Halloween and "cultural appropriation".

[muichimotsu]

When you say, "the whole, you're once again classifying white people as a whole, and then attributing things to them that are derogatory toward those who are black. You're being quite hypocritical in doing that while talking against white people doing the same.

No, I'm talking about the whole as a set, mathematically, I'm pretty sure that distinction is part of the lexicon, your ignorance is not an excuse for strawmanning me again

Some white people do this, the whole is responsible vicariously in the idea that this is a cultural behavior and can be corrected. And white people are derogatory against even other whites, but that's far less common than treating people of color in general as dangerous, foreign or otherwise outside of their particular in group

Again, I ask you to give specific examples.

I'm not doing your homework for you, do research into this and find counterexamples instead of playing burden tennis with me when this is the information age to begin with and thus, if you think this is somehow cherry picking, then point out the inconsistency instead of demanding evidence that has impossible standards in the first place with your dismissal of racism as only being individual and never systemic

They shift with "re-imagining" as the woke like to say.

Pretty sure that's not how linguistics work, but you'd have to cite that and haven't even tried, just making generalizations based on your out of touch perspective

Nor do your claims about "white privilege" hold any water if you can't even be specific about what you're talking about--or come up with any remedies to the supposed issue. All you've done is imply that people who are white need to be ashamed of who they are based on their skin color as a way to virtue signal, and that's no solution at all. It only justifies racism of a different flavor

I'm saying that white people have subconscious culturally conditioned ideas about black people that inform various decisions they make, even in general interactions (like you can find with an easy Youtube search on racist rants or driving while black, etc), let alone in settings that would demand more professional and neutral application instead of preferential treatment towards white people, as if they're also being "fair" and have no biases at all.

The remedy is taking a step back from a culture that favors whiteness in terms of representation in politics, entertainment, etc, and think that maybe white people shouldn't complain about any changes to something they find as traditionally white based on some objection to an imagined ideology they can't substantiate except with conspiratorial paranoia

No, it isn't remotely about shame in regards to skin color, but treating skin color as something that should be embraced in terms of the diversity and not used as a pretense for enabling biases that are damaging. And don't pull this idea that white people should be proud of their skin color, that's not what the term always means, same as with gay pride, it is not arrogance, it is self respect against a culture that marginalizes them by treating them as if they are less important. Or do you think your experience of seeing "more gays" means they are represented remotely equitably to straight people?[/QUOTE]

 

[muichimotsu]

1) Expressing oneself doesn't have to reflect anything about others. That's why it's called "expressing oneself".

2)Everyone, regardless of their race, has the "privilege" (or more accurately, the right) to express themselves as they see fit. Therefore, a black person can freely express themselves just as a white person can. There's nothing "privilege" about it regarding being white.

Actually it does when you're utilizing something that you have surface level understanding of at best or cannot in good conscience wear if you had proper knowledge of its cultural significance. People's expressions are not in a vacuum, how can you justify that kind of idiocy?

Privilege and right are not the same thing sociologically or legally, I never used the term in the way you're trying to skew it towards

Actually there is privilege in the sense that we will tend to treat white people differently when they do the same thing a black person does, or we try to make it color blind, as if there is never bias in our regard towards one group over another. We're not in a cultural vacuum, as I emphasized above

How would you suggest taking away a person's freedom to express themselves if it doesn't fit with your ideas of what limits should be placed on it?

Because freedom of conduct legally speaking is not absolute, much as you'd like it to be. There can be offense, no one said otherwise, but acting like offense is just something to be resigned to is the kind of attitude that persisted in enabling Jim Crow or slavery as a whole, because you don't want to think that freedom should ever be restricted except when it personally affects you or your in group, the height of selfishness

There is such a thing as a free market of ideas and social consequences in terms of participation that is offensive. Acting like that is the same as government involvement is patently ignorant to how private entities like Twitter or Youtube can, legally, censor, because they are not beholden in the same manner as the government is to the constitutional protections, since you agree to follow their rules when you join the site.

 

[Ken-1122]

What you said is that an institution is somehow in a vacuum independent of the people that run it, which is insane and inaccurate to boot

Okay; you seem to hold the belief that if an institution employs an individual who holds racist views, the entire institution becomes racist. Is that correct? Example; if a police department has 2,000 officers and only 1 officer is racist, would you label the entire Police Department (institution) racist? Even if the department (institution) has rules that forbid his racist behavior, you would call the department racist; is that correct?

