Why do people blame calvinists ?

[Dave L]

You are assuming I agreed with your previous remark. There are I think 4 verses in the book of James about the tongue. You can`t just read one of them and assume you have the truth. You have free will choices about your tongue but you don`t want to believe that so you give me your interpretation of one verse instead of putting up all 4.

Can you choose to be without sin?

 

[Butch5]

When James Arminius (Arminianism) believes the same thing with total depravity, free will and predestination ?

Arminius writes,

“THIS is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace.” 7
Jacobus Arminius: Works of James Arminius, Vol. 1 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library


I. We call this decree "Predestination," in Greek, Proorismon from the verb Proorizein which signifies determine, appoint, or decree any thing before you enter on its execution. According to this general notion, predestination, when attributed to God, will be his decree for the governance of all things, to which divines usually give the appellation of PROVIDENCE. (Acts ii. 28; xvii, 26.) It is customary to consider in a less general notion, so far as it has reference to rational creatures who are to be saved or damned, for instance, angels and men. It is taken in a stricter sense about the predestination of men, and then it is usually employed in two ways; for it is sometimes accommodated to both the elect and the reprobate. At other times, it is restricted to the elect alone, and then it has reprobation as its opposite. According to this last signification, in which it is almost constantly used in Scripture, (Rom. viii. 29,) we will treat on predestination.

II. Predestination, therefore, as it regards the thing itself, is the decree of the good pleasure of God in Christ, by which he resolved within himself from all eternity, to justify, adopt and endow with everlasting life, to the praise of his own glorious grace, believers on whom he had decreed to bestow faith. (Ephes. 1; Rom. 9.)

III. The genus of predestination we lay down as a decree which is called in Scripture Proqesiv "the purpose of God," (Rom. ix. 11,) and Boulhn tou qelhmatov Qeou "the counsel of God’s own will." (Ephes. i. 11.) And this decree is not legal, according to what is said, "The man who doeth those things shall live by them;" (Rom. x. 5 but it is evangelical, and this is the language which it holds: "This is the will of God, that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life." (John vi. 40; Rom. x. 9.) This decree, therefore, is peremptory and irrevocable; because the final manifestation of "the whole counsel of God" concerning our salvation, is contained in the gospel. (Acts xx. 27; Heb. i. 2; ii, 2, 3.)

IV. The Cause of this decree is God, "according to the good pleasure" or the benevolent affection "of his own will." (Ephes. i. 5.) And God indeed is the cause, as possessing the right of determining as he wills both about men as his creatures, and especially as sinners, and about his blessings, (Jer. xviii. 6; Matt. xx. 14, 15,) "according to the good pleasure of his own will," by which, being moved with and in himself, he made that decree. This "good pleasure" not only excludes every cause which it could take from man, or which it could be imagined to take from him; but it likewise removes whatever was in or from man, that could justly move God not to make that gracious decree. (Rom. xi. 34, 35.)

V. As the foundation of this decree, we place Jesus Christ, the mediator between God and men, (Ephes. i. 4.) "in whom the Father is well pleased;" (Matt. iii. 17; Luke iii. 22 "in whom God reconciled the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them" and "whom God made to be sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor. v. 19, 21.) Through Him "everlasting righteousness was to be brought in," (Dan. ix. 24,) adoption to be acquired, the spirit of grace and of faith was to be obtained, (Gal. iv. 5, 19, 6,) eternal life procured, (John vi. 51,) and all the plenitude of spiritual blessings prepared, the communication of which must be decreed by predestination. He is also constituted by God the Head of all those persons who will, by divine predestination, accept of the equal enjoyment of these blessings. (Ephes. i. 22; v, 23; Heb. v. 9.)

What's important to understand is that both are wrong. The early church, for the first 400 years taught that man had free will. They didn't teach this idea of original sin, so there was no hinderance to man's ability to choose to serve God.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

What's important to understand is that both are wrong. The early church, for the first 400 years taught that man had free will. They didn't teach this idea of original sin, so there was no hinderance to man's ability to choose to serve God.

How is man free ?

