Halloween and "cultural appropriation".

[Ken-1122]

Oh, boy, you really think your ancestors, especially if they were in America, weren't systematically oppressed by a culture that not only approved of slavery as a norm,

Oh my ancestors were oppressed, but I’m not

but also had to do the 3/5 compromise when the constitution was written?

What is this 3/5 compromise that you speak of that black people had to do?

I'm sensing some major historical ignorance or even outright revisionism, if not at least negationism, as if black people were treated so nicely by slaveowners and people, even after the Emancipation post Civil War, rather than the n word being used so casually (either of the n words, really)

The person I was responding to was not talking about a million years ago, they were talking about today. Today black people as a race are not oppressed in the US.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I've never dressed up for Halloween, but I suppose I could, if really convinced or motivated, dress up in a traditional military attire from the Victorian Era. That sense of European aesthetics is something I find naturally appealing. Or maybe even a crusader outfit. Yet I wonder if by doing that I would be offending the same people who decry cultural appropriation because I am not being diverse enough and would be wearing the outfit of (in their opinion) a horrible civilization. Seems like there's no pleasing those sorts of people.

Then again, I don't follow the modern religion of political correctness or political liberalism. I would be against someone dressing up and mocking Jesus, though I knew I couldn't do anything to stop them. The cultural capital for Christians to expect that simply isn't there these days.

I think what we're seeing in these attempts to police Halloween costumes via social per pressure is an attempt at imposing new social values. It is wrong to wear a Ninja costume because that belongs to the Japanese and is part of their cultural heritage and not yours.

I suppose I simply don't get it. Seems like an inverse of the charactitures that we have of fundamentalists who oppose costumes based on ghosts or zombies. Ultimately it's about grabbing power and trying to shape society in some direction or another.

 

[Ken-1122]

No, if an institution does not do anything to correct the ideas that are treated as "normal" in any institution or cultural behavior, then they are culpable in enabling it.

No; I’m not talking about ideas treated as “normal”, I’m talking about racist ideas and attitudes. If the institution has rules against these ideas, attitudes, and behaviors, yet someone employs them anyway, would you claim this an example of institutional racism?

I would have to make the distinction between a cop having prejudicial racist ideas that are based in the notion of blacks being inferior versus a cop that is expressing ideas that are normalized in America with the entertainment industry having a history of depicting black people in damaging stereotypes,

I’m not talking about history, I’m talking about today. Are you suggesting it is normal for the entertainment industry to depict black people in damaging stereotypes today? Can you give examples of this?

 

[muichimotsu]

Oh my ancestors were oppressed, but I’m not

Yeah, that's cute, thinking that because you live in modern times, there's no biases against you whatsoever that American culture has encouraged for centuries. I'm sure you think your experience is typical of most black people, but I'm pretty sure you don't get to speak for all of your race anymore than I speak for all of mine, because I'm willing to admit whites are biased and prejudiced in one form or another, while you seem to just think we all treat black people equally all the time, rather than having some perception of amicability that isn't the same as equality under the law or culture

What is this 3/5 compromise that you speak of that black people had to do?

Are you being obtuse on purpose? The compromise was between white people who wanted to give black people the right to vote and those who didn't. Black people didn't have a say in it because white people, as you already agreed, oppressed black people

The person I was responding to was not talking about a million years ago, they were talking about today. Today black people as a race are not oppressed in the US.

Yeah, and all those police brutality incidents had NOTHING to do with perceptions about black people by law enforcement. Come on, you're pushing any sense of credibility if you acknowledge race, but don't even seem to understand remotely what racism consists of, which is not one phenomena we can both agree was bad and then selectively throw out anything else to make excuses

 

[muichimotsu]

No; I’m not talking about ideas treated as “normal”, I’m talking about racist ideas and attitudes. If the institution has rules against these ideas, attitudes, and behaviors, yet someone employs them anyway, would you claim this an example of institutional racism?

