Paul Reveals the timing of Revelation 20

[Davy]

We see below that the book is not in chronological order.

Second Comings in Revelation:

Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.

Now you're going off on a tangent and have left the Amill topic.

I never said all the events in Revelation were chronological. That's the pre-trib folks who believe that. Thus you are going back to your false assumption you've been taught to think, that to be Premill automatically means being a pre-tribulationalist-dispensationalist, which I am neither. God's Word teaches a post-tribulational return of Christ to gather His Church and end this present world with God's consuming fire, which thereby will usher all into His 1,000 years Millennial reign with His elect, on earth. This is why Zechariah 14 declares His coming with all His saints, with His feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, which is where the two angels in Acts 1 revealed He will return to at His coming.

He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.

Yes... and that judgment time is NOT the GWT Judgment we can easily know, because Jesus is NOT reigning over the wicked on earth today, and we are told ALL His enemies must first be made His footstool, which will not happen until the day of His return. This is another reason why the 1,000 years will be a literal period of His reign over the wicked and unsaved nations. This is also why Zechariah 14:16-19 tells us those left of the nations that came up against Jerusalem, pointing to the Armageddon event on the final trumpet and vial, will be made to go up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship The King, The LORD of hosts, and keep the feast of tabernacles. And that is no vague OT reference to Christ's Millennial reign after His return. It is very direct and impossible to transverse with men's doctrines.

The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.

Yes, the first five verses are a summary of God's basic plan from Satan's fall to the time of Christ's future reign with the rod of iron. What does that have to do with man's Amill theory?

The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew 13.

Rev.14:1-5 is a future-forward look in time for AFTER Jesus has returned and His elect are reigning with Him upon Mount Zion ("Sion") in the holy land, on earth. That is a direct testimony AGAINST any Amill idea that says Jesus is reigning with His elect today already, from Heaven, like Dr. Storms said, which is a false doctrine not written.

He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and the greatest earthquake in history is found in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial.

Yeah, and the whole earth is going to shake, again as it did once before (Hebrews 12:25-29). You are still off the Amill topic.

He comes on a horse in chapter 19.

Yes, we easily know this too written in Rev.19. Still off topic.

He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)

The Rev.11:18 events are a compressed summary. Per John 5:28-29, on the day of Jesus' return, He will separate the dead and those who did good will go to the "resurrection of life" but those who did evil will go to the "resurrection of damnation". It didn't say anything about those damned going into the "lake of fire" just yet. You are wanting to jump... to the GWT Judgment event that will happen only after... Jesus has reigned over those for 1,000 years with His elect. Those of the "resurrection of damnation" are included in those of His enemies that must be made His footstool...

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV

That will happen only after... Christ's return. Those wicked of the synagogue of Satan are there after Christ's return, bowing the knee to Him in front of His elect's feet! That has never happened in this present world, and it won't. The unbelieving false Jew will continue to persecute Christ's Church all the way up to the time of Christ's future return. Yet there they will be, after Christ's return, bowing in worship, and NOT destroyed yet like your false Amill doctrine tries to add.

 

[BABerean2]

1. To be fair to Dr. Storms I can only comment on what he said and his basic premise of what he said because he couldn’t reveal his whole thinking in an hour and every scripture.

2. I have an older book of people who left Dallas Theological years ago and so I have heard these arguments in some form before.

3. This is a hermeneutical battle. Both side whether literal or allegorical are misunderstood.
Literal believe in allegory’s and symbolism that represent literal truth and the allegorical believe in literal things and symbols that represent literal truth. Some things we agree such as the Lord is my Shepherd doesn’t mean a shepherd of as in animals but the shepherd of our souls.
He believes the temple is the church in Revelation 11. I don’t know his full thought but there is a difference between the temple measured so people could worship in it.


4. He believes the 1000 years is symbolic and I don’t.
If it is merely just about the scriptures on the 1000 years not allowing for I would agree. I understand Thales of first mention.
But the subject matter of context makes the difference which is on earth where there is time now and then in that time that is future.
God is not bound by time at any time.
The beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire 1000 years before Satan. It is literal according to my hermeneutics but not his.

