I did something terrible

[ArmyMatt]

I disagree, but whatever.

if we were, you could commune in an Orthodox Church, but you can't. and I could commune in your church, but I can't.

so no, we aren't

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

What is wrong about that? You took communion with fellow Christians. We are all one body.

Please read through the thread or the SOP. How tedious!

 

[~Anastasia~]

We aren't judging whether anyone is in Christ. Only God knows this.

However we DO know what we believe and what defines our beliefs. To whatever degree that is rejected, we are not the same body. Sadly.



We have freedom of some beliefs. But as to what has been handed down from the Apostles, it is not up for personal interpretation. And within believers today, you can find those who disagree on pretty much any point you care to mention. So to greater or lesser degrees, there are separations, sadly.

I suspect everyone would actually agree that a line must be drawn. Do you consider yourselves perfectly one with those who believe Jesus' biological father was an earthly man? Or those who believe Jesus was an angel that God "promoted"? We don't share the same faith, because Jesus as the incarnate Son of God, and God Himself, is central to our faith. The question then is - how much truth do we affirm and how much do we affirm what we know is not true just to let others hold onto what they want to believe?

The communion that brought up the discussion doesn't even require belief that any God exists.

In today's political and secular climate (especially in the US), it is considered a virtue to be accepting of and to affirm the beliefs of others, regardless of what they might be. But that really is not the ethos of Christianity.

We accept and love all persons, certainly. But truth is truth, and it is not a virtue or loving to widen the circle for the sake of "inclusion" to accept anything and everything.

(Forgive the bold type please. I'm not "yelling". It's just that I know I make long posts in hopes of fully explaining, and for the sake of others I'm just trying to highlight the important parts.)

 

[dzheremi]

Why do people come here to have arguments that nobody here is having? So weird. I had that happen recently in my PM box. Everything was fine until I told my friend (who had written to me; I did not write to them) in response to their question of if I could commune in an RC church while waiting to go to the nearest OO church that this is not possible; then it was all about how terrible we are for not being more open...or something... it's like, okay, that's how you feel. On the other hand, these are our principles, so it shouldn't be a surprise that they win out over whatever you, the person who is not a member of the Church to begin with, thinks or feels. If we were not dedicated to them, then I suppose we could do whatever, but that's not reality, and we are not bad people for not living in un-reality with you, no matter how nicely it may be phrased at the outset. (Out of common Christian concern or whatever.)

Anyway, David, I think it's a good thing that you have a sensitivity to this now, knowing that it's not all the same (as you can see from the conversations in this thread or the above short anecdote, the pressure from people outside of the Church is to think that it is) -- but at the same time, realistically, you're not in the Eastern Orthodox Church yet. God willing, some day soon you will be, but until then, I can't imagine the standards being the same, especially with all of the intervening issues you are dealing with that are specific to you (coming from another country where Eastern Orthodoxy is not very present, being of the age to rely on your parents, etc).

It's definitely something to talk about with your priest when you can talk to him. I had the same discussion with my priest as I was preparing to leave New Mexico to come back to California; that's how I learned it was not acceptable in the Coptic Orthodox view that we should go to the nearst EO church, even though that does sometimes happen (as it does back in my home area of Sonoma County, so I was not entirely clear as to whether or not this is okay). No doubt your own priest will be able to sort out details like this for you as well, in addition to giving you guidance regarding things like what you have already done. So I wouldn't beat myself up about it too much, if I were you. Again, it's good that you see there is a problem with this, but it is not an insurmountable one.

 

[renniks]

if we were, you could commune in an Orthodox Church, but you can't. and I could commune in your church, but I can't.

so no, we aren't

We are all one in Christ. It's a shame we are divided by non essential issues.

 

[dzheremi]

It's not your place to decide what is essential and what isn't for a Church you don't belong to, Renniks. That's why the Eastern Orthodox Church and others have canons, and synods of bishops to interpret them. Not everything is up in the air just because some basic level of belief may be held in common between people of different confessions.

And please, there is an entire subforum here known as St. Justin's Corner for people who want to argue with Eastern Orthodox Christians about their religion. This thread is not posted in that particular subforum.

 

[ArmyMatt]

We are all one in Christ. It's a shame we are divided by non essential issues.

we aren't one in Christ. we disagree on essential issues. whether or not baptism saves is an essential issue no matter which side you fall on.

 

[renniks]

It's not your place to decide what is essential and what isn't for a Church you don't belong to, Renniks. That's why the Eastern Orthodox Church and others have canons, and synods of bishops to interpret them. Not everything is up in the air just because some basic level of belief may be held in common between people of different confessions.

And please, there is an entire subforum here known as St. Justin's Corner for people who want to argue with Eastern Orthodox Christians about their religion. This thread is not posted in that particular subforum.

Not arguing, just stating an opinion.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

we aren't one in Christ. we disagree on essential issues. whether or not baptism saves is an essential issue no matter which side you fall on.

That applies with exceptions I hope. I mean it's much more in common between the RCC and the EO than between EO and low church charismatics.

I'm not trivializing the differences between us, but I'm merely emphasizing that we has to be considered closer to one another.

There's still an ocean separating us, I do acknowledge that. The terminology is often somewhat similar, but the content as different as day and night.

What does baptism do to the one being baptized (augustinian vs non augustinian). What is heaven and hell like? How does one recieve grace? The list goes on and on.

That being said I find it strange if we're considered equally heterodox as any pentecostal house church or whatever. It just, doesn't add up in my mind.

Of course, I'm not here to tell you what you believe. That's not my place or anything. I'm just trying to figure out how you view Catholicism in general.
Is it as bad as the presbyterian and the calvinists, or is it closer to Orthodoxy in your and the church's mind?