More goalpost shifting by just ignoring racism as anything more than rules even when you admit that racism can manifest in ideas and attitudes, which don't have to be laws. The blatant contradiction is palpable, like you're trying to make apologies for a blatantly racist white supremacist that treats blacks unfairly by saying, "Well, at least we're not slaves," as if the biased ideas that persist today indicate some progress that isn't just superficial at best

Racist ideas can be treated as normal, even if it's more subconscious cultural conditioning through entertainment

Yes, because the institution is not doing the proper protocol in making sure these people don't slip through, which involves better vetting of their candidates beyond, "Oh, they can shoot a gun good and beat people up, they're fine,"

I’m not talking about history, I’m talking about today. Are you suggesting it is normal for the entertainment industry to depict black people in damaging stereotypes today? Can you give examples of this?

History reflects into the present, you can't seriously suggest those ideas are not prevalent in some form or fashion, even if they aren't as accepted as they were before.

You think Transformers 3's racist stereotypes with Skids and Mudflap weren't demeaning to black people? Or Michael Bay using Anthony Anderson as a glorified stereotype of how black people are in the first Transformers film?

Acting like there aren't damaging stereotypes is damaging in itself, the same as the color blindness that enables racist ideas by being in denial that the differences about race exist, even if only by ignorant observation

 

[Ken-1122]

Yeah, that's cute, thinking that because you live in modern times, there's no biases against you whatsoever that American culture has encouraged for centuries.

Of course there are some people in this country that are biased against me; just like there are some people who are biased against you! Does this mean we are both oppressed? No; because there aren't enough of those biased people in power to oppress us.

Are you being obtuse on purpose? The compromise was between white people who wanted to give black people the right to vote and those who didn't. Black people didn't have a say in it because white people, as you already agreed, oppressed black people

Please explain this compromise that you speak of. What year did all of this happen?

Yeah, and all those police brutality incidents had NOTHING to do with perceptions about black people by law enforcement.

According to the FBI there are far more police brutality incidents against white people by law enforcement than blacks. Does this have something to do with perceptions against white people?

 

[Ken-1122]

Yes, because the institution is not doing the proper protocol in making sure these people don't slip through, which involves better vetting of their candidates beyond,

It is impossible to vet to the point that not a single person ever gets through who doesn't meet those standards. No industry is capable of doing what you insist must be done in order for the institution to not be labeled racist by your definition. This is where we disagree.

You think Transformers 3's racist stereotypes with Skids and Mudflap weren't demeaning to black people? Or Michael Bay using Anthony Anderson as a glorified stereotype of how black people are in the first Transformers film?

I didn't see Transformers. Would you mind explaining what happened?

 

[Strathos]

Are you not aware of how homogeneous the Chinese culture is? The idea of cultural appropriation is almost overshadowed by the fact that minorities are dehumanized or treated like garbage in the first place. Trying to apply the criticism of American culture in particular to China is disingenous and ignorant of the vast differences in how the cultures manifest the idea of norms and even the notions of cultural exchange (Tibet and Taiwan are, for instance, just assimilated in even though they don't consent to it)

What kind of excuse is this? You're saying Chinese people are too racist to do something you're accusing Americans of being racist for doing?

 

[muichimotsu]

What kind of excuse is this? You're saying Chinese people are too racist to do something you're accusing Americans of being racist for doing?

I'm saying they have more fundamental issues of cultural assimilation that treats everything in a nationalist view versus America, where we have the inverse problem of thinking everything's fair game because "We're a melting pot," except that's thoroughly ignorant add colonialist on its face: ethnic cultures are not interchangeable or fads a white person can just use, unlike more general aspects of cultural exchange

 

[muichimotsu]

It is impossible to vet to the point that not a single person ever gets through who doesn't meet those standards. No industry is capable of doing what you insist must be done in order for the institution to not be labeled racist by your definition. This is where we disagree.

Then the proper response is not to put them on "leave", but fire them outright to send a message. Would you disagree with that aspect of addressing the issue versus the "slap on the wrist" treatment cops seem to get for abuse of power?

I didn't see Transformers. Would you mind explaining what happened?