 

[Strathos]

No, white people are more commonly guilty of it, that doesn't mean it is impossible otherwise, because cultural appropriation in its common definition explicitly references a majority culture, which is not going to be white people, as in America. Japanese don't do cultural appropriation to my knowledge, but it's not impossible given the homogeneous nature of the culture and even ignorance that results from that in a way that makes America look embarrassing with our supposed diversity, yet also enabling people to just do whatever they want culturally because of that "freedom" that is confused as liberty.

But I asked you for a hypothetical example of Chinese people in China (surely the majority culture) being guilty of this and you said it couldn't happen.

 

[Junia]

Eh, I'd question most of those, Tiana doesn't really count with her "costume", versus Moana in particular, and even Mulan possibly, because it's not just a general outfit, it's culturally specific and has meaning to that culture a white person isn't going to have the context for.

And no one said blackface was the sole determinant factor, the costume itself can be just as problematic

Ok by that logic a white or asian person silent dress as Cinderella or Snow White

Also are Asians systemically oppressed or. Blacks are ???

 

[Junia]

Actually I'm pretty sure there is scientific basis for sexual orientation AND gender identity, you insisting there isn't doesn't make it so, nor does selectively ignoring scientific investigations that don't fit your presupposition. Bring your evidence, or I don't need to take these claims seriously, merely the ramblings of someone who suffers from Dunning Kruger

don't known what Dunning Kruger is

Am Not straight myself. not hetero. But I wasn't born this way

 

[Junia]

Okay, I'm pretty sure that's a cowboy hat and a suit, which isn't the same as stereotypical cowboy wear and I'm not even from the Southwest. That's a gross exaggeration from what you claimed, which is not remotely what this is, which is little different from Japanese wearing Western clothes: not all clothes are ethnic in nature, especially if we're talking about more specific things that have that element

I'm no fashion expert, but the exchange of culture in terms of a Western wearing, say, Japanese or Chinese clothes, is entirely different than the context where they just wear it because it's trendy or other such ideas that are only okay because of colonialist ideas, where white people are seemingly just permitted to take ethnic clothes, like, say, samurai armor for another Japanese example that's more directly cultural, and claim it's appreciation instead of appropriation.

I

Japanese and ?Chinese are not systematically oppressed in the way black people are

they do face racism but it is not systemic in the same way. Career wise and education wise, they aren't disadvantaged.

I see nothing wrong in wearing a kimono or a sari to a costume party because think this 're pretty and I admire Asian cultures

for something to be appropriation the culture has to be a marginalised people and also derogatory to them .

Wearing a sari is same as wearing a Norwegian costume or Brazilian costume

 

[Junia]

Wouldn't wear a Bindi with my sari or mehndi henna tattoos to a costume party as those have a religious significance and would be disrespectful to rise who are Hindu or Sikh. I also wouldn't wear an Amish costume for that same reason though.


or a native American war bonnet, or anything of tribal significance.

But a print dress from Ghana with traditional Ghanian prints on it? Yes

A traditional Welsh costume complete with the black buckles hat? yes

A hippie costume even though I never been a hippie? Yes

I also would dress as a celebrity of colour of under a dressing as them rather than a stereotyped person of colour. E.g. !michael jackson. would I paint my face black of course but I would wear the costume because I wouldn't be going as a lack person but a celebrity whose music I admire, who happens to be black.

After all we cook food from other cultures, wear hairstyles from other cultures etc

 

[Junia]

I would say the above I listed are cultural sharing. I am not mocking these cultures or reducing them to a stereotype

In my country, England, the Scottish and the Irish were horrifically marginalised, denied housing a few decades ago and even today joked about it mocked. the Irish travellers in my town are treated appallingly and I have heard some awful comments made. I

Yet on St Patrick's day, our bars are packed with people of all races drinking guiness, eating potato and Irish sausage. Where is the outrage about that??

there isnt. Because, you know, the Irish have no issue with anyone drinking their Guinness or scoffing their potato farms and brack. Even though they still face much prejudice.

you could also say surely nobody who isn't of a n ancient Cetic heritage has any business celebrating halloween, anyway!

