Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

[nolidad]

I'm well aware of the importance of translation, etc.
I'm just saying that a spiritual understanding is more important. There are a lot of big name ministers with an excellent education, who don't have a clue.

Well I wonder what you mean by spiritual understanding. If by that you mean a covenantal allegorical hermeneutic, I would strongly disagree.

 

[nolidad]

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

How can someone be destroyed and yet saved by fire, unless being destroyed does not mean what you think it means.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

How is it that Sodom is suffering the vengeance of eternal fire, but then is returned to it's former estate?

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

Wow, this verse seems to be saying the complete opposite of what you are asserting. It's actually the righteous who will dwell in the fire, not sinners. I didn't see any mention of serial killers residing in the fire, there.

You misunderstand the Corinthian passage completely. Pauls judgment seat is called the bema- and all who stand before the bema are qualified (saved) and their works are tried either to be rewarded or not!

The lost stand before the judgment seat of God which is "thronos" to be sentenced.

And you mis equate Gods dealing with sodom, Samaria and Jerusalem in the Ezekiwl passage. God was not saying that the people who were in sodom will return to their city and wicked ways and God will say it is okay by Him.

 

[Jipsah]

And because we are clearly the most humble and righteous! First in the Kingdom.

Listen mate, I'm a LOT humbler than you are, and probably righteouser as well!

 

[Kaon]

Untold billions of human beings have lived and died without hearing the gospel of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. What has become of them? Is there no hope? For more than six thousand years generations of men, like the grass, have appeared and in a few fleeting years withered and vanished. Whence came those countless billions of human beings, and where do they go? This is the problem which has preoccupied the world's thought since the dawn of history. This is the question about which philosophers have theorized and theologians have dogmatized. Unquestionably the problem of the eternal destiny of mankind is the question of questions! It concerns every individual and touches everything of enduring interest. Life is a vapor that appears for a while and vanishes away. But there is a beyond! What is that beyond to be?

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

This isn't real life - it is a facsimile. That is why entities work so hard to get us to want to stay down here - so that we learn to love hell. Vessels that must consume nutrients, undergo cleaning and engage in physical activity to prevent physical breakdown aren't living - they are already dead, being maintained to improve shelf life.

Man is already doomed, but Someone showed us a way out of hell.

 

[nolidad]

Thanks for that post.

You are welcome! I have a Perfect Teacher!

 

[Saint Steven]

Some of the passages where AION is found will give us added information concerning it. In Eph. 2:7 we find, "in the ages (aions) to come." In Col. 1:26 we find, "the mystery which has been hid from ages (aions)." In Eph. 2:2 we find "you walked, according to the course (aion) of this world." In Heb. 1:2 we find, "by whom also He made the worlds (aions)." In Heb. 11:3 we find, "the worlds (aions) were formed by the Word of God." In about fifteen instances, such as Mat. 12:32, 1 Cor. 1:20, etc., we find it rendered "this world (aion)." Twice we find "this present world (aion)." In Gal. 1:4 we find, "deliver us from this present evil world (aion)." In Eph. 6:12 we find, "the rulers of the darkness of this world (aion)." In 11 Cor. 4:4 we find, "the god of this world (aion)." In I Cor. 2:6 we find, "the wisdom of this world (aion)." In Lk. 16:8 we find, "the children of this world (aion)." In Mk. 4:19 we find, "the cares of this world (aion)." How much more understandable it would be if the translators had used the word age instead of world!

In Mk. 10:30 we find that there is not only this present aion, which is evil, but also "the world (aion) to come." In Lk. 20:35 we find, "but they that shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (aion), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage." In Heb. 6:5 we find, "and have tasted the powers of the world (aion) to come." And in Lk. 1:70, Jn. 9:32, etc., we find that the aion had a beginning: "since the world (aion) began."

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[nolidad]

The Lamb of God loses nothing.

He is the One with "un" before the word limited.

The apostle John declares the Lamb takes away the sin of the world, not some of the world, the whole ungodly world.

His at-one-ment encompasses the radical all of pas.

"He is the at-one-ment for our sins"

AND

"not our sins ONLY"

BUT

"the sins of the whole world."

You are 100% correct! But in order to receive that removal of sin, one must trust in Christ before they die! Other wise they suffer aionios punishment while the righteous enjoy aionios life.

