Gay Reparations

[grasping the after wind]

I think it has to do with honoring historical memory. Of course Alan Turing himself doesn't directly benefit from an apology, but his memory does, and so do the gay people who live with the stigma of that disrespect.

I advise not living with a stigma. There is no need to inflict that upon oneself. I don't see how an apology from the perpetrator would honor Turing's memory but I am not opposed to it even though it does Turing no good. I would oppose anyone telling me to apologize for what happened to Turing as I never harmed a hair on his head.

 

[FireDragon76]

I advise not living with a stigma. There is no need to inflict that upon oneself. I don't see how an apology from the perpetrator would honor Turing's memory but I am not opposed to it even though it does Turing no good. I would oppose anyone telling me to apologize for what happened to Turing as I never harmed a hair on his head.

The British government has already done so:

UK issues posthumous pardons for thousands of gay men

 

[grasping the after wind]

He killed and ate people out of fear. The fear that people would leave him. He also did not respect other peoples bodily autonomy, that's a kind of fear... the fear of vulnerability.

Homophobia is still rooted in fear. The fear of not pleasing authority figures or the fear of the Other.

Fear can be a motivator but it is not the only motivator for people that treat homosexuals badly. Being a homophobe is similar to being a francophobe in that there are those that will just despise people for being what they are whether they fear them or not. The bully does not pick on the kid he fears but on the one he thinks will fear him.

 

[FireDragon76]

Fear can be a motivator but it is not the only motivator for people that treat homosexuals badly. Being a homophobe is similar to being a francophobe in that there are those that will just despise people for being what they are whether they fear them or not. The bully does not pick on the kid he fears but on the one he thinks will fear him.

Bullies and abusers don't operate from strength, anyone who has studied psychology would know that.

Homophobia is based on the perceived existential threat of gays and lesbians.

 

[grasping the after wind]

The British government has already done so:

UK issues posthumous pardons for thousands of gay men

I guess that solves the problem then.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Bullies and abusers don't operate from strength, anyone who has studied psychology would know that.

Homophobia is based on the perceived existential threat of gays and lesbians.

Homophobia i.e., fear of homosexuals is indeed based upon what you say it is. The thing is that I do not see the evidence that all homophobes i.e. people that hate gays are afflicted with Homophobia. Human beings are much more complex than pop psychology gives them credit for. They do things for many reasons fear is among them but it is not exclusive in motivating bad behavior. There are people that simply derive pleasure from harming others or seeing harm come to others. Schadenfreude would not be a concept if it were not so. Ascribing all bad behavior to fear is just too simplistic.

 

[dzheremi]

That's the sort of world I grew up in. Best buddies with a guy friend and a little odd? You must be gay, etc.

Welcome to life. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I think it has to do with honoring historical memory.

Oh, bull. If it were really about that, you could do it even better with a plaque or a statue somewhere; y'know, something that would stand for a long time and you could take generations of school kids to look at as part of teaching them why what earlier generations went through was wrong. Instead, this is about getting money for doing nothing but being gay at a time when being gay in the western world may well put you at an economic advantage, as per the reporting I linked to in my previous post.

Of course Alan Turing himself doesn't directly benefit from an apology, but his memory does, and so do the gay people who live with the stigma of that disrespect.

So it isn't about discrimination against gay people today, but about somehow benefiting his memory? If that's where we're at the in the western world, we must be doing pretty good by gay people in the here and now. Isn't that in itself a better way to honor Turing's memory than giving people money for being gay?

If anyone behind this cared so much about the treatment of gay people, they'd be trying to get guarantees of their safety and rights from countries that still oppress them in the legal code, like most of the Middle Eastern theocracies. Yet they aren't doing that. They've instead jumped to reparations.

Hmm.

 

[FireDragon76]

Fear can be a motivator but it is not the only motivator for people that treat homosexuals badly. Being a homophobe is similar to being a francophobe in that there are those that will just despise people for being what they are whether they fear them or not. The bully does not pick on the kid he fears but on the one he thinks will fear him.

As strange as it may sound, Dahmer did not do what he did out of purely evil desires. He feared being alone, being unloved, and he had an unrealistic, idealized view of love in his head that no human could fulfill. Combine that with being a gay man at a time when it still wasn't safe to be openly gay in many parts of the country, and that goes a long way towards explain Dahmer's behavior other than to think of him as a monster.