 

[Ken-1122]

I
Japanese and ?Chinese are not systematically oppressed in the way black people are

Black people are not systematically oppressed either.

 

[Aldebaran]

Some white people do this, the whole is responsible vicariously in the idea that this is a cultural behavior and can be corrected. And white people are derogatory against even other whites, but that's far less common than treating people of color in general as dangerous, foreign or otherwise outside of their particular in group

That's about as vague of a statement as you can get.

I'm not doing your homework for you, do research into this and find counterexamples instead of playing burden tennis with me when this is the information age to begin with and thus, if you think this is somehow cherry picking, then point out the inconsistency instead of demanding evidence that has impossible standards in the first place with your dismissal of racism as only being individual and never systemic

It's not my homework to do. You accuse white people of being racist and having white privilege, so it's up to you to prove it.

Pretty sure that's not how linguistics work, but you'd have to cite that and haven't even tried, just making generalizations based on your out of touch perspective

It's how it works with a movement that redefines words whenever it suits them.

I'm saying that white people have subconscious culturally conditioned ideas about black people that inform various decisions they make, even in general interactions (like you can find with an easy Youtube search on racist rants or driving while black, etc), let alone in settings that would demand more professional and neutral application instead of preferential treatment towards white people, as if they're also being "fair" and have no biases at all.

Subconscious, culturally conditioned? Come up with one to specifically discuss.

The remedy is taking a step back from a culture that favors whiteness in terms of representation in politics, entertainment, etc, and think that maybe white people shouldn't complain about any changes to something they find as traditionally white based on some objection to an imagined ideology they can't substantiate except with conspiratorial paranoia

More vagueness. But alright, how do I "step back from a culture"? You haven't even defined what that culture is, so it's not even defined what I'm to "step back" from.

No, it isn't remotely about shame in regards to skin color, but treating skin color as something that should be embraced in terms of the diversity and not used as a pretense for enabling biases that are damaging. And don't pull this idea that white people should be proud of their skin color, that's not what the term always means, same as with gay pride, it is not arrogance, it is self respect against a culture that marginalizes them by treating them as if they are less important. Or do you think your experience of seeing "more gays" means they are represented remotely equitably to straight people?

The way you're talking indicates that there's nothing specific that anyone can do to meet your requirements.

 

[muichimotsu]

That's about as vague of a statement as you can get.

So there's no shared responsibility at all now? Just all bets are off with your sense of being beholden only to your god?

It's not my homework to do. You accuse white people of being racist and having white privilege, so it's up to you to prove it.

If you don't even have the attitude to consider that you may be wrong, then we can't even get anywhere with evidence brought forth, because you're just going to take the dismissive attitude that it's fake news or other anti intellectual nonsense

It's how it works with a movement that redefines words whenever it suits them.

Funny how white supremacy can be covered up by talking about "patriotism" isn't it?

And maybe if we didn't treat words like they were absolutely concrete in terms of cultural context and usage it might help with discussions like rational people instead of ideologues

Subconscious, culturally conditioned? Come up with one to specifically discuss.

How has entertainment for the last 70+ years since TV's inception depicted black people for instance? You think that idea that they are more dangerous or savage isn't a subconscious idea in our heads, same as outdated depictions of Native Americans as being somehow out of touch with American values, but also in line in some roundabout fashion, so as not to be "racist" against them? Lone Ranger's sidekick comes to mind from the old serials. And as for blacks, the same idea applies, that culture instills certain ideas that people cannot separate in their mind from reality and that informs their behavior, treating black people like criminals or that they don't belong in a predominately white area

More vagueness. But alright, how do I "step back from a culture"? You haven't even defined what that culture is, so it's not even defined what I'm to "step back" from.

You consider that there are multiple cultures that influence you, for one, not just one

American culture is one manifestation of a "set of customs, traditions, and values of a society or community, such as an ethnic group or nation" It's not purely ethnic, there can be cultures associated even with things like those who enjoy vehicles, who enjoy art, etc. Do you deny that America culture, since its inception, has favored depictions of white people and made those not white as enemies or othered them?

