Why do people blame calvinists ?

[Jesus is YHWH]

He didn't say man is incapable of coming to Jesus. Jesus said, to those He was speaking with that no one could come to Him unless the Father drew them. He wasn't speaking to all mankind. He was speaking to a group of people. How does that effect anyone other than those He was speaking to?

It was the lost who Jesus was talking to which is every persons condition from birth.

 

[Butch5]

Here is what Scripture teaches below. Not my teaching its Scripture.

Mans inability to come to God apart from Him

John 3:19, "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil."

John 3:27, "John answered and said, 'A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven.'"

John 6:44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:65, "And He was saying, ‘For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.’"

John 8:34, "Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."

Rom. 3:10-12, "as it is written, ‘There is none righteous, not even one; 11 There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless. There is none who does good, there is not even one.’"

Rom. 6:20, "For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness."

Rom. 8:7, "because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so."

1 Cor. 2:14, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

Eph. 2:1, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins."

Eph. 2:3, "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."

God must enable man to come to Him. It is the work of God !

John 1:12-13, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

John 6:28-29, "Therefore they said to Him, 'What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?' 29 Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.'"

John 6:44, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:65, "And He was saying, 'For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.'"

Acts 13:48, "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Romans 8:29–30, “For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."

Eph. 1:4, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love."

Eph. 1:5, "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will."

Eph. 1:11, "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."

Phil. 1:29, "For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake."

2 Thess. 2:13, "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."

2 Tim. 1:9, "who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."

2 Tim. 2:24-25, "The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth."

hope this helps !!!

All this shows is that you can proof text. Again, without context it doesn't prove your point. What you're doing is making a claim and then taking single passages apart from their context and claiming they prove your claim. That's not teaching. Teaching is what we see in Romans 3-4 where Paul says that a person is justified by faith, not the Law, and then lays out an argument through the two chapter explaining how what he said is correct. What you've done above is called proof texting and it's the reason you fell for these doctrines to begin with.

But, your whole premise is a moot point anyway because there is no one who hasn't gotten some understanding from God regarding being saved. John tells us,

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
(Jn. 1:6-9 KJV)

John tells us that John the Baptist came to witness to the coming of Christ. That Christ was the light and that through Him all might believe, and that that light, Christ, gives light to everyone coming into the world. In Scripture light is often used as a metaphor for understanding. So, regarding being saved, Christ gives everyone understanding.

Given this information it's clear that in John 6 Jesus isn't saying that no can be saved unless the Father draws him. Again, what is the context? Jesus was gathering disciples to send out into the world to preach the Gospel.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. (Jn. 6:33-45 KJV)

We can see from Jesus' words that what He is referring to has to do with fulfilling prophecy. Jesus said those the Father gives Him shall come to Him. So, verse 37 explains verse 44. No one other than those who the Father gives Christ, those drawn by the Father, can come to Christ. Who are they?

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (Jn. 17:1-12 KJV)

Here we see that Jesus speaks of those who the Father gave Him in the past tense. So clearly, this isn't all of humanity. It was specific men. It was the apostles. Jesus gave the words of the Father to the apostles. These were the ones the Father had that He gave to Christ. However, Jesus went on to say something else.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (Jn. 12:32 KJV)

Here we see that after the cross the drawing would change. Jesus said He would do the drawing and it would be all people. We see that after the cross all authority had been given to Christ, thus He would be doing the drawing.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:1
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
(Matt. 28:18-20 KJV)

This is why context is so important. Taking a belief and then running through the Bible picking verses that "seem" to support it won't lead to a proper understanding of the Scriptures.

 

[Butch5]

It was the lost who Jesus was talking to which is every persons condition from birth.

Interesting since He was speaking to the Jews who are God's people. He was speaking to people who had a covenant with God. You see, this is the problem with the ism's, one begins to mold Scripture to fit them. The best way to learn what the Scriptures teach is to forget everything you've learned and start with a blank slate. Otherwise, you're just reading the Scriptures through colored glasses

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Interesting since He was speaking to the Jews who are God's people. He was speaking to people who had a covenant with God. You see, this is the problem with the ism's, one begins to mold Scripture to fit them. The best way to learn what the Scriptures teach is to forget everything you've learned and start with a blank slate. Otherwise, you're just reading the Scriptures through colored glasses

Are you claiming absolutely no bias when you read the bible ?