5. His basis for the Revelation pertains to the church and not Israel. He didn’t elaborate.
Historically, he believes everything is pretty much done except the New Heaven and the New Earth. I disagree.

6. The first resurrection in Revelation 20 he believes are the martyrs of the church age going into the intermediate state such as in Revelation 6:9-11.
These dead people beheaded from the beast system for their faith are in the last half of Jacob’s trouble from Revelation 13-14:13 Blessed dead and 15:1-3 who sing the song of Moses and the Lamb and die and go to Heaven before the vials on the beast kingdom worshippers and the battle of Armageddon.
He believes the Second resurrection is physical which it is for the sinners and is called the 2nd death. Sinners are resurrected to be in the GWTJ and cast into the Lake of Fire.

7. He uses reasonings like escapism from the pre-mil is wrong because it negates the suffering and martyrdom from other Christians countries.
In some respects this is true depending on your motive.
However, the Bible says to occupy till he comes. But that doesn’t mean we have to yearn for martyrdom and some Christians do in America and we may yet.
That still is no proof we have to go through Jacob’s trouble which is a specific tribulation Revelation 12:1-2.

8. Two more things; one is the Olivet discourse in Matthew 24.
The temple coming down was in 70 A.D. and I have always said that.
The sign of his coming and the end of the world (age) he puts from 33 A.D. to 70 A. D.
Yet he believes John wrote the Revelation in the early 90’s.
Does he assume John is reiterating history across the board and for what?
I understand that Jesus is talking to his disciples in the first person and they were delivered up, afflicted and killed save John who was not martyred though they tried.
But, because he cannot substantiate the whole chapter which goes together as one context I don’t agree
Jesus spoke to the disciples more in representing the future Jews which has not happened yet.
The son of man never came back on clouds of glory in 70 A. D.

9. One more thing is his non understanding of the man of lawlessness and the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2.
In verse 3 the term is man of sin and sin of perdition.
V4 he is the one who will desecrate the temple. How could this be if he believes the church is the temple? He could desecrate Christians if he tempted them and they fell for it but to dwell in them then they wouldn’t be believers. This makes no sense. I’m sure there is more because of his belief of 70A.D. in the destruction of Jerusalem because there was a temple.
Anyway, his reasoning seemed to be that the restrainer was the man of lawlessness or the son of perdition or a singular person.
He was baffled really what it meant though he knows Paul told them who it was beforehand.
There are 3-4 choices and it is not the man of sin.
a) governments
b) Holy Spirit
c) church
d) Michael the Archangel

It is not governments for the Antichrist will rule over them and Christ will not take them over until Armageddon.

It is not the Holy Spirit for he will still be operating in the end time revivals and no man can be saved except the Spirit draw him.

The church was restraining the man of sin then and still now. The church is called a man and the body of Christ.

Michael the archangel is said to be a restrainer because he stands up for Israel Daniel 12:1 and steps aside in the middle of the tribulation after the war in Heaven where Satan is kicked out of Heaven with his Armies Revelation 12:1. He is the special prince for Israel Daniel 12:1; 10:21; 12:7-12.

Dr. Storms didn’t even try to give an answer to the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians.

10. I forgot one thing he mentioned and that was the millennial kingdom is now and will be restored to the New Heaven and the New Earth next after Armageddon and the church age.
This is why he believes that there can be no death, no sinners etc. in our millennial kingdom or when Christ comes back. I would agree with him if that is what the scripture said but it doesn’t.
Also he believes it is an oxymoron to have death in a Kingdom of Peace and rule with a rod of iron.
However, 1 Corinthians 15:25; For he must reign till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
This is not a spiritual reign from Heaven, it is physical on earth after Armageddon and during the 1000 years and will culminate in Victory and death being thrown into the lake of fire.
We are being trained right now to rule and reign 2 Timothy 2:12.
Revelation 2:26; the over comers will have power over the nations. and Christ will rule with a rod of iron.
He believes this already happened? No, it didn’t happen back then and is not happening now.
1 Corinthians 15:24 and 28 the son has to subdue everything before he gives the kingdom back to the Father so he can be all in all.
I must stop here, but I do not agree with his historical basis completely and some of his reasonings which show light on what some dispensational views that may be true in some circles but doesn’t agree with context to actually prove the point scripturally.
He’s not as allegorical maybe as a pure amil, probably because of his former dispensational background.
I thought some of his reasonings were good but I heard nothing that would persuade me to switch. Jerry kelso

Jerry,

I appreciate you taking the time to listen, even if we disagree.

