Is this injustice?

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Hammster

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Were all offered mercy? Did some refuse? Would it be just for me to see 10 people drowning and only rescue five if I had the means to easily rescue all, but I just ignore the other five for no discernable reason?
The reason He didn’t save the five was because they were sinners who deserved wrath.
 
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ZNP

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If you’re saved, this is true. Believers are no longer enemies.

And to answer your question, no. It’s more along the lines of discussing whether or not God can choose to save who He wants with no regards to our so-called worthiness.
No its not. Our salvation is based on righteousness. If you receive the Lord by faith, call on His name, you shall be saved. Doesn't matter if God hates you and you are the least merciful person on the planet. It is a matter of righteousness and God's word.

Mercy on the other hand is different. If I am judged by the letter of the law at the Lord's judgment seat it will be incredibly uncomfortable. It will come across as petty, and anal. Yet, if that is how I have treated others it will be a righteous judgement. Doesn't mean I won't be saved, only that I will not get out of that judgment till I have paid the very last penny. On the other hand if I have been extremely merciful in my life, showing mercy to many, many people who have wronged me whether slight wrongs or even great wrongs, then I may find the judgement at the Lord's throne very merciful with many of my failings being given a pass.
 
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zoidar

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I'm still clueless, and will need the long version of explanation.

The idea (of Hamnster) is that everybody are equal sinners, and everyone deserves death, but that God picks out people among the sinners to save, purely from a decision made from the beginning of time, without taking any person's free will choices into account. No one can choose by free will to become a Christian. God chooses who He wants to save, among equally guilty and powerless people. The idea ... basically ... Is that injustice?
 
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Hammster

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No its not. Our salvation is based on righteousness. If you receive the Lord by faith, call on His name, you shall be saved. Doesn't matter if God hates you and you are the least merciful person on the planet. It is a matter of righteousness and God's word.

Mercy on the other hand is different. If I am judged by the letter of the law at the Lord's judgment seat it will be incredibly uncomfortable. It will come across as petty, and anal. Yet, if that is how I have treated others it will be a righteous judgement. Doesn't mean I won't be saved, only that I will not get out of that judgment till I have paid the very last penny. On the other hand if I have been extremely merciful in my life, showing mercy to many, many people who have wronged me whether slight wrongs or even great wrongs, then I may find the judgement at the Lord's throne very merciful with many of my failings being given a pass.
How exactly will you pay every penny?
 
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Kenny'sID

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And to answer your question, no. It’s more along the lines of discussing whether or not God can choose to save who He wants with no regards to our so-called worthiness.

God can "choose" to do anything he wants to do, so not sure how to address that.

That said, my view on that is, God saves those who show their worth by being obedient. Meaning, those who are obedient to him are not considered worthless at all.
 
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bling

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Suppose 10 people sin and sin equally. Suppose God punishes five of them, and is merciful to the other five.

Is this injustice?
The total “injustice”, is in the fact God presents Himself (Christ being the very best example) as Loving (mercy is an expression of that Love) everyone equally, so to turn and only show mercy to some and not to everyone is contradictory to what He has said and presented.

There is also the fact mature adults cannot keep from sinning initially without the power from the indwelling Holy Spirit and the power that comes from having Godly type Love, so the punishment should come upon those who refuse to be Lovingly disciplined and not just any five people.
 
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ZNP

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Thanks. How does that relate to the OP? Are you saying that God is only merciful to those that are merciful?
Did you read Matt 18? The Lord's salvation and death was mercy to everyone. That said we should in turn treat others mercifully. Do not confuse righteousness with mercy.

If a cop pulls me over for doing 30 in a 25 mph zone he can treat me with mercy, warning me and letting me go, or he can write up a ticket. The ticket is not unrighteous just not merciful. Also, you might argue that this cop had pulled the same car over seven times and was tired of hearing this drivers apologies. That was the context of the Matt 18 verse not 7 times but 7 times 70
 
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ZNP

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How exactly will you pay every penny?
According to Matt 18 he is thrown into prison until he pays the last penny. If you want to go into greater detail on what that prison and paying the last penny could be you should start a new thread because that topic will certainly hijack this thread. Give me a heads up so I can participate in your thread.
 
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Hammster

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God can "choose" to do anything he wants to do, so not sure how to address that.

That said, my view on that is, God saves those who show their worth by being obedient. Meaning, those who are obedient to him are not considered worthless at all.
So then God saves because of the merit of those whom He saves. Does that sum it up?
 
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Kenny'sID

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The idea (of Hamnster) is that everybody are equal sinners, and everyone deserves death, but that God picks out people among the sinners to save, purely from a decision made from the beginning of time, without taking any person's free will choices into account. No one can choose by free will to become a Christian. God chooses who He wants to save, among equally guilty and powerless people. The idea ... basically ... Is that injustice?