I register that pat. Barth spend far more time with pope Francis than he does with the rest of the Christian world. Not saying that it has to be a good thing though...

 

[~Anastasia~]

Not arguing, just stating an opinion.

That's the problem - it's an opinion.

The Apostles didn't go around spreading their opinions. They taught and handed down the truth as received from Christ and the Holy Spirit.

People today who wish to disagree and form their own opinions are free to do so. But Christianity isn't based on opinions.

PLEASE before you get into trouble with the mods, pay attention to the rules for congregational forums. It's like a Catholic walking into a Baptist Church and simply announcing they are wrong in his opinion. It's not polite.

We do in fact encourage discussion and allow debate in St. Justin's. If you want to actually discuss.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

It's like a Catholic walking into a Baptist Church and simply announcing they are wrong in his opinion. It's not polite.

Did you spy on me last night??

 

[Barney2.0]

We are all one in Christ. It's a shame we are divided by non essential issues.

There’s only one Christ I’m with you on that one, but the one Christ only founded one Church not 44,000 different denominations each with its own beliefs and he didn’t found an invisible Church (that isn’t really functional or even a Church) either. Either your right or we’re right, we don’t hold the same beliefs in excatly the same way, the problem with your way of thinking ends up leading people to end up saying, “oh we’re all one in Christ with Jehovah’s Witness, Mormons, Mohammadans, and Baha’is they all believe in Christ after all.” And then it further leads people to start saying oh you don’t need “Christ or the Church’s Apostolic teaching to gain salvation you can be a Hindu or a Jew or even an Athiest still get there.” This kind of thinking is what brings a faith down. It’s the same kind of thinking that lead denominations like the Church of England to collapse, and this kind of thinking is also pretty much eating away at the Latin Church. There are members of this forum who believe your dambed to hell unless you keep the Old covenant laws and members of this forum that reject the title of Theotokos for the mother of the incarnate Lord, yes these differences do exist and do matter, although I myself wish they didn’t exist and there are times where I pretend they don’t, but there right in front of us whether we recognize them or not

 

[ArmyMatt]

That applies with exceptions I hope. I mean it's much more in common between the RCC and the EO than between EO and low church charismatics.

I'm not trivializing the differences between us, but I'm merely emphasizing that we has to be considered closer to one another.

There's still an ocean separating us, I do acknowledge that. The terminology is often somewhat similar, but the content as different as day and night.

What does baptism do to the one being baptized (augustinian vs non augustinian). What is heaven and hell like? How does one recieve grace? The list goes on and on.

That being said I find it strange if we're considered equally heterodox as any pentecostal house church or whatever. It just, doesn't add up in my mind.

Of course, I'm not here to tell you what you believe. That's not my place or anything. I'm just trying to figure out how you view Catholicism in general.
Is it as bad as the presbyterian and the calvinists, or is it closer to Orthodoxy in your and the church's mind?

I register that pat. Barth spend far more time with pope Francis than he does with the rest of the Christian world. Not saying that it has to be a good thing though...

personally, I think Rome is far more in common with low church Protestants than with us, because Protestantism has the same approach to Christianity, even though often their conclusions are different.

 

[renniks]

There’s only one Christ I’m with you on that one, but the one Christ only founded one Church not 44,000 different denominations each with its own beliefs and he didn’t found an invisible Church (that isn’t really functional or even a Church) either. Either your right or we’re right, we don’t hold the same beliefs in excatly the same way, the problem with your way of thinking ends up leading people to end up saying, “oh we’re all one in Christ with Jehovah’s Witness, Mormons, Mohammadans, and Baha’is they all believe in Christ after all.” And then it further leads people to start saying oh you don’t need “Christ or the Church’s Apostolic teaching to gain salvation you can be a Hindu or a Jew or even an Athiest still get there.” This kind of thinking is what brings a faith down. It’s the same kind of thinking that lead denominations like the Church of England to collapse, and this kind of thinking is also pretty much eating away at the Latin Church. There are members of this forum who believe your dambed to hell unless you keep the Old covenant laws and members of this forum that reject the title of Theotokos for the mother of the incarnate Lord, yes these differences do exist and do matter, although I myself wish they didn’t exist and there are times where I pretend they don’t, but there right in front of us whether we recognize them or not

I'm talking about main line denominations, that could all recite the Nicene creed with honesty.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

personally, I think Rome is far more in common with low church Protestants than with us, because Protestantism has the same approach to Christianity, even though often their conclusions are different.

Mindblowing, but clarifying. Thanks.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'm talking about main line denominations, that could all recite the Nicene creed with honesty.

that's not true. East and West split over the Creed. and I highly doubt that when an Orthodox Christians says he believes in One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and if a Southern Baptist does, that they would both come to the same understanding.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Mindblowing, but clarifying. Thanks.

mindlblowing in what way?

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

mindlblowing in what way?

Isolation wise and otherwise. Orthodoxy understood in such terms are very small. That's the conclusion I reach. Besides, the gap between the east and the west are much wider than I thought it to be.
I know its deep, but I didnt recognize it was as wide aswell.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Isolation wise and otherwise. Orthodoxy understood in such terms are very small. That's the conclusion I reach. Besides, the gap between the east and the west are much wider than I thought it to be.
I know its deep, but I didnt recognize it was as wide aswell.

well, it's from Met Kallistos Ware. he said that Rome and Protestants are two sides of the same coin. Orthodoxy is a completely different coin.

yes, the gap is very wide.

not sure what you mean about isolation though

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

well, it's from Met Kallistos Ware. he said that Rome and Protestants are two sides of the same coin. Orthodoxy is a completely different coin.

yes, the gap is very wide.

not sure what you mean about isolation though

Numerically speaking that is.