.

 

[Davy]

Justin Martyr said otherwise. He was a Premillennialist, who said there were those of other opinions during his time.

You mean the guy who compared Christianity with ancient Greek Platonism?

You claim Recapitulation in the Book of Revelation is "off topic", apparently without understanding how it effects the judgement of the dead in Revelation 11:18, and the judgment of the dead in Revelation 20.

Rather stick to God's written Word, not men's multitude of seminary doctrines on Pauline theology. And you were off the topic of Amill. FYI, I never claimed anything about Recapitulation in my previous post, so you are guilty of bearing false witness with that false accusation above.

If you use Revelation chapter 20 to re-define the rest of scripture you are arguing in a circle. It is circular logic. This is the most common method used to make the Premill doctrine work.

Anyone reading my previous post can easily tell I didn't rely just only on Rev.20. Once again, you bear FALSE WITNESS. It even shows you really didn't even read what I posted.

The Premill doctrine ignores, or redefines Matthew 25:31-46, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1, and Revelation 11:15-18.

This makes it a doctrine of ignorance.

Actually, it's the Amill doctrine of man you're on that tries to redefine those Scriptures to fit its pet theories. What I showed from Scripture is perfectly in alignment with each other. You have to use un-Biblical ideas not written in Scripture to try and explain those Scriptures in an Amill setting.

Thus the "doctrine of ignorance" is really upon those believing the Amill position, because it means leaving the written Word of God with adding foreign ideas into the Scripture instead. Since when does the word 'millennium' not... mean a literal 1,000 year period? Yet that is exactly what Dr. Storms declared, that it does not really mean that. What fool would take him seriously on that? Obviously, titles on the end of names don't impress me that much.

You say there are mortals left alive on the earth for 1,000 years after Christ's Second Coming, even though He says otherwise in Matthew 25:31-46.
I will go with what Jesus said.
.

Why do you do what you wrongly accuse me of? You continuously pivot around that Matthew 25:31-46 Scripture as if the Rev.20 and Zech.14 Scripture doesn't even exist.

What about the Revelation 3:9 Scripture that shows those of the synagogue of Satan bowing the knee in worship at the feet of Christ's elect? How does that relate to that Matthew 25:31-41 Scripture? It kind of shows you're missing some info, doesn't it. Yes, it does, because Jesus gave His faithful more details of the separation of His sheep from the goats in other New Testament Scriptures.

 

[BABerean2]

You continuously pivot around that Matthew 25:31-46 Scripture as if the Rev.20 and Zech.14 Scripture doesn't even exist.

If your interpretation of Revelation 20, and Zechariah 14, do not agree with the clear words of Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46, you have just identified the problem.

You also have to ignore the flaming fire in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and the timing of the judgments in 2 Timothy 4:1, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18, or you have to redefine them.

If you think none of the Book of Revelation is to be taken symbolically, why did Jesus explain the meaning of the stars and candlesticks in Revelation 1:20?

Do you think the witnesses in Revelation 11:4 are men made of wood and metal?

Do you believe there will be a future time when animals will be sacrificed in an earthly temple, after the Second Coming of Christ, with both mortals and immortals being present?

Do you believe Jesus will be conducting funeral services for 1,000 years after His Second Coming?

.

 

[nolidad]

Hello Nolidad.

Thanks for your informed reply.

You stated your method of interpretation was not allegory or symbolic. Yet a literal interpretation would read, 'the last hour' in 1 John 2:18, as exactly as it is written, that is just one literal hour.

Now I am not sure how you interpret the scripture?

I am a dispensationalist, who believes in the literal, historical, grammatical method of understanding the Scripture IOW a literalist.

With that said, it is known that some words in greek have more than one similar meaning in English and the context must determine which of the definitions come to bear!