Once again, maybe this time it will sink in: If aionios life is life without end, then aionios punishment is punishment without end.

If aionios punishment is for a limited time then aionios life is for a limited time! You are not Marie Antoinette. YOu cannot have your cake and eat it too!

 

[nolidad]

Which is to say that for most of the people who have ever lived our Lord's sacrifice accomplished precisely nothing. This is the "Poor God..." doctrine: "Poor God, He did so want to save everyone, but He just couldn't.". I find it apalling.

You can find it anything you wish, but that is His Word!

Jesus said this:

Matthew 7:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

We cannot mix human reasoning with Gods Word- it corrupts both terribly! WE need to form our opinions based on the Words God inspired and not what we think or feel or reason out.

Proverbs 3:5-6 [Full Chapter]
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

 

[FineLinen]

Other wise they suffer aionios punishment while the righteous enjoy aionios life.

No such animal in Abba's Barnyard!

Aionios kolasis is NOT aidios kolasis.

Furthermore: there is no time contraints on the love & mercy of the God of Glory. ZERO!

Greetings again Dr. Barclay.

“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”

 

[FineLinen]

Yes I agree you should hang your head in shame.

I hang my head in shame for the wonderful things I believe.

I Believe

I believe in "the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouths of the prophets since the world began." -Acts 3:21-

I believe that the "good tidings of great joy will be to all people." -Luke 2:10

I believe that believers in Christ Jesus are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God." -John 1:13-

I believe

I believe that God appointed Jesus Christ "heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe." -Hebr. 1:2-

I believe that "no man can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him." -John 6:44

I believe "God gave Jesus authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as God gave him." -John 17:2-

I believe

I believe the Father "has given all things into Jesus' hands." -John 13:3-

I believe that Jesus Christ "was the true light which gives light to every man who come into the world." -John 1:9

I believe that "just as the result of one trespass was condemnation to all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification for all men." -Romans 5:18

I believe one mans sin "brought condemnation for all mankind." -Romans 5: 19-

I believe one mans righteousness brings "right relationship with God, and new life for everyone." -Romans 5:19-

I believe one mans sin made the whole of mankind sinners. I also believe the righteousness of one Man makes the whole of mankind righteous.

 

[FineLinen]

I hang my head in shame for the wonderful things I believe.

I Believe

I believe in "the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouths of the prophets since the world began." -Acts 3:21-

I believe that the "good tidings of great joy will be to all people." -Luke 2:10

I believe that believers in Christ Jesus are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God." -John 1:13-

I believe

I believe that God appointed Jesus Christ "heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe." -Hebr. 1:2-

I believe that "no man can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him." -John 6:44

I believe "God gave Jesus authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as God gave him." -John 17:2-

I believe

I believe the Father "has given all things into Jesus' hands." -John 13:3-

I believe that Jesus Christ "was the true light which gives light to every man who come into the world." -John 1:9

I believe that "just as the result of one trespass was condemnation to all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification for all men." -Romans 5:18

I believe one mans sin "brought condemnation for all mankind." -Romans 5: 19-

I believe one mans righteousness brings "right relationship with God, and new life for everyone." -Romans 5:19-

I believe one mans sin made the whole of mankind sinners. I also believe the righteousness of one Man makes the whole of mankind righteous.

I hang my head in shame for the wonderful things I believe!

I Believe

I believe that Jesus is “able to subdue all things to himself.” -Phil. 3:21-

I believe that Jesus came “that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in earth in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will.” -Eph. 1:10,11-

I believe “the Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” -2 Peter 3:9-

I Believe

I believe “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors as though God was making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: be reconciled to God.” -2 Cor. 5:19, 20-

I believe that “all nations shall be blessed.” -Gal. 3:8-

I believe that “the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” -John 6:33-

I believe that Jesus commanded us to be like himself: “Love your enemies, bless those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.” -Matt. 5:44,45

I believe Jesus when he said: “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw [Greek=draw, drag, impel] all mankind unto myself.”