And FWIW, Dahmer did come in time to realize the gravity of what he had done, and he sought baptism in the Church of Christ.

 

[grasping the after wind]

As strange as it may sound, Dahmer did not do what he did out of purely evil desires. He feared being alone, being unloved, and he had an unrealistic, idealized view of love in his head that no human could fulfill. Combine that with being a gay man at a time when it still wasn't safe to be openly gay in many parts of the country, and that goes a long way towards explain Dahmer's behavior other than to think of him as a monster.

And FWIW, Dahmer did come in time to realize the gravity of what he had done, and he sought baptism in the Church of Christ.

I wasn't aware of the particulars of Dahmer's life such as that he was gay. I only knew he killed a and ate people. You say he was motivated by fear . It may be so but it was not fear of the people he killed and ate. People that hate homosexuals may not do so only because they fear homosexuals. I understand fear as I have experienced fear in my life but I do not understand hate. At least not what I consider to be actual hate in which one desires harm to come to others.

 

[Silmarien]

Please pay attention to my point and don't ascribe things to me that are not there. If you have any desire at all to know what I think re read my post and get out of it what I actually wrote. There is nothing in it about homophobia at all never mind a claim that there is no problem with homophobia or comparing it to cannibalism. The only point I was making seems to have eluded you i.e. FEAR IS NOT THE ONLY MOTIVATOR FOR PEOPLE TO TREAT OTHERS BADLY. Sorry for shouting but I want to make my point clear.

I don't think so many straight men would have such difficulty even admitting that other men were physically attractive if there wasn't a deep-set existential horror associated with same-sex attraction, so I suspect fear is a real motivator here.

But again, I don't see why it matters if the root of homophobia is literal fear or something else. What I think is important is that people who think homosexual activity is a sin actually take homophobia seriously.

 

[Daniel C]

As strange as it may sound, Dahmer did not do what he did out of purely evil desires. . . .

YEAH RIGHT!

A serial killer who stored the corpses of the people he killed and then ate the dead bodies. You must be crazy as he is if think that is not pure evil at work.

Dahmer is a prime example of the reprobate/sodomite mind.

 

[grasping the after wind]

I don't think so many straight men would have such difficulty even admitting that other men were physically attractive if there wasn't a deep-set existential horror associated with same-sex attraction, so I suspect fear is a real motivator here.

But again, I don't see why it matters if the root of homophobia is literal fear or something else. What I think is important is that people who think homosexual activity is a sin actually take homophobia seriously.

If one is going to attempt to solve a problem one must not discount any aspect of why that problem exists. If there is more than one motivating factor one must deal with all of them and not just the one. That is why I think it is important. Fear is a motivating factor but if we are incorrect in saying it is the only motivating factor we will have a much harder time making things better. I am a straight mean that does not find other men physically attractive. I have no fear of admitting that there are physically attractive men. I just am not attracted to them myself. I don't get what gay men and straight women seem to be attracted by but obviously there is something there. I expect gay men and straight women don't get what I am attracted by either.

 

[grasping the after wind]

YEAH RIGHT!

A serial killer who stored the corpses of the people he killed and then ate the dead bodies. You must be crazy as he is if think that is not pure evil at work.

Dahmer is a prime example of the reprobate/sodomite mind.

I was unaware that murder and cannibalism had anything to do with sodomy.

 

[dzheremi]

I don't think so many straight men would have such difficulty even admitting that other men were physically attractive if there wasn't a deep-set existential horror associated with same-sex attraction, so I suspect fear is a real motivator here.

I think it should be pointed out here, from a straight man (me) if that makes any difference, that a lot of straight men can very well recognize that other men are good looking (I don't know that 'physically attractive' really makes sense in this context, since a straight man wouldn't be physically attracted to them to begin with, but could still recognize that they're good looking), but probably don't like to do so because it puts their own physical shortcomings front and center in their own minds. So it's not so much homophobia in those cases as a certain kind of self-loathing that expresses itself as hate and unacknowledged jealousy. Kind of like a weird version of the entitlement of the 'incel' community, but with the disgust and anger turned against fellow men rather than women. "That guy gets all the women" is Not-Gay™ for "That man is very attractive, and I am not, and that makes me feel bad, so ewww, get out of my brain, 'gay' thought. I hate that guy, and the stupid women who choose him instead of me because he's clearly better looking than I am."