Yes most translations write it as "the last hour", but being hyper-literal, that means that it all ends in under 60 minutes! We know from history and the fact we are here that hour is not the meaning meant here.

Why God inspired John to use "hora" instead of "chronos" I don't know. But I just look at teh word, see it varied meanings as I listed and then by process of elimination see what is left.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

I appreciate you taking the time to listen, even if we disagree.

.

baberean2,

1. You’re welcome.

2. There are Drs. for each position and all of them can’t be right.

3. You can disagree and that is fine but exegesis of scripture is to study proper context the best you can and it is beneficial to understand other positions in order to debate and rebut not because you can recite what a Dr. says in my opinion.
If I was to debate him I would have to rely on what I understood of his hermeneutics because I already know what mine are. Food for thought. Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

[STAFF EDITED]

Since you are not a pretribber, I would assume you believe Christ gathers believers living on the earth at His Second Coming found in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4, and 5.

Can you tell us where your mortals come from?
Who are those not worthy of getting a new body at His Second Coming, but not wicked enough to be destroyed?


.

 

[BABerean2]

I am a dispensationalist, who believes in the literal, historical, grammatical method of understanding the Scripture IOW a literalist.

You follow the above strategy until you find the scriptures which kill your Two Peoples of God doctrine. Then you ignore those scriptures to make your doctrine work.

You then talk about "Replacement Theology", while you replace the one seed with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


The New Covenant: Bob George

.

 

[jerry kelso]

You follow the above strategy until you find the scriptures which kill your Two Peoples of God doctrine. Then you ignore those scriptures to make your doctrine work.

You then talk about "Replacement Theology", while you replace the one seed with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


The New Covenant: Bob George

.

baberean2,

1. Let me ask you a few questions.
What is your definition of two peoples doctrine?

2. What is your definition of replacement theology?

3. What is your definition of and opinion of or perception of Dispensational theology?

4. Why do you think the pre- trib rapture is so evil?
Jerrykelso

 

[Timtofly]

Like all man-made doctrines, those promoting the Premill doctrine often quote certain passage of scripture, but ignore the passages which kill their doctrine. They often appeal to less clear Old Testament passages, while ignoring the other passages.
Please consider the following passages which kill the Premill doctrine.

How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of the judgment of the living in Matthew 25:31-46?

When does the fire come in Revelation 20?
Paul said Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
This agrees with Peter in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

When is the judgment of the dead in Revelation 20?
Paul said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1.
This agrees with "the time of the judgement of the dead", with reward for some, and destruction for others in Revelation 11:15-18.
Most ignore this passage, because it proves the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order. Instead it is a series of overlapping visions given to John on the Island of Patmos.
The Premill doctrine falls apart if the book is not in chronological order.

Revelation is in chronological order. To accept amil is what takes it out of chronological order. Amil is the false theology that is the culprit why Revelation cannot be in chronological order.

The whole jugment and harvest by fire is the Seals, trumpets, and thunders. Why do people leave out the thunders??? After Armageddon no descendant of Adam is alive in fallen sinful nature flesh and blood. It is the end of sin, and death by sin. The millennium is the direct rule of law and willful disobedience. It is not because of a sin nature. It is directly disobeying the law of the one doing the ruling with an iron rod.

Revelation is not really an up and down elevator event. The Lamb comes in the 6th seal. Stays until the end of the Second Coming week. Week is over, all killed with the two sickles of Revelation 14, End of Adam's 6000 years of punishment. New Millennium starts, there is a perfect reign of Christ, and Satan destroyed at the end. GWT and then New Jerusalem in a new Heavens and Earth reality. End of plan A.

Plan B is just the same, except for one tiny incident with Satan in the middle of the Celebration Week. On Wednesday morning Satan demands God that the church failed God, and that he should be given the chance to prove himself with those souls still on earth about to be destroyed with the 2 Sickles. Surely Satan can out perform the church, or that is what he is thinking. God then gives Satan 3.5 years. This is why the Lamb and the 144K leave earth after the Second Coming. The rest of the week is postponed for 3.5 years. Only 2 literal humans sent by God reminding all other humans to still reject Satan and get their heads chopped off to save themselves from God’s wrath to come. Then the last 3.5 days when the 2 witnesses lay in Jerusalem, God pours out the 7 vials on Satan's followers, and any one else. After the two witnesses get up and go back to heaven, for one hour, all the nations assemble together at Armageddon. God literally, kindly transports all humanity to this one last blast of Satan's determination. All flesh is then killed, no one escapes. The next day, the Resurrection of those killed during the harvest of the Lamb come to life in incorruptible bodies. The sheep, wheat, and those beheaded who did not get the mark.

