Gay Reparations

[grasping the after wind]

What else is there? Apologies (gesture) and money (reparations). That's all there is.

Every person that has harmed another person should apologize to that person. Don't insult them by offering them money as if they were someone whose forgiveness was financially negotiable.

 

[FireDragon76]

You specifically said Christianity. Not Abrahamic religions. Is Buddhism dangerous because some Buddhist might take offence and do harm to a male prostitute for attempting to join the Sangha? Hinduism has some very nasty things to say about certain classes of people. Is it dangerous because of some of its adherents take intolerance to extremes?

1) I've never heard of a Buddhist attacking a male prostitute. Mostly, gender and sexual variance is tolerated in Buddhist countries like Thailand. There is even a term for this in Thay, the Kathoey.

Kathoey - Wikipedia

2) Not all Hindu's support the caste system in that manner.

 

[dzheremi]

I don't believe in banning speech but I definitely am tired of privileging the attitudes of religiously-motivated bigots.

You literally posted mere minutes ago that you think Christianity should be disallowed from being in the public square.

Do you think that other people in this thread are like goldfish who will forget in mere minutes what you have written?

I'm definitely tired of nonsense like this attempting to pass itself off as compassion. I don't care that you're not a Christian anymore (in the sense that that's between you and God), but you don't do whatever it is you now are any favors by talking out of both sides of your mouth about basic, constitutionally-protected rights.

Maybe in addition to leaving Christianity, you should also leave the western world for any one of the many places where Christianity is truly shut out of public life. Granted, those places also usually aren't too kind to homosexuals, so you're in kind of a bind then, but you know what? Good. People with fascistic, totalizing tendencies (of any religion or none) should not have their attitudes privileged, either.

 

[durangodawood]

Every person that has harmed another person should apologize to that person. Don't insult them by offering them money as if they were someone whose forgiveness was financially negotiable.

This^^^ makes it pretty clear that you havent even understood the case for reparations presented in the article. I dont mean you disagree. I mean you havent even understood what youre disagreeing with.

 

[FireDragon76]

You literally posted mere minutes ago that you think Christianity should be disallowed from being in the public square.

Do you think that other people in this thread are like goldfish who will forget in mere minutes what you have written?

I'm definitely tired of nonsense like this attempting to pass itself off as compassion. I don't care that you're not a Christian anymore (in the sense that that's between you and God), but you don't do whatever it is you now are any favors by talking out of both sides of your mouth about basic, constitutionally-protected rights.

Maybe in addition to leaving Christianity, you should also leave the western world for any one of the many places where Christianity is truly shut out of public life. Granted, those places also usually aren't too kind to homosexuals, so you're in kind of a bind then, but you know what? Good. People with fascistic, totalizing tendencies (of any religion or none) should not have their attitudes privileged, either.

I think Canada is a good alternative, and seems to uphold the sort of values I believe in.

 

[Silmarien]

I think it should be pointed out here, from a straight man (me) if that makes any difference, that a lot of straight men can very well recognize that other men are good looking (I don't know that 'physically attractive' really makes sense in this context, since a straight man wouldn't be physically attracted to them to begin with, but could still recognize that they're good looking), but probably don't like to do so because it puts their own physical shortcomings front and center in their own minds. So it's not so much homophobia in those cases as a certain kind of self-loathing that expresses itself as hate and unacknowledged jealousy. Kind of like a weird version of the entitlement of the 'incel' community, but with the disgust and anger turned against fellow men rather than women. "That guy gets all the women" is Not-Gay™ for "That man is very attractive, and I am not, and that makes me feel bad, so ewww, get out of my brain, 'gay' thought. I hate that guy, and the stupid women who choose him instead of me because he's clearly better looking than I am."

We'll never tell you that, though. We can't even admit it to ourselves, but it's not because we're secretly gay (though it certainly could be in some cases; that does still happen); it's because so many are inadequate when measured against whoever they are measuring themselves against, and it's easier to deny that there's anything good about the guy than it would be to put down the fork and go to the gym, or turn off the video game and go get a job, etc.

Oh, I wouldn't say that it's because anyone is secretly gay. Quite the opposite, really, since at most it would mean that someone is slightly bisexual. It's a tricky subject, though, since as I pointed out above, "slightly bisexual" is really the norm for straight women, and I've never seen people seriously question their sexuality over it. My impression of men has been that they can feel threatened by the possibility that they're not completely and utterly straight, though you make a good point. It could be more complicated than that.

It's easy to understand why people would demonize gays if you thought homosexuality was wrong, though. I just thinks that's evidence of how dangerous Christianity can be, and why it needs to be taken out of the public square. If our yardstick for justice is God's will, that's a dangerously arbitrary standard subject to the vagueries of interpretation.

I'm going to have to go with fake-Voltaire (Evelyn Beatrice Hall) here in saying, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." We don't censure unpopular views in a liberal democracy. That gets super dangerous.

 

[FireDragon76]

Every person that has harmed another person should apologize to that person.

Indeed... that's all I'm really talking about. Just basic respect and human decency.

 

[FireDragon76]

Oh, I wouldn't say that it's because anyone is secretly gay. Quite the opposite, really, since at most it would mean that someone is slightly bisexual. It's a tricky subject, though, since as I pointed out above, "slightly bisexual" is really the norm for straight women, and I've never seen people seriously question their sexuality over it. My impression of men has been that they can feel threatened by the possibility that they're not completely and utterly straight, though you make a good point. It could be more complicated than that.



