Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

[Saint Steven]

@nolidad 's post #322

God Bless!

Why do you assume I haven't read the Bible? That's ridiculous.

 

[Saint Steven]

While the King James version states that these goats go into everlasting fire and everlasting punishment and the sheep enter into life eternal, that is not quite the meaning of the Greek. The Greek word here translated everlasting and eternal is AIONIOS and AIONIOS is the adjective form of the Greek noun AION. Some have arrogantly contended that the punishment must be everlasting because the same word is used of the life of God - eternal life - and if the punishment is not eternal then the life cannot be eternal. But that is an argument put forth by the ignorant, the result of the shallow reasoning of men who reach hasty conclusions not founded on the facts. "If the punishment ends then God's life must end, if the life is eternal then the punishment must be eternal," we are told!

In late years there has been much controversy over the meaning of the little Greek word AION. Certain deceivers, to further their unscrupulous ends and uphold their blasphemous and Romanish doctrine of eternal damnation, have maintained, contrary to and in spite of all revealed facts, that it means eternal. And our King James version renders it, together with the adjective AIONIOS as "age, course, eternal, for ever, evermore, for ever and ever, everlasting, world, beginning of the world, world began, world without end." What a horrible mixture!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[JacksBratt]

Who's your Daddy?

If your neighbor was torturing people in his basement, would you defend his good character?

What?

How is that even a relevant parallel..

 

[pescador]

While the King James version states that these goats go into everlasting fire and everlasting punishment and the sheep enter into life eternal, that is not quite the meaning of the Greek. The Greek word here translated everlasting and eternal is AIONIOS and AIONIOS is the adjective form of the Greek noun AION. Some have arrogantly contended that the punishment must be everlasting because the same word is used of the life of God - eternal life - and if the punishment is not eternal then the life cannot be eternal. But that is an argument put forth by the ignorant, the result of the shallow reasoning of men who reach hasty conclusions not founded on the facts. "If the punishment ends then God's life must end, if the life is eternal then the punishment must be eternal," we are told!

In late years there has been much controversy over the meaning of the little Greek word AION. Certain deceivers, to further their unscrupulous ends and uphold their blasphemous and Romanish doctrine of eternal damnation, have maintained, contrary to and in spite of all revealed facts, that it means eternal. And our King James version renders it, together with the adjective AIONIOS as "age, course, eternal, for ever, evermore, for ever and ever, everlasting, world, beginning of the world, world began, world without end." What a horrible mixture!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

What are your translation credentials?

 

[JacksBratt]

Again... I think I have heard this before.

Psalm 62:11-12
One thing God has spoken,
two things I have heard:
“Power belongs to you, God,
12 and with you, Lord, is unfailing love”;
and, “You reward everyone
according to what they have done.”

Ya... OT.... before Christ died for our sins.. there was things that they needed to "do" for forgiveness.

Not now.. The curtain was ripped from top to bottom... Christ was the final offering.

 

[JacksBratt]

Here is what you said, which I quoted. Got it now?

JacksBratt said: ↑
Some even stating that "Hell is where all the fun people will be"..

Saint Steven said: ↑
Do you suppose God is big enough to handle that sort of criticism?
Or does he have white hot fury reserved for any who oppose him?

OK.. so.. let me put it more plainly..

People are so deranged that they think that Hell is a party... That's where all the fun people are.. that's where the dancing and partying and fun debauchery will be a happin'n. The rock concerts and bars open all night...

Well it's not..

Me thinks that this is why some want to go there instead of heaven... where they also think it will be like some perpetual church service...

Does this help?

 

[JacksBratt]

Correction and restoration is not earning anything.

How does he gain this correction and restoration?

 

[Saint Steven]

What?

How is that even a relevant parallel..

Two separate ideas.

We deserve heaven as our inheritance. We are God's children, created in his image.
What sort of father corrects his children by putting them in the oven? Unthinkable.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Who's your Daddy?

If your neighbor was torturing people in his basement, would you defend his good character?

 

[Saint Steven]

How does he gain this correction and restoration?

The correction and restoration is not something to gain. It's something to endure.
There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (like a conversion experience - lol)

 

[martymonster]

Simple! Many people have great learning in the languages but are not spiritual so they reject the concepts or teachings of the Word.

And then there are believers who butcher the Word because they are lousy at grammar, languages and context! Being abeliever is essential to know the One who the word is written about, but you still need to know how to read the pages correctly or you will fail in understanding the truths being taught to live them in the spirit.

I'm well aware of the importance of translation, etc.
I'm just saying that a spiritual understanding is more important. There are a lot of big name ministers with an excellent education, who don't have a clue.

 

[Saint Steven]

What are your translation credentials?

I'm quoting from a book. See the OP.
You know what a sock puppet is, right?

Does your heart-shaped Bible have a forever burning hell?

 

[Der Alte]

I'm well aware of the importance of translation, etc.
I'm just saying that a spiritual understanding is more important. There are a lot of big name ministers with an excellent education, who don't have a clue.

Sez who? Heterodox folks put down anyone who disagrees with them as not having a clue.

 

[martymonster]

That's just wacked...

Show me where hell is for a short time and then you are released. With Scripture.

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

How can someone be destroyed and yet saved by fire, unless being destroyed does not mean what you think it means.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

How is it that Sodom is suffering the vengeance of eternal fire, but then is returned to it's former estate?