Why people think the millennium is for the church or OT saints miss the whole reason for OT prophecies. It is also the confusion between the spiritual covenant and the physical covenant. No one today or even the last 500 years can be experts on who ends up where or when. Not even the NT is direct and specific. Matthew being the only one who hints at a bodily resurrection of OT believers at the Cross. Paul states sheol was emptied, and death is being present with the Lord. Then says the dead will rise the second time?

Death in the tribulation is not being present with Christ, because Christ is on earth, and we are not told He goes around with dead souls in ghost bodies walk around as the harvest is being carried out. Nor will the church in glorified body, living lights, said to be walking around. Revelation 5:10 seems to be like a Roman stadium of "thrones" set up in heaven over the earth where the church will watch life being played out on earth below. The same thrones that amil deny are literal in Revelation 20. I guess having amphitheater seating for 6+ years is too "sadistic" for some minds when it comes to God's view of sin. God has been watching for 6000 years. Is God sadistic?

 

[BABerean2]

Revelation is in chronological order.

You saying it does not make it so.



Second Comings in Revelation:

Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.


He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.


The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.


The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.


He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and the greatest earthquake in history is found in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial.


He comes on a horse in chapter 19.


He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)


The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

.

 

[jerry kelso]

baberean2,

1. Let me ask you a few questions.
What is your definition of two peoples doctrine?

2. What is your definition of replacement theology?

3. What is your definition of and opinion of or perception of Dispensational theology?

4. Why do you think the pre- trib rapture is so evil?
Jerrykelso

baberean2,
Are you going to answer my questions? If not, why? Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

2. What is your definition of replacement theology?

Replacing the one people of God, with two peoples of God in John 10:16.

Replacing the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

Replacing the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, with the word "then", which is an adverb of timing, in Romans 11:26. I have heard Dispensational preachers do this on television. It is a corruption of God's Word.

Replacing the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

Replacing the Gospel based only on Grace, with one based on race.

Replacing the land promise found in Hebrews 11:15-16, with one on this sin-cursed earth.

The worst of all is the claim God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary. It is replacing the fulfillment of the New Covenant found in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24, with a fulfillment during a future time.

.

 

[Timtofly]

He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.
The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.
The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.
He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and the greatest earthquake in history is found in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial.
He comes on a horse in chapter 19.
He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20

From the 6th seal on Christ is on earth, even during the Millennium. The only reason why Jesus Christ leaves is because there is an interruption. Revelation 13 is the interruption. If Revelation 13 happened then Revelation 14 will not. If Revelation 14 happened, then Revelation 15, 16, and 19 cannot. Revelation 17 and 18 happen either way.

The Trumpets and Thunders happen while the Lamb is finishing The last 3 or so years that were cut off of His first ministry. The time when both God and Son come back to take away the vineyard from the wicked stewards who had previously killed the Son. This is the time of the physical harvest Jesus prophecied and promised He would personally oversee.

There is no coming and going back and forth. It is the end, and it will be over sooner than later. If the church in America thinks a democratic win will happen this fall, and are afraid. They should be more worried about Satan getting a win for 3.5 years instead. Politics, theology, even eschatology are about over, and really should not matter to the church either way. The church should be ready at any moment for Christ to come, as always.

 

[jerry kelso]

Replacing the one people of God, with two peoples of God in John 10:16.

Replacing the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

Replacing the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, with the word "then", which is an adverb of timing, in Romans 11:26. I have heard Dispensational preachers do this on television. It is a corruption of God's Word.

Replacing the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

Replacing the Gospel based only on Grace, with one based on race.

Replacing the land promise found in Hebrews 11:15-16, with one on this sin-cursed earth.

