Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

[Saint Steven]

As regards animal sacrifices, dietary laws, ceremonial observances and sabbaths, each was to be "observed as a statute for ever" (Ex. 31:16-17; II Chron. 2:4; Lev. 16:31). But the New Testament clearly shows that these were, one and all, but "carnal ordinances imposed UNTIL the time of reformation" (Heb. 9:10). It is clear - if "for ever" really meant ETERNAL - we would still be offering sheep, bullocks, and goats as sacrifices to God! But - more startling still - the idea of endlessness does not adhere even to the reign of Christ. Heb. 1:8 says, "But unto the Son He says, Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever..." Now turning to another Scripture bearing on the same subject, we obtain additional light on this subject. "Then comes the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign TILL He has put all enemies under His feet. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, THEN SHALL THE SON ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT UNTO HIM that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all" (I Cor. 15:24-25,28). The Kingdom of the Son will have a conclusion. In some remote time the Son delivers up the Kingdom to the Father, the Kingdom continues no longer in the rule of Sonship, but in the rule of Fatherhood, that God may be known no longer in and through the Son and the Sons, but transcendentally as ALL IN ALL!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Yes because it's such a long and arduous process.. that takes so much personal sacrifice and laborious tasks... NOT..

Not sure what you're saying here. The passage in question was Matt 7:21-23 'depart from me', and what Jesus meant by 'practice lawlessness'.

But overcoming is about dying to self and living to Christ. The Bible uses that kind of language.

How are we "hemmed in by terror" again? This only works if the path to paradise is littered with hurdles and tests and labor.. However, the path to paradise is straight and the Lords load is light. There is no works, levels of accomplishments, tasks, tests, duties.. or anything to be saved... Just one thing.. A humble heart to admit the truth.. you are a sinner and need salvation.. .which is totally FREE.

So why do you say that EVERYONE won't come to believe, either in this world or in the GWT judgment, ie the second death? Doesn't God want everyone to come to a knowledge of the truth? Doesn't that first require the enemies of the world (Babylon), death and the devil to be removed from the equation?

No, he's talking to the high priests and their hypocritical methods.

He's always doing that, but on this occasion he calls them sons of hell. And not just for effect. He's trying to get the message into their stubborn skulls.

 

[Saint Steven]

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. (Jn 8:34)

You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. (Rom 6:18)

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; (Isa 61:1)

Does is sound like fallen man can make a 'free and informed choice' to be saved?

 

[Saint Steven]

Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. (Jn 8:34)

You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. (Rom 6:18)

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; (Isa 61:1)

Does is sound like fallen man can make a 'free and informed choice' to be saved?

Yup. Reminded me of this one.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Yup. Reminded me of this one.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

How about this?

Then Jesus declared, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind may see and those who see may become blind. (John 9:39)

 

[Saint Steven]

Dear reader, it is high time to stop acting the fool. It is high time to cease from exalting ourselves and our ignorant imaginings above the knowledge of God. It is high time to bow in humble submission to His Word and cease our own blasphemous and ignorant prattlings. It is high time for a lot of people to curb their wagging tongues and do some listening for a change, if perchance they might at length learn something worth talking about. The Hebrew word OLAM and its Greek equivalent, AION, mean a limited time, an age, and their plural means ages. No one who is sane and reasonable can maintain otherwise. To do so is to contradict all known facts and to contradict God's own Word. That is precisely what all the "eternal damnation" people are guilty of. God be merciful to them!

Let us look at how the word AION is used in a number of passages. About 37 times in the New Testament it is rendered "world," twice as "worlds," twice as "ages," and once as "course." Every place where the word "eternal" appears, with but one exception, it is a translation of this word AION or its adjective form AIONIOS. Twice it is rendered "evermore." Every place where the word "everlasting" appears, but one, it is this same word or its adjective form. With but thirteen exceptions, every place where the word "ever" appears it is the same word or its adjective form. And aside from all this confusion, the word also appears in the plural, and in a number of confusing combinations, such as "the aion of the aion," "the aion of the aions," and "the aions of the aions," etc.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[Saint Steven]

How about this?

Then Jesus declared, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind may see and those who see may become blind. (John 9:39)

More proof that it really is up to Him, not up to us. And begs this question...

If (since) Jesus INTENTIONALLY blinded the eyes of the wicked, to WHAT will he hold them responsible? WAS IT THEIR FAULT THAT THEY WERE BLIND ??????????? What "punishment" would fit such a crime" ????

 

[FineLinen]

That thread seemed to have wound down.

Are you kidding you big kidder?

Mankind (especially fundi's) loves the ghastly dogma of a God who torments only them, not us, the smart ones who make good decisions.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

More proof that it really is up to Him, not up to us. And begs this question...

If (since) Jesus INTENTIONALLY blinded the eyes of the wicked, to WHAT will he hold them responsible? WAS IT THEIR FAULT THAT THEY WERE BLIND ??????????? What "punishment" would fit such a crime" ????