I believe that “creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but by reason of Him who subjected it in hope, because creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” -Romans 8:20,21-

 

[Saint Steven]

My life is no better than my unbelieving neighbor... I get no "perks" because I'm a Christian... I am not immune to disease, car accidents, deaths in the family, heart ache, job loss, and other disappointments of this life... I am in this world.. but not of this world... .. I just have knowledge of eternal paradise.

Honestly, if it doesn't work now, why do you think it will work later?

The Christ of Damnationism is a temporal AND eternal failure.

John 10:10
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

 

[Saint Steven]

And now in reviewing the Scriptures we have just quoted we note that this aion is something which has a king; it has princes; it is in darkness; it had a beginning; it has an ending; it is evil; it has wisdom; it has children who marry; it has cares. The aions we find were made by Christ, simply through His spoken Word, and we also find in Col. 1:26 that the mystery of Christ in us, the hope of glory, has been hidden from these aions.

Now, if AION means ETERNAL, consider how ridiculous the Word of God would be! The Holy Spirit would be found saying, "the mystery which has been hid from eternities;" "the mystery of Christ which in other eternities was not made known;" "in the eternities to come;" "You walked according to the eternity of this world;" "by whom also He made the eternities;" "the rulers of the darkness of this eternity;" "now once in the end of the eternities has He appeared;" "the harvest is the end of the eternity;" "since eternity began;" "in the eternities to come," etc. etc. Let the scholars whose business it is delve into the many intricacies of expression, and worry over the many grammatical combinations. Suffice it to say here that there have been "aions" in the past, there is this present "aion," and there are "aions" to come. And these all combined make up TIME, encompassing the whole of the progressive plan and program of God for the development of His creation.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[FineLinen]

No such animal in Abba's Barnyard!

Aionios kolasis is NOT aidios kolasis.

Furthermore: there is no time contraints on the love & mercy of the God of Glory. ZERO!

Greetings again Dr. Barclay.

“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”

Is the love of God temporary?

NO!

Is God's mercy temporary?

NO!

Will God in His love & mercy save all Israel?

YES!

Will God in His love & mercy save all?

YES!

Is there an expiration date on the love & mercy of the Father?

Are you kidding! Surely you jest!

 

[Der Alte]

No such animal in Abba's Barnyard!
Aionios kolasis is NOT aidios kolasis.
Furthermore: there is no time contraints on the love & mercy of the God of Glory. ZERO!
Greetings again Dr. Barclay.
“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”

Just because some presumed scholar says something that does not make it so.
Barclay and his disciple FF are both wrong about kolasis. We need look no further than the NT to determine that.
κολασιν/kolasin the word correctly translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 occurs one other time in the NT in 1 Jn 4:18.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. [κολασιν/kolasin] He that feareth is not made perfect in love.​

There is no correction, those who have “kolasin” are not made perfect.
The language of the Greek Eastern Orthodox church has always been Greek. Who better to know the correct translation of Greek words, e.g. .κολασιν/kolasin” and αιωνιον/aionion” than the native Greek speaking translators of the EOB

THE EASTERN / GREEK ORTHODOX BIBI.E EOB) — NEW TESTAMENT 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them. saying ‘Amen. I tell you: a much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιωνιον/kolasin aionion] but the righteous into eternal 1ife.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/ton aionon] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
Not only does Paul, in 1 Tim 1:17, use “aionion” synonymously with “aidios,” Rom 1:20, Paul defines “aionon” in 1 Tim 1:17.
Some might argue that “aionon king” means “king of the age” but in this verse “aionion” is paired with “immortal.” An indefinite “age(s)” would not be “immortal.” Thus Paul has literally defined “aionion” as “eternal.”



​

 

[martymonster]

You misunderstand the Corinthian passage completely. Pauls judgment seat is called the bema- and all who stand before the bema are qualified (saved) and their works are tried either to be rewarded or not!

The lost stand before the judgment seat of God which is "thronos" to be sentenced.

Paul is saying that the same people who will be saved by fire, are the same group that will be destroyed. What are you even on about?

And you mis equate Gods dealing with sodom, Samaria and Jerusalem in the Ezekiwl passage. God was not saying that the people who were in sodom will return to their city and wicked ways and God will say it is okay by Him.

It clearly says that Sodom will return to it's former estate. What are you talking about here? Are you trying to say that he's talking about the city itself, but not the people? Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if you are. Nothing surprises me around here, anymore.