The worst of all is the claim God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary. It is replacing the fulfillment of the New Covenant found in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24, with a fulfillment during a future time.

.

baberean2,

Thank you.

1. John 10:16; Some say this is Israel and Judah who were both backslidden and Jesus only preached to the Jewish nation the KoH message.
On the other hand the other sheep would be reasonable to say the gentiles to make up the church which would make this a prophecy.
Either way it doesn’t matter for what makes us one is the cross which deals with the spiritual aspect and has nothing to do with the land and Israel’s calling and ruling from Israel Isaiah 2:2-4 with Christ Zechariah 14:9 and David Ezekiel 37:20.
We all will have different positions of rulership in the kingdom but that doesn’t mean that we are not one fold or that we don’t have one shepherd.

2. Romans 9:8; Paul is talking about his kinsmen in the flesh for they were given the covenants and the law and the service of God and the promises and pertaining to their adoption and they brought forth the Messiah and he came for a specific mission but they rejected him and the KoH message.
However, some of them had accepted Christ not because they were merely Abraham’s physical seed. This was even true in the Old Testament if they lived and died in sin Ezekiel 18.
Through Isaac seed the physical aspect being a Jew and the spiritual aspect for Jew and eventually gentiles who would become the church. It would not come through the bond woman and her son Galatians 4:29:31, who was Hagar and
Ishmael.
This doesn’t affect the earthly calling of physical Israel Romans 11:29.
Gentiles are not destined to be physical Jews. Real physical Jews have to be a spiritual Jew Romans 2:17-29.

3. Romans 11:26
You can say it’s of manner but it doesn’t matter. Why? Because the time factor is the next phrase; There shall come out of Sion (Heavenly) the Deliverer and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. This is at Armageddon Zechariah 14.
It is not a corruption of God’s word.
You could brush upon your hermeneutics and not jump the gun.

4. Galatians 3:16 is about Christ the one seed which he is the New Covenant.
Israel as a nation will receive the New Covenant in that day Hebrews 8:7-13.

5. Eternal life is based on grace not race Romans 4:1-6.
Both Israel the physical nation and the the church age saints will be under the New Covenant.
This still has nothing to do with separate callings and rulership position for all saints will have different callings and positions.

6. Hebrews 11:15-16; there is nothing about replacing the Land promised to the nation of Israel in the KoH on earth. Abraham is in Heaven now and will come back to earth with Christ and be in the KoH reign Matthew 8:11.

7. Israel rejected Christ KoH and KoG offer Matthew 23:37-37.
Jesus said their house would be desolate which happened in 70 A. D. Spiritually they are still desolate as a nation and backslidden. Verse 39 Jesus said, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that comets in the name of the Lord which will not be till the second advent. This shows they did not receive the New Covenant as in Jeremiah 31:31-36 and Hebrews 8:7-13.

8. It is a false claim that it replace the fulfillment of the New Covenant because everyone knows the New Covenant was ratified at Calvary in his blood Matthew 26:28.
Hebrews 10:16-18; the law is not written on their hearts and minds for they are still backslidden as a nation.
Hebrews 12:24-28; this is spoken to the Jews in the church age and has nothing to do with the KoH reign in the future that pertains to physical Israel’s callings and rulership positions and it doesn’t deserve away with the NC which was ratified at Calvary and it doesn’t mean we are not one fold with one shepherd or any such ridiculousness.
So all your accusations are baseless and is putting words into our mouths. Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

4. Galatians 3:16 is about Christ the one seed which he is the New Covenant.
Israel as a nation will receive the New Covenant in that day Hebrews 8:7-13.

All man-made doctrines are revealed by the scripture its proponents must ignore to make it work.

In the passage below Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel", when about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ. This agrees with the "remnant" in Romans 9:27. A "remnant" cannot be a whole nation.


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


You are also ignoring the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6, which proves the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 to now be in effect.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Your attempts to separate Gentile believers from Jewish believers fall apart in Paul's warnings against genealogies found below.

1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.


Paul had to correct Peter for treating Gentile believers differently than Jewish believers, and some of us are making the same mistake today. Modern Dispensational Theology is built upon this error.

.