We see below he is only free to sin because he is a slave to sin. Sin owns him like a master.

how can a slave choose not to be a slave ?

are not they imprisoned ?

do they not have a slave owner ?

are they not in chains ?

what is bondage ?

1)man has a heart that is deceitful (Jer. 17:9)
2)man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
3)man loves darkness (John 3:19),
4)man does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
5)man is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
6)man is a sinner (Rom 5:12)
7)man is dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
8)man by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
9)man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
10)man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
11)man is sinful in the womb (Psalm 51:5)
12)man is conceived in sin(Psalm 51:5)
13)man cannot do good(Romans 3:10)
14) man hates God (Rom 8:7)
15)man loves sin (1 John 3:19)


hope this helps !!!

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

What's important to understand is that both are wrong. The early church, for the first 400 years taught that man had free will. They didn't teach this idea of original sin, so there was no hinderance to man's ability to choose to serve God.

The church was wrong then for Jesus teaching says otherwise.

God must first enable a man to come to Him-

John 1:13 says not by human will/choice/decision but by God.

Jesus said you DID NOT choose Me but I CHOSE YOU.

No man can come to Him unless the Spirit draws/enables them. John 6:44

"This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him." John 6:45

hope this helps !!!

 

[Butch5]

How is man free ?

We see below he is only free to sin because he is a slave to sin. Sin owns him like a master.

how can a slave choose not to be a slave ?

are not they imprisoned ?

do they not have a slave owner ?

are they not in chains ?

what is bondage ?

1)man has a heart that is deceitful (Jer. 17:9)
2)man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
3)man loves darkness (John 3:19),
4)man does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
5)man is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
6)man is a sinner (Rom 5:12)
7)man is dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
8)man by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
9)man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
10)man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
11)man is sinful in the womb (Psalm 51:5)
12)man is conceived in sin(Psalm 51:5)
13)man cannot do good(Romans 3:10)
14) man hates God (Rom 8:7)
15)man loves sin (1 John 3:19)


hope this helps !!!

Not sure how this helps. It doesn't change history. As I said, the early church for the first 400 years of history taught that man had free will. That means whatever came later is wrong.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Not sure how this helps. It doesn't change history. As I said, the early church for the first 400 years of history taught that man had free will. That means whatever came later is wrong.

Then history is not on the side of Jesus regarding the topic.

 

[Butch5]

The church was wrong then for Jesus teaching says otherwise.

God must first enable a man to come to Him-

John 1:13 says not by human will/choice/decision but by God.

Jesus said you DID NOT choose Me but I CHOSE YOU.

No man can come to Him unless the Spirit draws/enables them. John 6:44

"This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him." John 6:45

hope this helps !!!

Maybe the Church wasn't wrong and your understanding of the Bible is what is wrong. You've simply grabbed a few passages of Scripture out of context here. What does that prove? Jesus said, you did not choose Me, I chose you, OK. Who did He say it to and what did He choose them for? To just take a sentence out of context and claim it means something proves nothing. That's one of the big reasons that some many don't understand the Bible. It's also the main reason we have Calvinists and Arminians to begin with. As I said, both sides are wrong. They've created doctrines based on misunderstood passages and passages taken out of context.

 

[Butch5]

Then history is not on the side of Jesus regarding the topic.

Yes, it is. Who do you think taught those first Christians? It was Jesus and the apostles. Maybe consider that it's your understanding that is wrong, not theirs. You've got to wade through 2000 years of baggage. They got it straight from the source.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Yes, it is. Who do you think taught those first Christians? It was Jesus and the apostles. Maybe consider that it's your understanding that is wrong, not theirs. You've got to wade through 2000 years of baggage. They got it straight from the source.

I can make my arguments from Scripture which is my Authority, not he church after the Apostles died. I provided Scripture and you did not address any of it but used the fallacy of appealing to authority.

 

[Butch5]

I can make my arguments from Scripture which is my Authority, not he church after the Apostles died. I provided Scripture and you did not address any of it but used the fallacy of appealing to authority.

