Halloween and "cultural appropriation".

[muichimotsu]

And in China, Chinese culture is dominant and American culture is a minority. So your objection makes no sense.

You're still assuming that 1) it even happens and 2) that it's applicable to American culture's problem, since I don't think China tends to do Halloween that much.

I never said it was impossible, I said it's a category error and a red herring fallacy to boot, because it's distracting from the focus of the discussion by bringing up some counter example, which really just goes into a tu quoque, as if that makes those particular Halloween costumes any rational person could take a step back and think, "Hey, maybe this isn't okay," versus doubling down to defend it based on tradition or some notion that it isn't denigrating

 

[Strathos]

You're still assuming that 1) it even happens and 2)

With 1.4 billion people, I would be shocked if it didn't happen.

that it's applicable to American culture's problem, since I don't think China tends to do Halloween that much.

Young people there are strongly influenced by American culture.

China's Youth Admire America Far More than We Knew

I never said it was impossible, I said it's a category error and a red herring fallacy to boot, because it's distracting from the focus of the discussion by bringing up some counter example, which really just goes into a tu quoque, as if that makes those particular Halloween costumes any rational person could take a step back and think, "Hey, maybe this isn't okay," versus doubling down to defend it based on tradition or some notion that it isn't denigrating

Dressing up like an 'Arab terrorist' or a stereotypical native American is certainly problematic, but a 'ninja'? Modern depictions of ninjas as people wearing all black actually came from theater, and the historical evidence that 'ninjas' as we imagined them ever even existed is pretty much absent.

And no one worships the Ancient Egyptian gods anymore. Egypt has been Muslim for over 1000 years. Who is going to be offended by a costume of something that no longer exists and no modern people identify with?

 

[RDKirk]

Have you ever seen a black person dress up as a cowboy? The cowboys of the Old West were typically white, and the cowboy is stereotypically white. Should a black person dressing up as a cowboy be deemed as being offensive to white people?

You don't seem to know much about the history of cowboys. More than 25% of cowboys were always black or Mexican. That's like claiming a US soldier is "typically white and stereotypically white" and that if I dressed up like my great-grandfather, or my grandfather, or my father...or even in my own uniform...that would be offensive to white people.

For that matter, I have Oklahoma cowboys in my own family. The last cowboy in my family hung up his spurs in the early 70s. So what...my family is "offensive to white people?"

 

[RDKirk]

For one thing, the term is so fluid that it's not easy to know exactly what "cultural appropriation" actually is.

For another, the term is never applied evenly but just against whichever group the speaker wants to vilify.

And lastly, what difference does it make if someone or other does do something that might be considered "cultural appropriation?"

If somebody else pioneered a cultural style, it wasn't patented (!) and might better, if everyone were thinking straight, be considered a compliment rather than an offense when others picked it up.

So what costume do you want to wear that you're being prevented from wearing?

Hazelponi has already correctly pointed out that Christ has no dog in this fight. Do you?

 

[RDKirk]

Unfortunately, that is what's happened. And it's not as though there's a counterbalancing force keeping "cultural appropriation" to some reasonable level (as you would like to see). That's because the rest of us who aren't out to destroy someone's reputation because he wore a hair style that we consider "ours" to approve of or not...don't play that game.

It's an extreme example, but if someone were to say that if you don't like Antifa burning cities, why don't you just burn some others of your own choosing?? No, it's not something we think ought to be going on, period.

There is such a thing as egregious cultural appropriation to different degrees.

And there are also absurd claims of cultural appropriation. IMO, people get to like things. A white guy wearing dreds doesn't bother me; people get to like things. A white woman wearing braids doesn't bother me; people get to like things.

There was a famous white hair stylist who claimed to have invented Zune curls...that did bother me. OTOH, back in the 80s, Paul Simon openly acknowledged that he found the inspiration for the album that revived his career in African music during his visit to Africa. He even film some videos with one of those African groups and produced a couple of albums for them. That didn't bother me.

But I think you have to look hard to find anyone who has actually suffered any permanent damage from accusations of "cultural appropriation," and it's nowhere near being declared criminal. It's really only effective to the degree one's has based one's image on Twitter. Outside the Twitterverse, it's mostly a nothingburger.

 

[RDKirk]

First, we should probably determine if "cultural stereotyping" is anything more than just one more bit of newspeak created by some people in order to restrict perfectly normal practices by other people whom they do not like.

A Halloween costume is, by definition, not a "normal practice."

 

[RDKirk]

Are you saying that white people who are offended have to just accept it, but black people are somehow entitled to having their complaints about being offended addressed?