Anthony Anderson's character is horribly stereotypical of black people being overly emotional or panicky, not to mention that he serves very little purpose in the story, more a token black character for the white viewers to just poke fun of implicitly. And I haven't even seen anything beyond 1, but Mudflap and Skids are really insulting in the "ghetto" or "urban" sterotypes of how white people seem to think black people talk.

 

[muichimotsu]

Of course there are some people in this country that are biased against me; just like there are some people who are biased against you! Does this mean we are both oppressed? No; because there aren't enough of those biased people in power to oppress us.

Not sure their bias is nearly as prevalent and it doesn't reflect the power dynamic aspect that most sociologists probably would agree is the element of systemic racism, not personal racism, like an extremist Black Panther who hates me because I'm white, which I'm pretty sure are a thing

Oppression involves a power structure, you can't separate that from the concept of oppression in itself. I'm not oppressed because I'm given the benefit of the doubt, I'm treated as the norm, much as I hate that fact of how this country still works. Even Barack Obama probably only got his position in part because people might've regarded him as biracial, not black, so he was still "white" enough, as it were. That's pure speculation on my part

Please explain this compromise that you speak of. What year did all of this happen?

Do you not have any knowledge about the constitution or America's racist past? My goodness, you keep acting like this stuff never happened or you somehow never heard of it, which is disappointing if you consider yourself even remotely some kind of expert or even well versed in history of America in regards to treatment of black people, and you speak about black people being oppressed, but don't know about something explicitly in the constitution for probably about 80 years before the 14th amendment superseded it

Here's the basic summary, I think you can do the rest of the research from there

"Three-fifths compromise, agreement between delegates from the Northern and the Southern states at the United States Constitutional Convention (1787) that three-fifths of the slave population would be counted for determining direct taxation and representation in the House of Representatives."

According to the FBI there are far more police brutality incidents against white people by law enforcement than blacks. Does this have something to do with perceptions against white people?

I'm no statistician, but I'm pretty sure this racism apologetic tactic has been debunked thoroughly, because we're talking per capita, not purely on a population basis where white people are still the majority demographic. That's like saying a group that has more representatives that has something happen must be targeted somehow rather than simply being more in the public eye or otherwise a potential target

But there's also a potential issue with what the FBI considers police brutality and there are varieties of intensity to it. Do you think a cop that uses excessive force that leads to a black person dying has the same commonality as with white people? And I mean excessive force physically, not the use of a firearm, which also potentially has more manifestation towards black people, but I can't be certain

 

[Strathos]

I'm saying they have more fundamental issues of cultural assimilation that treats everything in a nationalist view versus America, where we have the inverse problem of thinking everything's fair game because "We're a melting pot," except that's thoroughly ignorant add colonialist on its face: ethnic cultures are not interchangeable or fads a white person can just use, unlike more general aspects of cultural exchange

So you're saying they could do the same thing the article in the OP is criticizing Americans for and it would be fine?

 

[Ken-1122]

Then the proper response is not to put them on "leave", but fire them outright to send a message

The reason these people slip through the cracks is because they don’t let their racist behavior be known to the institution and other employees. Don’t assume the kind of stuff the KKK advocates is the ONLY thing that can be called racism

Not sure their bias is nearly as prevalent and it doesn't reflect the power dynamic aspect that most sociologists probably would agree is the element of systemic racism,

I’m sure it does!

not personal racism, like an extremist Black Panther who hates me because I'm white, which I'm pretty sure are a thing

Are we even on the same page about how racism is not just one thing, it's a spectrum in how it manifests and how it is classified?

Oppression involves a power structure, you can't separate that from the concept of oppression in itself. I'm not oppressed because I'm given the benefit of the doubt,

As am I

I'm treated as the norm, much as I hate that fact of how this country still works.

If you think because I’m black I am not treated as the norm, you have a lot to learn about how this country works.