Could it be this one:
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. (Rom 9:18)

For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (Rom 11:32)

 

[Bobber]

God has a plan indeed, God has a wonderful plan for this world! It is a plan of which the architectural drawings were made in eternity. It encompasses the minutest detail of all of creation. I assure you that when time has run its course, and the veil is dropped upon the final scene, we shall discover that that plan has been worked out to its very tiniest detail, just as God had planned it in eternity - that His will has been done!

It all depends on what one means that his will was done. His will has always been done in that it's his will to give men free will to choose A over B. Wrong choices can lead to darkness or destruction but such doesn't mean it was God's will for it actually to exist that is that he commissioned things to take place. Jesus also told us to pray, Your kingdom come....your will be done....on earth as it is in heaven......If everything WAS God's will anyway there would be no reason to pray.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Are you kidding you big kidder?

Mankind (especially fundi's) loves the ghastly dogma of a God who torments only them, not us, the smart ones who make good decisions.

And because we are clearly the most humble and righteous! First in the Kingdom.

 

[FineLinen]

His will has always been done in that it's his will to give men free will to choose A over B.

Nonsense!

Man is a will.

The question is whose will prevails, the creature or the Creator?

"For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope..."

What was the purpose for the unwilling subjection to futility by Him, the Will of all wills?

 

[Saint Steven]

Could it be this one:
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. (Rom 9:18)

For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (Rom 11:32)

Certainly the second one. (Romans 11:32)
I have always been curious about this one that comes up prior to Rom. 9:18.
Mercy is when you don't get what you deserve. (grace instead of justice)
Compassion is when you get what you don't deserve. (grace in time of need)
Positive opposites. (both are grace)

Romans 9:15
For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

 

[FineLinen]

And because we are clearly the most humble and righteous! First in the Kingdom.

Yup! The title of my new book =

My Humility & How I Attained It.

The next in line =

The Excellent Choices I Have Made To Become Righteous.

 

[Saint Steven]

It all depends on what one means that his will was done. His will has always been done in that it's his will to give men free will to choose A over B. Wrong choices can lead to darkness or destruction but such doesn't mean it was God's will for it actually to exist that is that he commissioned things to take place. Jesus also told us to pray, Your kingdom come....your will be done....on earth as it is in heaven......If everything WAS God's will anyway there would be no reason to pray.

Wrong decisions are indeed within the will of God. He invented sin. (and redemption)
None of this took him by surprise. The God that planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the very center of the Garden (where it could not be overlooked) knew EXACTLY what was coming.

Sin is the fertilizer that made grace grow. Sin and punishment not being the goal or end, but rather grace and forgiveness.

Like the natural order of things. A tree grows and produces a leaf. When mature, the leaf dies and falls to the ground. Dead leaves are the mulch from which fresh new life springs. Therefore, death produces life. This is the divine order of things.

Can there ever be great victory without a great struggle? And the worse the foe, the more glorious the celebration. And doesn't God himself love an amazing story? Why would his divine plan end in defeat?

Romans 5:20-21
The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Der Alte]

Dear reader, it is high time to stop acting the fool. It is high time to cease from exalting ourselves and our ignorant imaginings above the knowledge of God. It is high time to bow in humble submission to His Word and cease our own blasphemous and ignorant prattlings. It is high time for a lot of people to curb their wagging tongues and do some listening for a change, if perchance they might at length learn something worth talking about. The Hebrew word OLAM and its Greek equivalent, AION, mean a limited time, an age, and their plural means ages. No one who is sane and reasonable can maintain otherwise. To do so is to contradict all known facts and to contradict God's own Word. That is precisely what all the "eternal damnation" people are guilty of. God be merciful to them!
Let us look at how the word AION is used in a number of passages. About 37 times in the New Testament it is rendered "world," twice as "worlds," twice as "ages," and once as "course." Every place where the word "eternal" appears, with but one exception, it is a translation of this word AION or its adjective form AIONIOS. Twice it is rendered "evermore." Every place where the word "everlasting" appears, but one, it is this same word or its adjective form. With but thirteen exceptions, every place where the word "ever" appears it is the same word or its adjective form. And aside from all this confusion, the word also appears in the plural, and in a number of confusing combinations, such as "the aion of the aion," "the aion of the aions," and "the aions of the aions," etc.
Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

The person being quoted in this post J. Preston Eby shows no qualification in either Hebrew or Greek. Everything he says is nothing but his unsupported, biased opinion.
What is it called when a word is exaggerated for emphasis? Hyperbole. For example there were actual foxes at the time of Jesus but Herod was not literally a fox when Jesus called him that. Hyperbole! There were actual stones at the time of Jesus but Simon was not literally a stone when Jesus called him "Petros." Hyperbole! There was actual thunder at the time of Jesus but James and John were not literally descended from thunder when Jesus called them sons of thunder. Hyperbole!
Does "olam" mean "eternal" Here are a few verses where it is defined as eternal.