Did you give a valid example of offensive cultural appropriate of white culture by non-white groups? Hopefully you realize "cowboy" isn't it.

Maybe black people wearing kilts and playing bagpipes. Or Asians wearing lederhosen.

 

[RDKirk]

People wearing a costume on Halloween isn't about someone thinking they understand the character they're dressing up as. People put on costumes for fun. Otherwise, would you have a problem with a black girl dressing up as Frozen's Elsa? We know darned well that a black girl dressing up as Elsa isn't wrong. The response from the BLM type would be, "You can't tell a black girl how she's allowed to express herself!" However, a white person certainly can, apparently.

Does Elsa actually wear a culturally identifiable clothing? Which Elsa...the Disney Elsa or the "real" Elsa?

 

[RDKirk]

Irrelevant: minstrel shows were probably not run since about 100 years ago, that doesn't mean blackface has lost the impact of demeaning and insulting black people by the sense that it's a face you can just put on, when it's race, not something that should be regarded like a costume or anything to be made light of in regards to black people being expected to just "deal with it" when people treated them like a joke

Minstrel shows in particular faded out about 100 years ago, but blackface as popular entertainment for white audiences in film and television persisted into my own memory.

 

[RDKirk]

My point is that if the cultural context changes, it's counterproductive to still make a huge deal out of things that were only offensive in the past.

"The past" needs at least to be longer ago than anyone currently alive.

 

[RDKirk]

Only American culture does not marginalize black people...we are a mix of every culture race and religion.

Only in an alternate universe is that true.

 

[RDKirk]

"Pretends"? Excuse me, but this is her father, economist Donald J. Harris. He is from Jamaica. He is most definitely a black person, and so Kamala Harris is definitely a black person.

When Kamala Harris was born, she was definitely considered black.

But Kamala would certainly get nowhere claiming to be white...or even Indian. Indians shunned her mother for marrying a Jamaican, and they certainly never accepted Kamala as one of their own. In the days of her childhood, "black" was the only acceptable claim she could make.

Only since the 1990s has that been considered up for debate, particularly among black people. "Bi-racial" was not a thing until the 1990s.

 

[muichimotsu]

Fair enough, and if you think I suffer as much as you, you seem to assume you know about my lived experience more than I do.

Where did I remotely claim I suffered as much as you? The problem isn't purely about suffering in an explicit sense, but societal bias that would, given circumstances, favor me over you in terms of the exact same situation given to the same judge. It's not impossible there could be fair treatment, but expecting that is naive when the evidence doesn't seem to show things are changing effectively

I was talking about racist gang members attacking you for being white.

Are you sure they're attacking me because I'm white or because I'm an easy mark potentially?

Really? So provide context that justifies white people having to enter through the back door.

I didn't say that was justified, I'm saying white people don't recognize their own privilege in how society treats them

If it was not racial targeting, why was only white people forced to enter through the back, and why was only white people forced to leave school?

You've never heard of an example through such experiments of this nature? The doll experiments come to mind, giving specific and preferential treatment in a particular context can illustrate the problems in society in a particular way, it isn't meant to be some perfect thing, especially when some people try to spin it as racist against white people when the treatment is not legislated or policy, it's a temporary situation meant to illustrate a problem by holding a mirror up to white people who think black people get off too easy or other nonsense

So you call this an inconvenience? You have lost all credibility when it comes to race issues IMO due to your double standard. If you were fair enough to admit racism is wrong regardless of who it is being directed at, I could respect that; but you can’t even to that! Instead you try to justify racism when it happens to white people by calling it an inconvenience. Shame.

It is an inconvenience, because it wasn't legislated or such, in which case, it would be objectionable, versus the context that you seem to think was permanent, when I'm pretty sure the story explains why they did it

I did the exact same thing you did, to make a point

But you still reduced it to race instead of considering it was a factor, which is distinct from my conclusion I made that this was somehow always about racism, when American society definitely has other systemic problems of prejudice against groups by a majority

Post #464 you said:

Are you being obtuse on purpose? The compromise was between white people who wanted to give black people the right to vote and those who didn’t.

Those were your exact words. The compromise had nothing to do with giving black people (slaves) the right to vote; you were wrong, you just too proud to admit it.

The 3/5 compromise was enabling racism, was it not? I'll admit I was mistaken on that, but I'm pretty sure the idea was still there in that black people were not treated fairly by white people in that context. Or are you fine with being considered 3/5 of a person?

No, the gangs are a result of no father in the house to give young boys the type of guidance necessary to become a productive young man. This is a cultural problem

And you think black people aren't more commonly affected by it because of how society treats them in terms of their issues with welfare, jobs, etc? Don't act like your experience is somehow the only one for black people,that's unfair

Racist satire is!