 

[Saint Steven]

The restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah from "eternal" fire

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Zephaniah 2:9
Therefore, as surely as I live,”
declares the Lord Almighty,
the God of Israel,
“surely Moab will become like Sodom,
the Ammonites like Gomorrah—
a place of weeds and salt pits,
a wasteland forever.
The remnant of my people will plunder them;
the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.”

Ezekiel 16:53
“‘However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,

 

[Saint Steven]

Listen mate, I'm a LOT humbler than you are, and probably righteouser as well!

Well... you're in pretty good company I'd say. - lol

Numbers 12:3
(Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.)

 

[Der Alte]

Paul is saying that the same people who will be saved by fire, are the same group that will be destroyed. What are you even on about?..

Wrong on two accounts. Paul does not say anyone is saved by fire.
And the ones who are saved are not the ones destroyed.

1 Corinthians 3:9-17
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

Throughout this passage Paul is talking to one specific group, not all mankind. That group is "labourers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building." vs. 9. who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ vss. 10-11
Throughout this passage "no man,""every man,""any man," refers to members of the group in vs. 9 not all mankind. Paul doesn't talk about the group in vss. 11-14 then suddenly start talking about all mankind in vs. 15.
Note carefully vs. 15 does not say any man shall be burned only the man's work is burned. And the work is what the man built on the foundation of Jesus Christ vs. 10-11, not all the work of all mankind.
And vs. 15 does not say the man is saved by fire, since the man was not burned, only the work is burned. He himself will be saved so as by fire.
And everyone is not saved vs.17 if anyone defiles the temple God him shall God destroy.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

God is the same today as He was in the beginning and as He will be in the future.

He loved us before we loved Him and made it ever so simple to gain salvation.

He gave the life of His own son.. for my salvation.. What more do you want?

The GLORY OF GOD. As all died in Adam, all are made alive in Christ. Just as you didn't choose to fall in Eden, you don't get to choose to be saved at Calvary. It's tetelestai, done, 'medical representative atonement'. Or do you think Adam's greater than Jesus?

Those condemned were NOT less capable than any of those that asked for salvation. Some atheists proudly tout themselves as far more intelligent than those fools who believe in a creator. Geniuses even.

Ironically, those who are considered more simple minded, I would bet, are more likely to accept the gospel.. than those with pompous, puffed up chests and arrogant pride in their superior intellect.

Pride is a killer, it's the sin of the world. And it blindsides its hapless prey. That's the nature of sin, it operates in a spiritual dimension that fallen man has only a very hazy understanding of, crouching at his door.

And what - because the young rape victim commits suicide blaming Jesus for not helping her, she gets eternal damnation? One-size-fits-all divine justice policy, eh? That's dopey man, really, c'mon.

Of course I'm guilty.. However, I am covered by the blood of Christ. Sin can touch me no more. This is not a license to sin.. I am always striving for a day without sin..

Well, you seem a little confused there. Are you trying to say the penalty of sin has been removed by Christ, but its power is something you need to overcome? If so, why can't you let Christ pay the debt for all of mankind?

Yes, there are many names given to place where people go after their death..

No mate, read your Bible, get rid of that rubbish that passes for the Western gospel. God is not a spiritual terrorist - 'Hey buddy, buy our wonderful product or burn in hell forever'. If that was your sales pitch, Fair Trading would shut your business down post haste.

And fair enough too, I've been considering running a test case on unconscionability grounds against some of these fake churches who stipulate eternal damnation as the only outcome for unredeemed sinners. It's not Biblical and it's not creedal. It brings opprobrium to God's name and enthrones the power of darkness. Now why do you suppose you can't see the truth there?

So, what is the sense of church, missionaries, testimonies, baptism, the lords table, evangelism???

If everyone ends up in the same place in the end... what's the point?...

The point is GOD's GLORY. You speak like a man who'd rather be out boozing and snorting coke but for the sake of afterlife insurance are sitting on your hands. God has reconciled the world to Him, and He'll have us all reconciled. Everyone will be salted with fire, and for some it will go hard, having to face the truth of their evil, wasted lives and let go of false identities. We get to endure the blessed sufferings now! It's called grace.

So tell me JB, what does the total victory of Christ look like to you?