Even Barack Obama probably only got his position in part because people might've regarded him as biracial, not black, so he was still "white" enough, as it were. That's pure speculation on my part

Barack Obama got his position because he identified as black; not biracial. had he looked and identified as white, he wouldn’t have stood a chance.
Remember Congressman Harold Ford jr, who became popular around the same time Barak Obama became popular, they were both young, biracial, excellent speakers, and seen as the future of the Democratic party, yet Obama went on to become President whereas Harold Ford sorta just faded away. Barak was darker skinned and looked more black than Harold Ford jr. Had Ford been darker skinned, perhaps he would have succeeded the way Barak did. That’s pure speculation on my part.

Do you not have any knowledge about the constitution or America's racist past? My goodness, you keep acting like this stuff never happened or you somehow never heard of it, which is disappointing if you consider yourself even remotely some kind of expert or even well versed in history of America in regards to treatment of black people, and you speak about black people being oppressed, but don't know about something explicitly in the constitution for probably about 80 years before the 14th amendment superseded it

Here's the basic summary, I think you can do the rest of the research from there

"Three-fifths compromise, agreement between delegates from the Northern and the Southern states at the United States Constitutional Convention (1787) that three-fifths of the slave population would be counted for determining direct taxation and representation in the House of Representatives."

Not THAT 3/5 compromise, the one you said my ancestors had to do when the constitution was written, and the one you said that was about whether or not black people should have the right to vote.

I'm no statistician, but I'm pretty sure this racism apologetic tactic has been debunked thoroughly, because we're talking per capita, not purely on a population basis where white people are still the majority demographic.

No we are not talking about per capita.

But there's also a potential issue with what the FBI considers police brutality and there are varieties of intensity to it.

I would trust the FBI stats over yours any day

Do you think a cop that uses excessive force that leads to a black person dying has the same commonality as with white people?

Because there are more white people, it is more common for a white person to die at the hands of the police than a black person; even though if you look at the media, you would think only black people die this way.

Anthony Anderson's character is horribly stereotypical of black people being overly emotional or panicky, not to mention that he serves very little purpose in the story, more a token black character for the white viewers to just poke fun of implicitly. And I haven't even seen anything beyond 1, but Mudflap and Skids are really insulting in the "ghetto" or "urban" sterotypes of how white people seem to think black people talk.

Did you see the movie "White Chicks"? How about "White men can't jump"? Did those movies offend you? If not, what is it about the portrayal of white people in those movies that you found acceptable? If you did find them offensive, how does those negative sterotypes stack up when compared to the characters you found offensive in the movie Transformers?

 

[muichimotsu]

So you're saying they could do the same thing the article in the OP is criticizing Americans for and it would be fine?

It wouldn't be the same thing, because the example given is entirely distinct in what it constitutes (it isn't cultural appropriation, because cowboy hats are not the same as a Native American headdress)

This whataboutism is just an attempt at tu quoque, a fallacious line of reasoning that ignores the fundamental problem involved with cultural appropriation, which is a dominant culture utilizing a minority culture in a particular fashion, versus cultural exchange

 

[muichimotsu]

The reason these people slip through the cracks is because they don’t let their racist behavior be known to the institution and other employees. Don’t assume the kind of stuff the KKK advocates is the ONLY thing that can be called racism

I never did, you seem to assume that racism has to be explicit to count when it can be implicit, through biased treatment and profiling

I’m sure it does!

You can be sure, but actually substantiate it or I don't need to take the bald assertions as anything worth recognizing

Are we even on the same page about how racism is not just one thing, it's a spectrum in how it manifests and how it is classified?

I feel like we are talking past each other on that a great deal, but it's a matter of how to even find agreement on what constitutes racism in the first place

As am I

Are you? Can you say that with absolute certainty? That no one would racially profile you in any part of America?

If you think because I’m black I am not treated as the norm, you have a lot to learn about how this country works.

Pretty sure blacks were thoroughly marginalized historically: you thinking it's gotten better is a matter of seeming ignorance of even basic history of things like minstrel shows, slaves suffering from what would seem to be Stockholm syndrome, etc.