The way you're talking indicates that there's nothing specific that anyone can do to meet your requirements

You think I expect perfection, that's a strawman, yet again. I expect people to have the humility to not regard their culture as absolutely superior or their ideals as above anyone elses, expecting the outsiders to assimilate or "they don't belong," the kind of hatred we still see today from those complaining about their political messiah being "cheated" of their "proper win"

 

[muichimotsu]

Black people are not systematically oppressed either.

Oh, boy, you really think your ancestors, especially if they were in America, weren't systematically oppressed by a culture that not only approved of slavery as a norm, but also had to do the 3/5 compromise when the constitution was written? I'm sensing some major historical ignorance or even outright revisionism, if not at least negationism, as if black people were treated so nicely by slaveowners and people, even after the Emancipation post Civil War, rather than the n word being used so casually (either of the n words, really)

 

[muichimotsu]

I would say the above I listed are cultural sharing. I am not mocking these cultures or reducing them to a stereotype

In my country, England, the Scottish and the Irish were horrifically marginalised, denied housing a few decades ago and even today joked about it mocked. the Irish travellers in my town are treated appallingly and I have heard some awful comments made. I

Yet on St Patrick's day, our bars are packed with people of all races drinking guiness, eating potato and Irish sausage. Where is the outrage about that??

there isnt. Because, you know, the Irish have no issue with anyone drinking their Guinness or scoffing their potato farms and brack. Even though they still face much prejudice.

you could also say surely nobody who isn't of a n ancient Cetic heritage has any business celebrating halloween, anyway!

I cannot speak to the issues in the UK, but I am aware that England in particular cops an attitude to the non English as if they are just accessories to the "real" country.

The outrage is not in the drinking, but the idea that Irish should be reduced to those stereotypes. And cultural exchange can happen there, I never denied that, but you're taking those examples and ignoring how the Irish, or even Catholics in a broader sense, were discriminated against in the early 20th century as immigrants, because they were seen as loyal to the church over country and other stereotypes that persisted even to JFK's election in the 60s.

Not sure Halloween as a tradition is strictly Celtic, but there's such a thing as cultural memesis and shifts. The idea of Christmas as involving Santa as we see him is pretty different from when St. Nicholas or Father Christmas was the association with the gift giving, same with Halloween in the ancient practices that may link back tangentially

 

[muichimotsu]

Wouldn't wear a Bindi with my sari or mehndi henna tattoos to a costume party as those have a religious significance and would be disrespectful to rise who are Hindu or Sikh. I also wouldn't wear an Amish costume for that same reason though.


or a native American war bonnet, or anything of tribal significance.

But a print dress from Ghana with traditional Ghanian prints on it? Yes

A traditional Welsh costume complete with the black buckles hat? yes

A hippie costume even though I never been a hippie? Yes

I also would dress as a celebrity of colour of under a dressing as them rather than a stereotyped person of colour. E.g. !michael jackson. would I paint my face black of course but I would wear the costume because I wouldn't be going as a lack person but a celebrity whose music I admire, who happens to be black.

After all we cook food from other cultures, wear hairstyles from other cultures etc

The bindi isn't always religious significance, but that is one common understanding, so that recognition is why we don't do it, along with the ethnic aspect

I don't think hippies are an ethnic culture, so you missed the mark when you started referencing that

The problem is with blackface it entails explicit discrimination and marginalization of black people, that's not okay in pretty much any modern culture because of that understanding where cultures in the 1700s or so were able to get away with minstrel shows making black people out to be buffoonish stereotypes because black people were enslaved and otherwise treated like less than white people

 

[muichimotsu]

I

Japanese and ?Chinese are not systematically oppressed in the way black people are

they do face racism but it is not systemic in the same way. Career wise and education wise, they aren't disadvantaged.

I see nothing wrong in wearing a kimono or a sari to a costume party because think this 're pretty and I admire Asian cultures

for something to be appropriation the culture has to be a marginalised people and also derogatory to them .