 

[Butch5]

Are you claiming absolutely no bias when you read the bible ?

Just what I said. Put aside your beliefs and read the Bible with a clean slate. Let the Bible speak.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Just what I said. Put aside your beliefs and read the Bible with a clean slate. Let the Bible speak.

I do which is why I'm no longer arminian

 

[RickReads]

Can you choose to be without sin?

You appear to be implying that limited choices prevents freewill choices.

 

[Dave L]

You appear to be implying that limited choices prevents freewill choices.

Free will is not free unless unlimited.

 

[RickReads]

Free will is not free unless unlimited.

How could choices become unlimited?

 

[Dave L]

How could choices become unlimited?

Only after the new birth.

 

[RickReads]

Only after the new birth.

Why would new birth make choices unlimited? That doesn`t make sense to me.

No one but God has unlimited choices. If that`s what you consider freewill to be then its not a very useful term.

 

[Butch5]

I do which is why I'm no longer arminian

If you did, you'd know that both ism's are wrong. That you hold one shows you didn't

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

If you did, you'd know that both ism's are wrong. That you hold one shows you didn't

It actually does show that I'm teachable and open minded, any more fallacious arguments you would like to make ?

 

[RickReads]

If you want to define freewill as unlimited choice then you have to be God to have freewill.

If I`m a rat in a maze my choices are limited but I still have choices to make.

When Jesus said no one can come to Him he was revealing it to be a choice that is not possible for anyone. We can`t willfully make a choice that isn`t possible.

We have to have God`s help for salvation to become a possibility. Then we can make a choice.

Freewill yes, unlimited choices no and in fact impossible

 

[RickReads]

It actually does show that I'm teachable and open minded, any more fallacious arguments you would like to make ?

open minded could be considered fallacious I find true open mindedness hard to achieve.

 

[Butch5]

It actually does show that I'm teachable and open minded, any more fallacious arguments you would like to make ?

I didn't say you weren't teachable. But, if you're believing the ism's it shows you haven't set aside all of you preconceptions. Someone who is teachable and open minded can be taught things that are wrong. Likewise they can draw incorrect conclusions.

That there is this constant back and forth between Calvinists and Arminians shows that both sides are wrong. Both sides have passages they think support their beliefs. However, both sides have passages they can't reconcile with their beliefs. So, it winds up being a matter of numbers. Which side can find the most passages that they believe support their side. That's not how to rightly divided the word. You know you're correct when "ALL" of the passages fit with what you believe.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

open minded could be considered fallacious I find true open mindedness hard to achieve.

There are things I'm closed minded on such as the Trinity, Deity of Christ, the gospel, the bodily Resurrection, Ascension and 2nd Coming of Christ, salvation by grace through faith just to name a few. There are essential truths which cannot be denied as a believer IMHO.

 

[RickReads]

I didn't say you weren't teachable. But, if you're believing the ism's it shows you haven't set aside all of you preconceptions. Someone who is teachable and open minded can be taught things that are wrong. Likewise they can draw incorrect conclusions.

That there is this constant back and forth between Calvinists and Arminians shows that both sides are wrong. Both sides have passages they think support their beliefs. However, both sides have passages they can't reconcile with their beliefs. So, it winds up being a matter of numbers. Which side can find the most passages that they believe support their side. That's not how to rightly divided the word. You know you're correct when "ALL" of the passages fit with what you believe.

I agree with you although I think you need to rework your opinion about John 6:44. People can`t make or maintain a choice for Jesus without God`s help.

 

[Butch5]

There are things I'm closed minded on such as the Trinity, Deity of Christ, the gospel, the bodily Resurrection, Ascension and 2nd Coming of Christ, salvation by grace through faith just to name a few. There are essential truths which cannot be denied as a believer IMHO.

You shouldn't be close minded about anything Christian.

 

[RickReads]

There are things I'm closed minded on such as the Trinity, Deity of Christ, the gospel, the bodily Resurrection, Ascension and 2nd Coming of Christ, salvation by grace through faith just to name a few. There are essential truths which cannot be denied as a believer IMHO.

I don`t disagree. I think it`s a mistake to be overly attached to the term trinity tho. That word wasn`t invented until the third century.