Barack Obama got his position because he identified as black; not biracial. had he looked and identified as white, he wouldn’t have stood a chance.
Remember Congressman Harold Ford jr, who became popular around the same time Barak Obama became popular, they were both young, biracial, excellent speakers, and seen as the future of the Democratic party, yet Obama went on to become President whereas Harold Ford sorta just faded away. Barak was darker skinned and looked more black than Harold Ford jr. Had Ford been darker skinned, perhaps he would have succeeded the way Barak did. That’s pure speculation on my part.

Yeah, and now you're making it purely about race versus his policies, which is an unfair reductionist view of politics

At least you admit it's pure speculation. You think John Lewis got where he did because he was black or because he actually had good policies?

Not THAT 3/5 compromise, the one you said my ancestors had to do when the constitution was written, and the one you said that was about whether or not black people should have the right to vote.

Your ancestors didn't have a choice about the 3/5 compromise, they were barely recognized as human. And the right to vote would've been the Emancipation, as I recall, per the 14th amendment, that wasn't a compromise, that was a constitutional amendment.

No we are not talking about per capita.

Then you're potentially skewing the stats in favor of a preconception that isn't borne out by proper methodology

I would trust the FBI stats over yours any day

The stats are only as good as the methodology: or do you think numbers cannot be spun for a narrative?

Because there are more white people, it is more common for a white person to die at the hands of the police than a black person; even though if you look at the media, you would think only black people die this way.

Does it say die at the hands of police or violence at the hands of police? Police brutality works on a spectrum, the fundamental basis being, I think, an abuse of power

I never claimed only black people die this way, but police brutality /=/ only death by police, so that's a dishonest broadening to make the issue seem less racial in nature

Did you see the movie "White Chicks"? How about "White men can't jump"? Did those movies offend you? If not, what is it about the portrayal of white people in those movies that you found acceptable? If you did find them offensive, how does those negative sterotypes stack up when compared to the characters you found offensive in the movie Transformers?

White people can be stereotyped and it isn't the same primarily because we are the majority group. White Chicks, from what I recall, can be argued as more satire and parody, because, you know, white people are seen as the norm and have a fragility when their privilege is called into question

I can find stereotypes mocking white people acceptable because I don't have the marginalized status black people have and continue to have in American culture with regards to stereotypes that are harmful versus the general depiction where white people tended to be heroic, any bad examples reducible to character flaws and not associated to their race, unlike how black people were treated like accessories for a white majority movie, tokenizing them.

You seem to think that everyone is treated equally in America, when that isn't the case just on the same statistics I'm pretty sure you would accept on their face merely because they fit your perspective, but suddenly something opposing comes up and it's wrong because you don't think the standards are good enough. Can that not also apply to your stats you bring up?

Are you really going to claim white and black people got the same treatment in entertainment even when it was Jim Crow law, like with James Baskett who was given an Oscar for his depiction of Uncle Remus in Song of the South and couldn't even attend the premiere in Georgia because of segregation?

That sounds like equal treatment to you from the entertainment industry that treated him like a chuckling stereotype to put forward their idea that white people weren't really racist back in the Antebellum south, that black people were treated "fine"

 

[muichimotsu]

I've never dressed up for Halloween, but I suppose I could, if really convinced or motivated, dress up in a traditional military attire from the Victorian Era. That sense of European aesthetics is something I find naturally appealing. Or maybe even a crusader outfit. Yet I wonder if by doing that I would be offending the same people who decry cultural appropriation because I am not being diverse enough and would be wearing the outfit of (in their opinion) a horrible civilization. Seems like there's no pleasing those sorts of people.

The problem is that European culture is not appropriated by a majority culture, given that they were colonialists that treated the world as if they could just step over everyone else, based in no small part on manifest destiny and the like. You can wear that culture's clothes, but trying to suggest they aren't horrible at all is blatantly dishonest and historical negationism

Then again, I don't follow the modern religion of political correctness or political liberalism. I would be against someone dressing up and mocking Jesus, though I knew I couldn't do anything to stop them. The cultural capital for Christians to expect that simply isn't there these days.