Ecclesiastes 3:14
14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [ עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.​

In this verse "olam" is paired with "nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it"

Habakkuk 1:12
[18](12) LORD, are you not from everlasting? [ עולם] My God, my Holy One, you will never die. You, LORD, have appointed them to execute judgment; you, my Rock, have ordained them to punish.​

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “will never die,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will never die,” ”eternal” does.

Daniel 7:14
[15](14) He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting [ עולם] dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “will not pass away” and “never be destroyed,” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not pass away, never be destroyed”, “eternal” does.
Jesus defined "aionios" as eternal several times.

John 3:15
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον /aionion] life.
John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον /aionion] life.​

In the two verses "aionion" is paired with "should not perish." By definition "aionion" means eternal.
Jesus uses the word "aionion" twenty nine times. He never uses if for something which is or could not be eternal.

 

[JacksBratt]

I don't disagree with any of the above JB. We were discussing Matt 25:46 and its apparent warning that the 'goats', being believers who fail to do the stipulated works (eg helping the poor - the Catholics interpret these as 'corporal works'), are condemned to eternal damnation.

So you, being Protestant after Luther, also need to contend with the apparent literal interpretation of that passage, which would indicate on its face that faith without works is doomed.

This passage is speaking of the people that come through the tribulation. Not those saved in this time period.

This is part of the Olivet Discourse... and is dealing with Israel's future during the millennial reign of Christ.

The bigger picture though, is the resounding question 'Who do you say that God is?' Is He the God who delights in mercy, whose grace abounds over sin, who is seen in the Son, and in the teachings of the Spirit? Who is love - patient, kind, gentle, forbearing, longsuffering etc.? Or does His wrath know no bounds? Is He callous, heartless, sadistic, hypocritical, a failure, a loser against the will of fallen man and the devil?

God is the same today as He was in the beginning and as He will be in the future.

He loved us before we loved Him and made it ever so simple to gain salvation.

He gave the life of His own son.. for my salvation.. What more do you want?

I hope you'll do some introspection my friend, and ask whether love could ever abide eternal damnation, especially when most of those condemned were less than capable of making the right choice, enslaved by sin and deceived by the devil and the sorceries of the harlot.

Those condemned were NOT less capable than any of those that asked for salvation. Some atheists proudly tout themselves as far more intelligent than those fools who believe in a creator. Geniuses even.

Ironically, those who are considered more simple minded, I would bet, are more likely to accept the gospel.. than those with pompous, puffed up chests and arrogant pride in their superior intellect.

Everyone has a time that God will justly use to determine where they spend eternity.

Do you think that some are oblivious to these facts of the future and God is oblivious to this? God just condemns them unjustly? Seriously?

And look carefully at the Bible translations for the word 'hell' and related concepts. Hades, Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are not the same things. Jesus has the keys to death and Hades, and he uses them to release the dead (Rev 20:13-15). He warns believers they could go to Gehenna if we call (or think in our hearts) our brother to be a fool (Mt 5:22). Are you guilty? I certainly need to be purged of that kind of anger and pride.

Of course I'm guilty.. However, I am covered by the blood of Christ. Sin can touch me no more. This is not a license to sin.. I am always striving for a day without sin..

Yes, there are many names given to place where people go after their death.. when they don't go to paradise... Also, there may be different places do to the time.. as in before the Great White throne judgement and after.

Just as all died in Adam, all were made alive in Christ. All are justified, but many don't know it yet, so they can't embark on the participatory process of sanctification - growing in faith and love etc. But who is fully purified by the time he dies? He who says he's without sin is a liar. That's our hope, for all creation to be cleansed and healed. The first last and the last first.

'And the leaves of the tree of life were for the healing of the nations' (Rev 22:2b).

So don't worry. The Gospel is UNCONDITIONAL good news, lol is there any other kind? So like my tagline below says (shout out to Mrs F.L. btw), everyone will come to Christ, once the veils are removed. That's the great victory of God - to have His enemies fall to their knees in total submissive worship crying 'Abba - Father, you have done it!' Hence the apocalipsis - REVELATION of the truth.

So, what is the sense of church, missionaries, testimonies, baptism, the lords table, evangelism???

If everyone ends up in the same place in the end... what's the point?...

 

[JacksBratt]

The opposition seems to think they have won some sort of victory by chasing us off of this other topic.

Are those who deny eternal punishment doomed to Hell?

Those who deny eternal punishment are not doomed to Hell... just due for a surprise.

 

[JacksBratt]

Of course you would disagree. We are at opposite ends of the spectrum in relation to the doctrines of the final judgments.

And you misunderstand salvation in the here and now as well.

The Apostle tells us that it is by grace that we HAVE BEEN saved. (past tense) Therefore in the here and now. Lots more where that came from if you need more scripture.

And no, that doesn't mean a life of ease. But it sure makes life better. Do you deny that?

There is more than one kind of salvation.

My life is no better than my unbelieving neighbor... I get no "perks" because I'm a Christian... I am not immune to disease, car accidents, deaths in the family, heart ache, job loss, and other disappointments of this life... I am in this world.. but not of this world... .. I just have knowledge of eternal paradise.