No, you can't make an argument from Scripture because the Scriptures show man's ability to choose. What you provided were a few passages of Scripture that you took out of context. One can make many claims and pull a passage out of context to make it appear they are correct. If you want to prove that your argument is Scriptural you'll need to show a teaching in the Bible that shows that man has no ability to choose. And, I didn't appeal to authority. I simply presented facts to you. For the first 400 years of Christian history man's free will was taught. That's a fact. It doesn't change. If it's you contention that it's wrong then you need to prove that it's wrong.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

No, you can't make an argument from Scripture because the Scriptures show man's ability to choose. What you provided were a few passages of Scripture that you took out of context. One can make many claims and pull a passage out of context to make it appear they are correct. If you want to prove that your argument is Scriptural you'll need to show a teaching in the Bible that shows that man has no ability to choose. And, I didn't appeal to authority. I simply presented facts to you. For the first 400 years of Christian history man's free will was taught. That's a fact. It doesn't change. If it's you contention that it's wrong then you need to prove that it's wrong.

What part of NO ONE CAN COME are you having trouble understanding ?

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him. John 6:44

"This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him." John 6:45

hope this helps !!!

 

[Butch5]

What part of NO ONE CAN COME are you having trouble understanding ?

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him. John 6:44

"This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him." John 6:45

hope this helps !!!

Who did He say that to? What is the context?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Who did He say that to? What is the context?

1-The Jews
2-Many disciples who stopped following Him as His teachings were to difficult for them
3-And the 12 disciples

any more questions ?

 

[Jesusthekingofking]

Free will makes you the savior.

Believe in Jesus and you'll be saved, so what did the calvinist do before they become a Christian?

 

[Butch5]

1-The Jews
2-Many disciples who stopped following Him as His teachings were to difficult for them
3-And the 12 disciples

any more questions ?

How do His statements fit into that context? You didn't explain that. Which of those passages says man has no free will? Neither passage states that so it's obvious your argument is by way of implication. Since it's by way of implication you need to explain it.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Believe in Jesus and you'll be saved, so what did the calvinist do before they become a Christian?

Jesus taught this below:

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him. John 6:44

"This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him." John 6:45

hope this helps !!!

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

How do His statements fit into that context? You didn't explain that. Which of those passages says man has no free will? Neither passage states that so it's obvious your argument is by way of implication. Since it's by way of implication you need to explain it.

man is incapable of coming to Jesus, deciding to follow Him unless He is drawn by the Father. Jesus words not mine.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Not sure how this helps. It doesn't change history. As I said, the early church for the first 400 years of history taught that man had free will. That means whatever came later is wrong.

Here is what Scripture teaches below. Not my teaching its Scripture.

Mans inability to come to God apart from Him

John 3:19, "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil."

John 3:27, "John answered and said, 'A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven.'"

John 6:44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:65, "And He was saying, ‘For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.’"

John 8:34, "Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."

Rom. 3:10-12, "as it is written, ‘There is none righteous, not even one; 11 There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless. There is none who does good, there is not even one.’"

Rom. 6:20, "For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness."

Rom. 8:7, "because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so."

1 Cor. 2:14, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

Eph. 2:1, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins."

Eph. 2:3, "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."

God must enable man to come to Him. It is the work of God !

John 1:12-13, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

John 6:28-29, "Therefore they said to Him, 'What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?' 29 Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.'"

John 6:44, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:65, "And He was saying, 'For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.'"

Acts 13:48, "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Romans 8:29–30, “For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."

Eph. 1:4, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love."

Eph. 1:5, "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will."

Eph. 1:11, "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."

Phil. 1:29, "For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake."

2 Thess. 2:13, "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."

2 Tim. 1:9, "who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."

2 Tim. 2:24-25, "The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth."

hope this helps !!!

 

[Butch5]

man is incapable of coming to Jesus, deciding to follow Him unless He is drawn by the Father. Jesus words not mine.

He didn't say man is incapable of coming to Jesus. Jesus said, to those He was speaking with that no one could come to Him unless the Father drew them. He wasn't speaking to all mankind. He was speaking to a group of people. How does that effect anyone other than those He was speaking to?

 

[Dave L]

Believe in Jesus and you'll be saved, so what did the calvinist do before they become a Christian?

In my case, I was not interested in God and was not seeking him. But he gave me the Holy Spirit from out of the blue. And that experience made a believer out of me.