Yeah, nice try to regard those as religions, when that stretches the meaning of the term to nebulous levels. You don't have to agree with it, but characterizing it to even the playing field dishonestly is a faulty tactic

If you don't care about offense at all, then you don't have a horse in the game at all, because you seem to regard religion and ethnicity as the same, when they're not remotely. Someone offending your sensibilities in mocking a religious figure is not the same as taking something that is an ethnic identity of significance and using it like a costume that is trendy. The former is satire or parody, the latter is demonstrable cultural appropriation, which is not the same as cultural exchange, requiring a sense of equal understanding and appreciation of the culture versus treating it casually

I think what we're seeing in these attempts to police Halloween costumes via social per pressure is an attempt at imposing new social values. It is wrong to wear a Ninja costume because that belongs to the Japanese and is part of their cultural heritage and not yours.

Because establishing new social values is inherently wrong why? There can be a problem with it, but just going with an appeal to tradition is fallacious on its face.

So you admit that taking someone's cultural heritage is wrong and also act like that's common sense, but then criticize people for bringing up the same problem with Halloween costumes that you, in part, appear to agree are a bad thing? Seems a bit contradictory

I suppose I simply don't get it. Seems like an inverse of the charactitures that we have of fundamentalists who oppose costumes based on ghosts or zombies. Ultimately it's about grabbing power and trying to shape society in some direction or another.

That's not remotely the same thing, because their concern is based on some overly mutable and "innocent" mind of people that might take it too seriously and practice witchcraft or such.

And this isn't shaping society in any direction that is partisan or favoring a group, it's advocating basic conscientiousness of a majority group (white people) towards minorities in how they treat them, recognizing that, partly, those actions are reinforcing marginalization of people of color as tokens to be used when it's convenient and appeal to in an attempt to brush off allegations of racism ("I have black friends").

 

[Ken-1122]

You can be sure, but actually substantiate it or I don't need to take the bald assertions as anything worth recognizing

How about if you substantiate your claim that those biased against me cause me more harm than those biased against you.

Are you? Can you say that with absolute certainty? That no one would racially profile you in any part of America?

Can you? I know some neighborhoods where you might get attacked just for being white!

Pretty sure blacks were thoroughly marginalized historically:

Not talking about history, I’m talking about today. Below are a couple of examples of white people being marginalized today.
VIDEO: UC Berkeley Students Violently Stop White People from Crossing Bridge

I Love My Freedom Store

Yeah, and now you're making it purely about race versus his policies, which is an unfair reductionist view of politics

Didn’t you make it about race too?

Your ancestors didn't have a choice about the 3/5 compromise,

My ancestors weren’t affected by the 3/5 compromise

And the right to vote would've been the Emancipation, as I recall, per the 14th amendment, that wasn't a compromise, that was a constitutional amendment.

At first you said it was about black people having the right to vote. Are you changing it now?

Does it say die at the hands of police or violence at the hands of police? Police brutality works on a spectrum, the fundamental basis being, I think, an abuse of power

It is my understanding that black people in high crime neighborhoods do get harassment from the police at an extremely high rate, but much of it is due to gang activity. If you are wearing clothing associated with a specific gang, and you are in a rival gangs neighborhood, not only are you putting your life in danger of drive by shooting, but you are putting the lives of those around you, the house or business that might be in the line of fire when they shoot at you, etc. so when the cops see you wearing such clothing that puts so many lives in danger, you gonna get harassed. But this harassment is not a race thing, it’s a gang thing.

I never claimed only black people die this way, but police brutality /=/ only death by police, so that's a dishonest broadening to make the issue seem less racial in nature

I didn't say you claimed only black people died this way, I said this was the impression we get from the media.

White people can be stereotyped and it isn't the same primarily because we are the majority group.

No, it isn’t the same to YOU. You don’t get to speak for other white people who might be offended.