I'm going to have to go with fake-Voltaire (Evelyn Beatrice Hall) here in saying, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." We don't censure unpopular views in a liberal democracy. That gets super dangerous.

Maybe you refuse to see how Christianity is privileged in the US, but I don't. That's what I object to. Why should a religion that preaches contempt for people I love and care about be something I should be OK with, especially when it has a position of power in this society?

 

[grasping the after wind]

1) I've never heard of a Buddhist attacking a male prostitute. Mostly, gender and sexual variance is tolerated in Buddhist countries like Thailand. There is even a term for this in Thay, the Kathoey.

2) Not all Hindu's support the caste in the traditional form.

IF Christianity is dangerous because it has rules about behavior that people might use as an excuse to harm others, then Buddhism , Hinduism etc., all having rules about behavior, also might be used as an excuse to harm others and so are similarly dangerous. Unless you only care about harm coming to homosexuals, pointing out that homosexuals are more likely to be free from harm by misuse of the rules of those other religions than Christianity is no different than pointing out that untouchables are more likely to be free from harm in Christianity than in Hinduism.

 

[dzheremi]

I think Canada is a good alternative, and seems to uphold the sort of values I believe in.

Godspeed...er...Flying Spaghetti Monster speed to you, then. I've never been myself, but I know several Canadians and if they're any indication of how the country is overall, then it seems like a lovely place.

 

[Silmarien]

I can understand why a woman would be sexually attracted to a woman. I don't get why they would be sexually attracted to a man. I think there are people that don't like the word homophobia because they feel it is too often used inappropriately and used as a bludgeon to shame people into compliance with a political position.

Well, admittedly sometimes it can be. Just like Islamophobia.

I don't know what other word to use when discussing actual homophobia, though. "Social rejection of people perceived to be homosexual" would be a mouthful.

 

[Elisha's Bear]

Every person that has harmed another person should apologize to that person. Don't insult them by offering them money as if they were someone whose forgiveness was financially negotiable.

This thread is not about offering money. It's about demanding it. Apologies and reparations (if applicable) are required from offenders by Divine mandate.

 

[FireDragon76]

Well, admittedly sometimes it can be. Just like Islamophobia.

I don't know what other word to use when discussing actual homophobia, though. "Social rejection of people perceived to be homosexual" would be a mouthful.

Whether it's religiously motivated or not, homophobia is still homophobia. "God told me to do so" is NOT a good enough rational for otherwise unethical behavior.

 

[durangodawood]

This thread is not about offering money. It's about demanding it. Apologies and reparations (if applicable) are required from offenders by Divine mandate.

You really need to address a specific reparations proposal.

Until you do, youre just arguing against yourself.

You could pick the one linked in the OP?

 

[grasping the after wind]

Maybe you refuse to see how Christianity is privileged in the US, but I don't. That's what I object to. Why should a religion that preaches contempt for people I love and care about be something I should be OK with, especially when it has a position of power in this society?

Christianity does not preach contempt for anyone. There are false preachers out there but they are false preachers they are not following in the footsteps of Christ. "Love your neighbor" and having contempt are contradictions. I don't see Christianity as having privilege. You will have to enumerate for me those privileges that Christianity holds in the United States that other religions do not.

 

[FireDragon76]

IF Christianity is dangerous because it has rules about behavior that people might use as an excuse to harm others, then Buddhism , Hinduism etc., all having rules about behavior, also might be used as an excuse to harm others and so are similarly dangerous. Unless you only care about harm coming to homosexuals, pointing out that homosexuals are more likely to be free from harm by misuse of the rules of those other religions than Christianity is no different than pointing out that untouchables are more likely to be free from harm in Christianity than in Hinduism.

So you believe policies that stigmatize gays and declare them socially unacceptable are a misuse of Christian teaching? Why do so many Christian groups fight to prohibit laws against anti-gay discrimination in employment and housing?

 

[Silmarien]

Maybe you refuse to see how Christianity is privileged in the US, but I don't. That's what I object to. Why should a religion that preaches contempt for people I love and care about be something I should be OK with, especially when it has a position of power in this society?

You don't have to be okay with Christianity if you don't want to be. If you're going to advocate for throwing conservative Christians out of the public sphere, however, you're moving into dangerous territory. That's how totalitarian governments work.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Whether it's religiously motivated or not, homophobia is still homophobia. "God told me to do so" is NOT a good enough rational for otherwise unethical behavior.

Especially when God did no such thing.

 

[grasping the after wind]

So you believe policies that stigmatize gays and declare them socially unacceptable are a misuse of Christian teaching?

Absolutely.

 

[Daniel C]

Outside of Abrahamic religions, I can't think of many that specifically condemn homosexuality. . . .

I would take that as a compliment being a Christian.

Whilst all the false religions of the world focus on this fleeting physical life and lusts of the flesh,giving their adherents no moral code or a corrupted one at best-The Christian God says that the model for humankind is one man and one woman so that we may replenish his creation and do his will. Yes,homosexuality is a shameful sinful state to be in and the result of the sodomites sinful path towards Reprobation,rejected by the creator.