OK, thank you very much, that helps tremendously.

And for the reason I'm not Calvinist, there is just too much to disagree with there, something that has been hashed out time and time again here, so I know doing it again will change nothing.

So I may stick with the argument I'm on presently...much easier. :)
 
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ZNP

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The idea (of Hamnster) is that everybody are equal sinners, and everyone deserves death, but that God picks out people among the sinners to save, purely from a decision made from the beginning of time, without taking any person's free will choices into account. No one can choose by free will to become a Christian. God chooses who He wants to save, among equally guilty and powerless people. The idea ... basically ... Is that injustice?
If that is the idea the OP is a major blunder, we are not saved based on God's mercy but based on God's righteousness. These are two very different and distinct things.

According to Romans 10 if I call on the Lord and believe in my heart that God has raised Him from the dead I shall be saved.

If God decides He doesn't want to save me then He is unrighteous and since His kingdom is established on righteousness this will be the undoing of God's kingdom.
 
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Hammster

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Did you read Matt 18? The Lord's salvation and death was mercy to everyone. That said we should in turn treat others mercifully. Do not confuse righteousness with mercy.

If a cop pulls me over for doing 30 in a 25 mph zone he can treat me with mercy, warning me and letting me go, or he can write up a ticket. The ticket is not unrighteous just not merciful. Also, you might argue that this cop had pulled the same car over seven times and was tired of hearing this drivers apologies. That was the context of the Matt 18 verse not 7 times but 7 times 70
It seems to me that you are saying that God will be merciful to the merciful. Isn’t that meritorious salvation?
 
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bling

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The scripture says that God is righteous in all His ways.

I've wondered at times if God dealt injustice to Job who was perfect and upright in his ways.

But I know there was a reason He did this and it wasn't injustice. One day I will know the reason, but not now.
I might help you there:

Was Job "perfect" like Christ is "perfect", since "perfect" does not have to mean perfect like Christ is perfect?

Was Job better, more mature, and spiritually stronger after Job went through all this than before?

Look what Job said just before God came down, was that Job's hidden feelings about God: "God come down here and let us argue this out because you are wrong???" (my words not his exactly)
 
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Hammster

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According to Matt 18 he is thrown into prison until he pays the last penny. If you want to go into greater detail on what that prison and paying the last penny could be you should start a new thread because that topic will certainly hijack this thread. Give me a heads up so I can participate in your thread.
Since we can’t pay our own debts, I’ll pass.
 
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ZNP

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It seems to me that you are saying that God will be merciful to the merciful. Isn’t that meritorious salvation?
The mercy is not referring to salvation. You are saved by grace, it is not of yourself, it is the gift of God.

Just because I am a born again child of God that is eternally saved doesn't mean that I won't be judged for every word that I have said. The judgment will not be damnation. If you get a speeding ticket and have to pay $75 or whatever it is, that is a judgement, it doesn't mean they give you the death penalty.
 
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Hammster

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If that is the idea the OP is a major blunder, we are not saved based on God's mercy but based on God's righteousness. These are two very different and distinct things.

According to Romans 10 if I call on the Lord and believe in my heart that God has raised Him from the dead I shall be saved.

If God decides He doesn't want to save me then He is unrighteous and since His kingdom is established on righteousness this will be the undoing of God's kingdom.
He saves you because He’s the reason you called upon Him.
 
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Hammster

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You know that doesn't sum it up. I assumed you knew of the other requirements.
I’m going by what you said. Remember this?

“To add to my last post, I've seen this happen several times here on any given subject. A poster will understand something in their mind to mean something, and they assume others follow their thought process, when they do not.

Point being what you think may need a lot more explaining to even get others to understand it.”
 
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The mercy is not referring to salvation. You are saved by grace, it is not of yourself, it is the gift of God.

Just because I am a born again child of God that is eternally saved doesn't mean that I won't be judged for every word that I have said. The judgment will not be damnation. If you get a speeding ticket and have to pay $75 or whatever it is, that is a judgement, it doesn't mean they give you the death penalty.
That’s all well and good, but I don’t see how that relates to the OP.
 
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ZNP

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Since we can’t pay our own debts, I’ll pass.
Perhaps, but you can forgive those who owe you.

This is like the time the Lord cured the paralytic that was lowered down from the roof. The paralytic couldn't stand and walk, but he could forgive those who brought him to Jesus against his will. The Lord didn't tell him to stand and walk, instead He said "your sins are forgiven you". He realized he also could forgive those that had sinned against him and next thing you know he is healed and walking.
 
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