White Chicks, from what I recall, can be argued as more satire and parody,

Yeah’ so was Jumpin Jim Crow!

because, you know, white people are seen as the norm

Black people are seen as the norm also

I can find stereotypes mocking white people acceptable because I don't have the marginalized status black people have and continue to have in American culture

As a Black man, I don’t have a marginalized status either. I know you want to believe all black people are oppressed marginalized victims, and perceived as outside the norm, But I’m not! I’m better than that.

 

[muichimotsu]

How about if you substantiate your claim that those biased against me cause me more harm than those biased against you.

Harm is variable, you're expecting me to just invoke one particular outcome, but no, there could be several ways it occurs, I don't have enough information to make specific claims about you or even those who are biased against you, but if you think I suffer as much as you, you seem to assume you know about my lived experience more than I do.

Can you? I know some neighborhoods where you might get attacked just for being white!

Yeah, tu quoque doesn't undermine the point because it's still primarily affecting black people negatively even if they're "targeting" white people as you allege

Not talking about history, I’m talking about today. Below are a couple of examples of white people being marginalized today.
VIDEO: UC Berkeley Students Violently Stop White People from Crossing Bridge

I Love My Freedom Store

Yeah, isolated incidents that don't appear to take context into account, which was that this was about a protest, it was not racial targeting in any hateful fashion. If white people can't deal with that kind of inconvenience, they're too entitled to even recognize their own status of privilege relative to law enforcement

Didn’t you make it about race too?

I acknowledged race was an element: you keep assuming I have some short term memory loss and forget what I said, I didn't reduce this to race, you did

My ancestors weren’t affected by the 3/5 compromise

That doesn't mean it didn't affect black people in general, you're goalpost shifting again to make this about you, as if your experience means black people aren't oppressed at all

At first you said it was about black people having the right to vote. Are you changing it now?

You are being thoroughly dishonest and shifting what I said: 3/5 compromise didn't even acknowledge blacks full, it was dehumanizing and the Emancipation still didn't fix things because of Jim Crow laws, which you agree was bad. What does it take for you to acknowledge that America was built on the backs of exploiting people of color and favoring whites?

It is my understanding that black people in high crime neighborhoods do get harassment from the police at an extremely high rate, but much of it is due to gang activity. If you are wearing clothing associated with a specific gang, and you are in a rival gangs neighborhood, not only are you putting your life in danger of drive by shooting, but you are putting the lives of those around you, the house or business that might be in the line of fire when they shoot at you, etc. so when the cops see you wearing such clothing that puts so many lives in danger, you gonna get harassed. But this harassment is not a race thing, it’s a gang thing.

And those gangs are a result of a white privileged culture that treats blacks like an inconvenience and leaves them behind to foment this negative culture that others in this thread have brought up as some stereotype that all black people are somehow responsible for

I didn't say you claimed only black people died this way, I said this was the impression we get from the media.

Also from stats, which you seem to not care about if they disagree with you.

No, it isn’t the same to YOU. You don’t get to speak for other white people who might be offended.

Them being offended is not recognizing their privilege, because white people weren't mocked until it got to a point where people recognized that white people were treated with privilege for the longest time and need to be taken down a peg with their attitude

Yeah’ so was Jumpin Jim Crow!

Your point? Satire is not the same as racist stereotypes, it's a fine line, but it's not so variable we can just toss everything out as the former.

Black people are seen as the norm also

No they're not, you're selectively viewing stuff you can invoke to say black people are getting special treatment, when I already pointed out they had to work for that in any sense because the major networks didn't care to give them actual representation, which you don't seem to care about, only the stuff that fits your preconceptions that black people are "fine", when they're not

As a Black man, I don’t have a marginalized status either. I know you want to believe all black people are oppressed marginalized victims, and perceived as outside the norm, But I’m not! I’m better than that.

Wow, way to turn me into the bad guy and act like you're somehow superior because you want to act like racial bias in a society isn't a thing and reduce it purely to individuals, which is not only reductionist, but inaccurate given the evidence you apparently don't want to look at because it would change your whole perspective about thinking you and white people are so equal even though society doesn't manifest that remotely to the degree you assert.