Satire of racism is not the same as racism masquerading as satire

I said nothing about special treatment, I said black people are considered the normal in this country. Try addressing what I said and quit making stuff up.

Prove it, when they still get relegated to supporting roles more often than not, even with just my experience. Do you have instances where this is the case or are you just thinking that because you see more black role models that makes it okay in regards to there still being more white representation by comparison?

Yeah; yeah; more empty claims, nothing to back them up. This is starting to become your M.O.

If it's wrong, then speak clearly in the first place instead of being patently vague to act like you won't take a side

 

[muichimotsu]

When Kamala Harris was born, she was definitely considered black.

But Kamala would certainly get nowhere claiming to be white...or even Indian. Indians shunned her mother for marrying a Jamaican, and they certainly never accepted Kamala as one of their own. In the days of her childhood, "black" was the only acceptable claim she could make.

Only since the 1990s has that been considered up for debate, particularly among black people. "Bi-racial" was not a thing until the 1990s.

So what? Doesn't make the identity invalid, you're appealing to mere tradition as if it makes anything new useless and not worth anything in discourse when that's purely this idea that change is always a threat because it might make people rethink traditions

 

[RDKirk]

She part indian, part jamaican. American blacks are offended that she calls herself black for political purposes. But the point was, it shows how being considered black is an advantage in America today.

Very few of us are in position to find it an advantage.

Reminds me of the Chris Rock sketch where he asks the white men in his audience how many would want to be him. No white man raises his hand...even though Chris Rock is rich.

When a significant proportion of white men would rather be black, you'll have a point to make.

 

[RDKirk]

Does Pence emphasize his ethnicity to give himself some political advantage? You are still missing the point. Would she emphasize being black if there was biase among most Americans against blacks as people here are trying to claim. Systemic racism doesn't make any sense unless you can illustrate that minorities have a disadvantage. If it's actually an advantage politically or in getting a job, then there's no biase that can be shown.

Outliers don't define the bell curve.

 

[RDKirk]

Black isn't a race... it's a color. Glad we agree now. So a light skinned person of mixed blood ain't black.

Back in the 90s I heard a cogent quote: "It's the majority group that defines race." That's a good working concept. In America, white people have traditionally defined who was white and who was not. If a person could be observed as not quite white, he was deemed not not white. Or if there was some official record or memory of there being non-whites in his ancestry--even if he was visually white--he was considered non-white. Since whites commanded law, commerce, and society, theirs was the only opinion that mattered.

White people invented terms like "octaroon" and "quadroon" to make sure even the lightest-skinned persons were still identifiable as "not white." White people invented the "one drop rule," which was still in judicial use all the way into the 80s.

"Bi-racial" wasn't a social consideration until the 1990s. Interestingly, to this day there is even a division within people who are biracial in how they identify themselves. Biracial people born before the 1980s will tend to identify as black. That's because white society identified them as black in their childhoods. Prior to the 70s, a white person who married a black spouse was treated essentially like black people themselves, and they had to teach their biracial children to accept being treated as black by society. The major change was that in the 1970s leading into the 80s, white people who married black spouses began to be allowed to keep their "white" cards. That's when "biracial" became an option.

But even more interestingly, to this day the race of the mother also counts: Biracial children with black mothers will tend to identify themselves as black, but biracial children with white mothers will tend to identify themselves as biracial or even, if their features allow it, identify as white.

 

[RDKirk]

They turned against her when they found out she was actually white. It turned out that you gotta be black to be a leader of a black organization. Being white is apparently a disqualification.
It's a pity I had to explain all this to you.

Actually, you don't. The NAACP has actually had a good number of white members in leadership positions. The problem was that she misrepresented herself.

 

[RDKirk]

Why are Christians even dressing up for Halloween anyway? Let's start there.

Back in the 80s, I had a chance to spend a few hours working night shift in the Pentagon with a man who had been one of the embassy workers taken hostage by Iranian radicals and held prisoner for nearly a year.

He told me that one of his Iranian captors asked him one day about the curious American observance of Halloween. This American wasn't particularly religious, so he didn't get into the religious significance, he just described what modern day Americans did on the night of October 31.

As he described costumes and such, he said the Iranian's eyes got wider and wider. Suddenly the Iranian exclaimed, "American Christians dress your children as demons?"

 

[RDKirk]

There are plenty of Youtube videos I could show you where they make their hatred quite clear, but they always use their native words that can't be posted here, or I'd be happy to give you some links.

I'll bet most of those "native words" are "culturally appropriated" from Angles and Teutons.