 

[nolidad]

You follow the above strategy until you find the scriptures which kill your Two Peoples of God doctrine. Then you ignore those scriptures to make your doctrine work.

You then talk about "Replacement Theology", while you replace the one seed with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


The New Covenant: Bob George

.

Still waiting for you to answer the following:

. Seeing as you declare the 1,000 years in revelation is the nearly 2000 year church age:

1. What does 3 1/2 days mean for the two witnesses,
2. did they really die and resurrect?
3. what are the plagues they have hurt mankind with (as these are in the church age)
4. How long is the 42 months on the vision about the outer court!
5. Who was the beast and false prophet, when did he institute the mark, and what was it?

Glad to answer any other queries of yours as soon as you answer these.

 

[jerry kelso]

All man-made doctrines are revealed by the scripture its proponents must ignore to make it work.

In the passage below Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel", when about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ. This agrees with the "remnant" in Romans 9:27. A "remnant" cannot be a whole nation.


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


You are also ignoring the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6, which proves the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 to now be in effect.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Your attempts to separate Gentile believers from Jewish believers fall apart in Paul's warnings against genealogies found below.

1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.


Paul had to correct Peter for treating Gentile believers differently than Jewish believers, and some of us are making the same mistake today. Modern Dispensational Theology is built upon this error.

.

1. I don’t ignore your scriptures but I do tell you the proper context behind it.
You did ignore the biblical context of the very scriptures I gave of your own scriptures. Now you have decided to go to another set of scriptures.

2. I am not ignoring the word now because the New Covenant was given at Calvary.
Yes, the early church is as mostly Israel and yes Peter addressed them and they received the Holy Ghost and spread the gospel etc.
The problem is that the church age is a separate age than the kingdom age.
Now you don’t like to hear that but it is true.
It doesn’t mean the New Covenant is over with.
It does mean that everything will shift towards Israel coming back to God to fulfill their covenant calling and gifts
Romans 11:25-29.
Their gifts and callings under the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants are eternal when they repent 1 Chronicles 28:1-7 and 2 Samuel 7:13-16.

3. Colossians 2:16-17; respect to Holy days and sabbath days are s shadow of things to come. They will be a reality in the kingdom age.
This doesn’t mean that we will go back to the old Covenant.

4. You are trying to constantly say or insinuate that we are dismissing or dissing the New Covenant.
You also cannot fathom how there can be anything from the Mosaics law into the New Covenant era that you think has to stay in the Mosaic law ea.
You can’t understand why you could be so wrong because you think you are so right.

5. One more thing.
You talk about Peter addressing the whole house of Israel. Not all of them got saved and the whole nation eventually was lost in 70 A.D.
In Jesus ministry not all Jews were saved and they didn’t receive the kingdom then either and they crucified him.
Both cases were the nation’s backslidden condition and rejection.
Neither one affected the existence of the old or new covenant.
Once again you are making false claims about the word of God. Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

The problem is that the church age is a separate age than the kingdom age.
Now you don’t like to hear that but it is true.

Since the New Covenant is "everlasting" in the verse below, you cannot be correct.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,


.

 

[BABerean2]

1. What does 3 1/2 days mean for the two witnesses,
2. did they really die and resurrect?
3. what are the plagues they have hurt mankind with (as these are in the church age)
4. How long is the 42 months on the vision about the outer court!
5. Who was the beast and false prophet, when did he institute the mark, and what was it?

Glad to answer any other queries of yours as soon as you answer these.

1. Based on Revelation 11:4, and Romans 11:24, and Revelation 1:20, the two witnesses are a symbol of the New Covenant Church.
Steven would be in that group.
Therefore the time period could also be symbolic. I am not sure?

2. Yes. Stephen really died, as did all of the Apostles and thousands of our Brothers and Sisters up to this time. They will be bodily resurrected from the dead at the future Second Coming of Christ.

3.
Jer 5:13 And the prophets shall become wind, and the word is not in them: thus shall it be done unto them.
Jer 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

4. Once again, I am not sure if the time period is symbolic?


5. I cannot tell you the name of the beast or the false prophet? Can you tell us who they are?
The mark will be the symbol of something, or someone, that opposes Christ.

.