You personally not feeling marginalized does not detract from demonstrable evidence you are, or even that many black people are: ignoring the whole by emphasizing the exceptions is more dishonest rhetoric that might work on some, but I'm not taking this bait to guilt me into bending over to this color blind nonsense that acts like American history wasn't rife with racism that has bled into the present in a different manner that has more invisible struggles that you refuse to acknowledge or make them about something else, making race little more than some abstraction which means nothing in real life

 

[Strathos]

It wouldn't be the same thing, because the example given is entirely distinct in what it constitutes (it isn't cultural appropriation, because cowboy hats are not the same as a Native American headdress)

This whataboutism is just an attempt at tu quoque, a fallacious line of reasoning that ignores the fundamental problem involved with cultural appropriation, which is a dominant culture utilizing a minority culture in a particular fashion, versus cultural exchange

And in China, Chinese culture is dominant and American culture is a minority. So your objection makes no sense.

 

[Ken-1122]

but if you think I suffer as much as you, you seem to assume you know about my lived experience more than I do.

Fair enough, and if you think I suffer as much as you, you seem to assume you know about my lived experience more than I do.

Yeah, tu quoque doesn't undermine the point because it's still primarily affecting black people negatively even if they're "targeting" white people as you allege

I was talking about racist gang members attacking you for being white.

Yeah, isolated incidents that don't appear to take context into account,

Really? So provide context that justifies white people having to enter through the back door.

which was that this was about a protest, it was not racial targeting in any hateful fashion.

If it was not racial targeting, why was only white people forced to enter through the back, and why was only white people forced to leave school?

If white people can't deal with that kind of inconvenience, they're too entitled to even recognize their own status of privilege relative to law enforcement

So you call this an inconvenience? You have lost all credibility when it comes to race issues IMO due to your double standard. If you were fair enough to admit racism is wrong regardless of who it is being directed at, I could respect that; but you can’t even to that! Instead you try to justify racism when it happens to white people by calling it an inconvenience. Shame.

I acknowledged race was an element: you keep assuming I have some short term memory loss and forget what I said, I didn't reduce this to race, you did

I did the exact same thing you did, to make a point

You are being thoroughly dishonest and shifting what I said: 3/5 compromise didn't even acknowledge blacks full, it was dehumanizing and the Emancipation still didn't fix things because of Jim Crow laws, which you agree was bad. What does it take for you to acknowledge that America was built on the backs of exploiting people of color and favoring whites?

Post #464 you said:

Are you being obtuse on purpose? The compromise was between white people who wanted to give black people the right to vote and those who didn’t.

Those were your exact words. The compromise had nothing to do with giving black people (slaves) the right to vote; you were wrong, you just too proud to admit it.

And those gangs are a result of a white privileged culture that treats blacks like an inconvenience and leaves them behind to foment this negative culture that others in this thread have brought up as some stereotype that all black people are somehow responsible for

No, the gangs are a result of no father in the house to give young boys the type of guidance necessary to become a productive young man. This is a cultural problem

Your point? Satire is not the same as racist stereotypes,

Racist satire is!

No they're not, you're selectively viewing stuff you can invoke to say black people are getting special treatment,

I said nothing about special treatment, I said black people are considered the normal in this country. Try addressing what I said and quit making stuff up.

Wow, way to turn me into the bad guy and act like you're somehow superior because you want to act like racial bias in a society isn't a thing and reduce it purely to individuals, which is not only reductionist, but inaccurate given the evidence you apparently don't want to look at because it would change your whole perspective about thinking you and white people are so equal even though society doesn't manifest that remotely to the degree you assert.

You personally not feeling marginalized does not detract from demonstrable evidence you are, or even that many black people are: ignoring the whole by emphasizing the exceptions is more dishonest rhetoric that might work on some, but I'm not taking this bait to guilt me into bending over to this color blind nonsense that acts like American history wasn't rife with racism that has bled into the present in a different manner that has more invisible struggles that you refuse to acknowledge or make them about something else, making race little more than some abstraction which means nothing in real life

Yeah; yeah; more empty claims, nothing to back them up. This is starting to become your M.O.