Wearing a sari is same as wearing a Norwegian costume or Brazilian costume

In America, you really think Asian people were treated fairly instead of like garbage because of Trump's rhetoric that the virus was Chinese in nature rather than merely in origin, making a xenophobic association

Asian people face difficulties in the same fashion as blacks in regards to marginalization, it's merely less pronounced than how blacks have the prominent stereotypes. I remember an Asian stereotype in a John Wayne movie that, I don't believe had any other people of color in it period, and he colored my associations with Asians, even subconsciously. To say that isn't damaging suggests that your perspective of how you think minorities have experienced life in majority white cultures is pretty skewed and clouded

I don't think people are universal in agreeing as to what is culturally significant, which is where we get contentions about dreads worn by white people as cultural appropriation when I'd say it's cultural exchange arguably.

Saris, kimonos, yukata, some Russian fashion, those could reasonably fit into cultural exchange, I'm not opposed to that, I don't think I ever stated explicitly I was opposed to that. But the problem is still the idea of a majority culture in general: marginalization is secondary to their minority status when we're talking about their treatment, which is what can be assessed as marginalization.

 

[muichimotsu]

Okay; you seem to hold the belief that if an institution employs an individual who holds racist views, the entire institution becomes racist. Is that correct? Example; if a police department has 2,000 officers and only 1 officer is racist, would you label the entire Police Department (institution) racist? Even if the department (institution) has rules that forbid his racist behavior, you would call the department racist; is that correct?

No, if an institution does not do anything to correct the ideas that are treated as "normal" in any institution or cultural behavior, then they are culpable in enabling it. That should be almost common sense, but that word seems to mean virtually nothing when people point to things being obvious and don't support it with any kind of evidence

I would have to make the distinction between a cop having prejudicial racist ideas that are based in the notion of blacks being inferior versus a cop that is expressing ideas that are normalized in America with the entertainment industry having a history of depicting black people in damaging stereotypes, same as with other minorities I can distinctly remember in my childhood from films that, culturally, would've informed my perspective in some fashion, about non white people.

The "rules" in terms of police enforcement on their own group are a whole other subject as to the favoritism they show to their own as regards disciplinary action against racist behavior in the first place. They could just be paying lipservice to the "punishment" and continue on with the status quo because changing how they do things would be "too hard" and reduce the goons they could hire to enforce the law in ways that are disgusting in general, the racist aspects just a big manifestation of that corruption that goes to the root. Doesn't mean it always manifests, but it doesn't mean it's gone either

Are we even on the same page about how racism is not just one thing, it's a spectrum in how it manifests and how it is classified? I'm no expert, remotely, but I'm not going to just assume that because I think racism means the kind of stuff the KKK advocates doesn't mean that is the ONLY thing that can be called racism.

 

[muichimotsu]

don't known what Dunning Kruger is

Am Not straight myself. not hetero. But I wasn't born this way

Your sexual orientation is arguably inborn, your behavior is distinct in the choice about using it

As for Dunning-Kruger, I'm not doing the research for you, I'll point you in the direction with this rough definition, "a cognitive bias in which people with low ability at a task overestimate their ability." In this case, it's your idea about knowing things about a subject and unfortunately being overconfident in how certain you are on that.

 

[muichimotsu]

Ok by that logic a white or asian person silent dress as Cinderella or Snow White

Also are Asians systemically oppressed or. Blacks are ???

White culture is not systematically oppressed, first off, because it's the majority in terms of Disney princesses, so there isn't cultural appropriation there and no one but overly fragile white supremacists would complain about that, like the Little Mermaid's live action actress being black.

No one bats an eye at a black girl dressing as Cinderella because the idea is that Cinderella almost transcends the racial boundaries as a concept (there are black and ASian folktales parallelling Cinderella, for instance). But dressing in Tiana's outfit as a white woman would be fine in my book because it isn't something explicitly related to black culture, and Tiana is a part of Louisiana's culture as manifests with black AND white people.

 

[muichimotsu]

But I asked you for a hypothetical example of Chinese people in China (surely the majority culture) being guilty of this and you said it couldn't happen.

Are you not aware of how homogeneous the Chinese culture is? The idea of cultural appropriation is almost overshadowed by the fact that minorities are dehumanized or treated like garbage in the first place. Trying to apply the criticism of American culture in particular to China is disingenous and ignorant of the vast differences in how the cultures manifest the idea of norms and even the notions of cultural exchange (Tibet and Taiwan are, for instance, just assimilated in even though they don't consent to it)