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

Wow, this verse seems to be saying the complete opposite of what you are asserting. It's actually the righteous who will dwell in the fire, not sinners. I didn't see any mention of serial killers residing in the fire, there.

 

[Saint Steven]

John 5:24-26
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

 

[Der Alte]

John 5:24-26
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

That seems to say that all mankind will be reconciled but let's read the next two verses.

John 5:27-29
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.​

In Matt Jesus said this.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Luke 13:27-30
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.​

 

[Saint Steven]

But we need not remain in darkness, for fortunately the Word of God tells us precisely what this Greek word means. Too few have taken the time or energy to consider the real meaning of AION. It is the word from which we get our English word eon. Eon, according to Webster, means "a long period of TIME." Many attempts have been made to prove that eons are eternal. But this is more than a grave error, it is the height of stupidity, for the divine Author of the blessed Bible has not Himself used them in that way. AION nowhere means eternal! Its simple meaning is an age. In its plural form it means ages. This fact can be unquestionably and incontrovertibly demonstrated from numerous New Testament passages. A glance at any Greek concordance proves that the noun AION, or AGE, is not the synonym of eternity. A study of each case would make a library; so, leaving this task to the reader, we must content ourselves with adducing a few specimens to demonstrate the fact. It is usage that determines meanings - THEIR usage, not ours; the meanings that the holy prophets and apostles gave to their words rather than those that our English translators may try to give. Let me illustrate.

The term forever (and its equivalents, eternal and everlasting) often occurs when it cannot possibly mean unending. In the story of Jonah one is surprised to hear him say while in the belly of the fish, "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever" (Jon. 2:6). But he was in the fish only three days and three nights! When a Hebrew slave loved his master and did not wish to go free at the end of the seventh year, we read, "... His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever" (Ex. 21:6). Of course, that couldn't be longer than his life span. Again, when Solomon built the temple unto the Lord, he began his prayer of dedication with the statement, "I have surely built You a house to dwell in, a settled place for You to abide in for ever" (I Kings. 8:13). And the Lord answered Solomon, "I have heard your prayer and supplication that you have made before Me: I have hallowed this house, which you have built, to put My name there for ever" (I Kings. 9:3). But Solomon's temple lasted for only about 400 years! And it was never in God's mind to dwell there for ever!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[Der Alte]

But we need not remain in darkness, for fortunately the Word of God tells us precisely what this Greek word means. Too few have taken the time or energy to consider the real meaning of AION. It is the word from which we get our English word eon. Eon, according to Webster, means "a long period of TIME." Many attempts have been made to prove that eons are eternal. But this is more than a grave error, it is the height of stupidity, for the divine Author of the blessed Bible has not Himself used them in that way. AION nowhere means eternal! Its simple meaning is an age. In its plural form it means ages. This fact can be unquestionably and incontrovertibly demonstrated from numerous New Testament passages. A glance at any Greek concordance proves that the noun AION, or AGE, is not the synonym of eternity. A study of each case would make a library; so, leaving this task to the reader, we must content ourselves with adducing a few specimens to demonstrate the fact. It is usage that determines meanings - THEIR usage, not ours; the meanings that the holy prophets and apostles gave to their words rather than those that our English translators may try to give. Let me illustrate.
The term forever (and its equivalents, eternal and everlasting) often occurs when it cannot possibly mean unending. In the story of Jonah one is surprised to hear him say while in the belly of the fish, "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever" (Jon. 2:6). But he was in the fish only three days and three nights! When a Hebrew slave loved his master and did not wish to go free at the end of the seventh year, we read, "... His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever" (Ex. 21:6). Of course, that couldn't be longer than his life span. Again, when Solomon built the temple unto the Lord, he began his prayer of dedication with the statement, "I have surely built You a house to dwell in, a settled place for You to abide in for ever" (I Kings. 8:13). And the Lord answered Solomon, "I have heard your prayer and supplication that you have made before Me: I have hallowed this house, which you have built, to put My name there for ever" (I Kings. 9:3). But Solomon's temple lasted for only about 400 years! And it was never in God's mind to dwell there for ever!
Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

J.P. Eby is being quoted as an expert in Greek but his biography does not list any qualifications in Greek. Everything he says about Greek is his unsupported opinion.
About J. Preston Eby – Kingdom Resources

 

[JacksBratt]

The Bible clearly addresses this.

Romans 4:15
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

Not sure what you are implying here.

 

[JacksBratt]

You are the one going on and on about a relationship not being forced.
And about all those who have rejected Christ. Tough choice? Seems so.
Countless billions according to Damnationism.

If there is no damnation.. what is the whole deal with "believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved"? Or John 3:16?

Why not eat, drink and be merry.. for tomorrow we die and God is too good to leave us in hell forever....

The whole idea of repentance, acceptance of Christ, the Lords supper, missionary work.. "Go into all the world and preach the gospel"...

Your view would make all of us fools....

 

[JacksBratt]

You can nope, nope, nope till Father's cows come home. Little innocent children grow up to be full grown sinners, the product of Adam1 and disobedience. It is called depravity (doctrine of original sin).

But fear not!

The many "made sinners" = the many "made righteous."

That is the Theos equation.

Search = "age of accountability".

Your search query has yielded no results.

Please modify your query and try again.

Yes... they do.. and they are even sinners before they understand what repentance is..

However, they will not be held to the same judgement as those who full well knew.. and chose not to care or chose to reject Christ.. or don't believe in Him.