Is this injustice?

[Kenny'sID]

He would because otherwise nobody would be saved. And it’s happened since before creation.

He would what? I honestly don't understand what you are saying there at all, nor do I see how it fits with/answers my 2 questions?

 

[Hammster]

He would what? I honestly don't understand what you are saying there at all, nor do I see how it fits with/answers my 2 questions?

Why would we suppose God would do something like that to begin with?

He would because otherwise nobody would be saved

Hopefully that clears up my response.

 

[Kenny'sID]

To add to my last post, I've seen this happen several times here on any given subject. A poster will understand something in their mind to mean something, and they assume others follow their thought process, when they do not.

Point being what you think may need a lot more explaining to even get others to understand it.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Hopefully that clears up my response.

I'm still clueless, and will need the long version of explanation.

 

[ZNP]

What if the Five not chosen were generally nicer people and gave more to charity and helped old ladies across the street?

What we do doesn’t matter.

seriously?

James 2:12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Matt 18:23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold[h] was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

 

[DamianWarS]

We know that some do and some don’t.

if that's all we know then it's Schrodinger's Mercy it's not injustice.

 

[ZNP]

Why would we suppose God would do something like that to begin with?

Are there instances where he did?

See Matt 18:23-35

 

[solid_core]

(Borrowed)

Suppose 10 people sin and sin equally. Suppose God punishes five of them, and is merciful to the other five.

Is this injustice?

Its inequality, not injustice.

It would be injustice, if people were not guilty of their sinning, for exmple if the sinning was simply their existence or other natural things they can not change.

Now, the question can also be, if inequality is injustice. Such topic resonates in western society last decade.

 

[Hammster]

I'm still clueless, and will need the long version of explanation.

You asked “Why would we suppose God would do something like that to begin with?”

The reason why is that we are all sinners with no affection towards God. We are enemies, and are at enmity against Him. No one seeks after Him. So left to ourselves, we would never seek Him our, and certainly we would not choose to repent and believe. And if God sent us all to hell, He would be just in doing so.


But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
— Ephesians 2:4-7

The fact that this doesn’t apply to everyone does not mean that He is unjust for not saving everyone, even though He could. It means that He “works all things after the counsel of His will” ( Ephesians 1:11).

 

[Hammster]

seriously?

James 2:12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Matt 18:23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold[h] was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

Good verses. How does that answer the question? I’d hate to assume your intended use.

 

[ZNP]

Its inequality, not injustice.

It would be injustice, if people were not guilty of their sinning, for exmple if the sinning was simply their existence or other natural things they can not change.

Now, the question can also be, if inequality is injustice. Such topic resonates in western society last decade.

No, it is justice. The Lord commanded us to "do unto others as you would have them do to you". Since we all want to be treated with mercy the corollary of this commandment is to treat others with mercy. This is reenforced in Matt 18 where the Lord says that since He has shown us mercy in forgiving us our debt we also should do the same with others.

Then James tells us that judgement without mercy will be shown to anyone who is not merciful. Again, the same thing that the Lord told us when He said "with what judgement you judge you shall be judged".

 

[ZNP]

Good verses. How does that answer the question? I’d hate to assume your intended use.

See post #153

 

[Hammster]

See post #153

I’m not trying to be obtuse, but I’m not getting your point in relation to the OP.

 

[Kenny'sID]

You asked “Why would we suppose God would do something like that to begin with?”

The reason why is that we are all sinners with no affection towards God. We are enemies, and are at enmity against Him. No one seeks after Him. So left to ourselves, we would never seek Him our, and certainly we would not choose to repent and believe. And if God sent us all to hell, He would be just in doing so.


But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
— Ephesians 2:4-7

The fact that this doesn’t apply to everyone does not mean that He is unjust for not saving everyone, even though He could. It means that He “works all things after the counsel of His will” ( Ephesians 1:11).

OK, thanks.

Forgive me for cutting to the chase, but it just makes things easier. Is this all about defending, "We need do nothing but "say" we believe in order to get to heaven"?

I just find it easier to thwart the end result than to try to unravel all you say there, but I'll get to that once I get an answer. However, I will say, I personally am not an "enemy" to God.

 

[ZNP]

I’m not trying to be obtuse, but I’m not getting your point in relation to the OP.

The Lord will not judge us equally with regards to mercy, that is clear in the Bible from the verse "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy". However, the Bible does tell us "whom God will have mercy on".

1. If you treat others mercifully, you also will be treated mercifully.

In Matt 18 we see someone who was saved by the Lord, forgiven their entire debt of sin and then did not show any mercy to another person. God was angry with this and judged him without mercy. This is a warning that if you do not show mercy to others you won't receive mercy either.

Jesus told us with what judgement we judge we shall be judged. When coupled with His command to do unto others as we would have them do unto us this suggests that we can determine the judgement we will get based on the judgement we give. But there is more, the Bible says that God loved Jacob and hated Esau. The Bible also says that God loves those that keep His commandments. Treat others with mercy and you are keeping the Lord's commandment to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. You will be loved of God and at the judgement seat you will receive a merciful judgement.

So the OP asked if this was "injustice". The answer is no. You have the option to choose how you will be judged. Either judgement whether merciful or not will be righteous based on your actions and your response to the Lord's commands.

 

[Hammster]

OK, thanks.

Forgive me for cutting to the chase, but it just makes things easier. Is this all about defending, "We need do nothing but "say" we believe in order to get to heaven"?

I just find it easier to thwart the end result than to try to unravel all you say there, but I'll get to that once I get an answer. However, I will say, I personally am not an "enemy" to God.

If you’re saved, this is true. Believers are no longer enemies.

And to answer your question, no. It’s more along the lines of discussing whether or not God can choose to save who He wants with no regards to our so-called worthiness.

 

[HARK!]

(Borrowed)

Suppose 10 people sin and sin equally. Suppose God punishes five of them, and is merciful to the other five.

Is this injustice?

How many believed in him?

 

[renniks]

(Borrowed)

Suppose 10 people sin and sin equally. Suppose God punishes five of them, and is merciful to the other five.

Is this injustice?

Were all offered mercy? Did some refuse? Would it be just for me to see 10 people drowning and only rescue five if I had the means to easily rescue all, but I just ignore the other five for no discernable reason?

 

[Hammster]

The Lord will not judge us equally with regards to mercy, that is clear in the Bible from the verse "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy". However, the Bible does tell us "whom God will have mercy on".

1. If you treat others mercifully, you also will be treated mercifully.

In Matt 18 we see someone who was saved by the Lord, forgiven their entire debt of sin and then did not show any mercy to another person. God was angry with this and judged him without mercy. This is a warning that if you do not show mercy to others you won't receive mercy either.

Jesus told us with what judgement we judge we shall be judged. When coupled with His command to do unto others as we would have them do unto us this suggests that we can determine the judgement we will get based on the judgement we give. But there is more, the Bible says that God loved Jacob and hated Esau. The Bible also says that God loves those that keep His commandments. Treat others with mercy and you are keeping the Lord's commandment to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. You will be loved of God and at the judgement seat you will receive a merciful judgement.

So the OP asked if this was "injustice". The answer is no. You have the option to choose how you will be judged. Either judgement whether merciful or not will be righteous based on your actions and your response to the Lord's commands.

Thanks. How does that relate to the OP? Are you saying that God is only merciful to those that are merciful?

 

[Hammster]

How many believed in him?

Loaded question. It could be all of them, depending on what’s meant by believe.