We'll never tell you that, though. We can't even admit it to ourselves, but it's not because we're secretly gay (though it certainly could be in some cases; that does still happen); it's because so many are inadequate when measured against whoever they are measuring themselves against, and it's easier to deny that there's anything good about the guy than it would be to put down the fork and go to the gym, or turn off the video game and go get a job, etc.

 

[FireDragon76]

I was unaware that murder and cannibalism had anything to do with sodomy.

Some peoples' discourse about homosexuality implies that gays are child molesters so eating people isn't far from that, either.... I guess.

Paraphilias have to do with broken love maps. Dahmer eating people was a way to try to immortalize them symbolically, however gruesome that might appear to be.

 

[dzheremi]

Can we move the Dahmer discussion somewhere else? Gay people aren't cannibals just because one guy who was gay and couldn't deal with it ate people. I don't really see what his situation has to do with whether or not it is a good idea that gay people get reparations.

 

[Daniel C]

I was unaware that murder and cannibalism had anything to do with sodomy.

Dahmer was a homosexual and all his gay ''lovers'' were the ones he killed,stored and ate.

 

[FireDragon76]

Dahmer was a homosexual and all his gay ''lovers'' were the ones he killed,stored and ate.

Not typical gay behavior anymore than Ted Bundy was a typical heterosexual.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't think so many straight men would have such difficulty even admitting that other men were physically attractive if there wasn't a deep-set existential horror associated with same-sex attraction, so I suspect fear is a real motivator here.

But again, I don't see why it matters if the root of homophobia is literal fear or something else. What I think is important is that people who think homosexual activity is a sin actually take homophobia seriously.

It's easy to understand why people would demonize gays if you thought homosexuality was wrong, though. I just thinks that's evidence of how dangerous Christianity can be, and why it needs to be taken out of the public square. If our yardstick for justice is God's will, that's a dangerously arbitrary standard subject to the vagueries of interpretation.

 

[AvisG]

There is and always will be fear and suspicion of "the other," the dreaded "those who aren't like us." This is why scapegoating is so effective. Who "the other" is will vary from culture to culture and time period to time period - Jews, Blacks, homosexuals, whatever. Christians are well on their way to becoming "the other" in the America of 2019.

Gays are and always have been a distinct minority. They engage in sexual activity that many non-gays find repulsive. Many of them exhibit characteristics and behaviors that are inconsistent with their gender and that make them easily identifiable. It's quite easy for any group to target them as "the other." This may be done at the societal level (e.g., the Nazis) or the individual level (e.g., redneck bullies).

On the other hand, across all time periods and virtually all cultures, homosexuality has been condemned as a perversion. This abhorrence may well be ingrained at the genetic level. Until intense political lobbying resulted in a reclassification, homosexuality was classified as a mental disorder as recently as 1973. Homosexuality was a serious criminal offense in virtually every state and country. Can this all reasonably be attributed to "homophobia," to irrational fear and loathing as though everyone in the world prior to roughly 1975 was some sort of knuckle-dragging cave man? I don't think so.

I would condemn any and all harassment or persecution of gays, which certainly has occurred just as it has occurred with other groups stigmatized as "the other." On the other hand, I am not prepared to admit that gays and gay relationships are "just like" heterosexuals and heterosexual relationships in all respects. This is what the gays demand, right now, no questions allowed.

Considering the historical classification of homosexuality as a perversion, a mental disorder and a crime, I think it is fair to say "A better and more long-term understanding of the nature of homosexuality, the nature and effects of homosexual relationships, the mental and physical health risks associated with homosexuality, the effects on children reared in homosexual households, and the effect of the acceptance of homosexuality on society as whole is needed before we decide homosexuals and homosexual relationships are 'just like' heterosexuals and their relationships."

I don't believe this can reasonably be characterized as "homophobia." A phobia is an irrational fear. I would hardly call the concerns about homosexuality - and I haven't even mentioned the religious concerns - irrational. The religious concerns likewise aren't irrational. If I strongly believed the Bible was the Word of God, and that Word condemned homosexuality as an abomination, then my vehement opposition to homosexuality would not be homophobia - it would simply be a religious conviction.