Nearly 40% of 2019 farm income will come from federal aid and insurance

Ana the Ist

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We'll just stick with your one legitimate argument.

There could be private fire departments. In fact, that's how fire departments began. In this country they were started by insurance companies to protect the properties they insured. And only the properties they insured. That was a selling point - would you buy your insurance from the company that did or didn't have a fire brigade? When/why did we let the government take control of that - when people could be, and at one time were, making money off it?

Don't confuse a privatized public good with socialism.

We have private prisons now. Like firefighters, they perform a service....but it's not really one you can opt out of because it's a part of the public good. Governments have to do something with prisoners.

I guess you could argue that a government doesn't have to stop fires....I'm just not sure what that argument looks like.

You sound like you think that "anything the government spends money on = socialism"
...which isn't correct.
 
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JackRT

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When/why did we let the government take control of that - when people could be, and at one time were, making money off it?

Over the years I have read a number of stories (thankfully infrequent) where a fire brigade has responded to protect a property that was threatened by a fire in an adjacent property. They stood there and left that adjacent property burn to the ground. This is free enterprise capitalism carried to its logical extreme. This is why governments have stepped up to protect all citizens. This is also why we have police forces, ambulance services, public hospitals even our military. Dang them socialists anyhow.
 
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Ricky M

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Over the years I have read a number of stories (thankfully infrequent) where a fire brigade has responded to protect a property that was threatened by a fire in an adjacent property. They stood there and left that adjacent property burn to the ground. This is free enterprise capitalism carried to its logical extreme. This is why governments have stepped up to protect all citizens. This is also why we have police forces, ambulance services, public hospitals even our military. Dang them socialists anyhow.
Exactly. Economies of scale, if nothing else. And honestly I'd rather the fire brigade go put out my neighbor's house, than see if they can put mine out when it spreads. It's a shared hazard among all that requires a unified response.

In the same way, I'd rather my neighbor be able to go to the doctor and have his illness treated, than for me to go to mine when I catch it from them.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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When/why did we let the government take control of that - when people could be, and at one time were, making money off it?

Because these fire departments are so big now that the only way in which to support them would be from tax monies.
M-Bob
 
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Go Braves

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It was so nice of Trump to screw his biggest supporters.

Every farmer I know cant wait to vote him out!

Same. My grandparents live in farming country, we spend a lot of time there. They've been hurt awful on account of Donald. Just the instability and anxiety caused by his stupid trade war.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Because these fire departments are so big now that the only way in which to support them would be from tax monies.
M-Bob

It's more like the fact that it doesn't make sense to privatize them. Fighting fires requires specific tools and skills...and people willing to train for those typically require money. It's hard to imagine a private business model that would work for this....most places simply wouldn't have firefighters.

The fact that a public need was once fulfilled by a private business doesn't make it socialist. Another poster pointed out the business conflict in private firefighting. There was a similar problem before the FBI was created. We used to hire private detectives to investigate cross state crimes and major crimes/criminal organizations. There's an inherent problem with that though...since a detective agency's detectives aren't necessarily loyal to the interests of the USA.

Does that mean the FBI is somehow a socialist agency because it's function was once performed by a private business? Of course not.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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And you atheists claim we Christians are the haters.

Don't let that sour you on the rest of us Atheists, we can be pals lol
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Why? Funding the local homeless is not the same as sending aid to Israel. They're completely different circumstances and done for completely different reasons.

I don't recall suggesting that it was the same. I said that if one's objection is to the concept of merely taking money from one person and having it end up with someone else who didn't physically earn it, then a person who opposes one (if they're consistent) should oppose the other, because both scenarios would fit that vague description.

Now, if a person is of the position that "we should use public funds to address issues at home not sending it abroad", then the stance you describe would be completely consistent.


I suspect the reason why these vague descriptions are often times used seems to be because people want to justify their position on very specific things, by making it sound like "it's nothing personal against anyone else, it's just part of a broader personal philosophy I have".

That presents a double-standard when they espouse positions on other matters that are in direct opposition to that supposed broader philosophy they cited as their justification for a position on the other subject.

It sounds a lot more socially acceptable for a person to say "I just don't like the idea of my money being given to someone who didn't physically earn it", than for that person to say "I think the inner-city liberals are lazy and don't deserve a dime of my money".

They should just suck it up and say the latter (even if it's unpopular) if that's how they truly feel, because at least then, it's not inconsistent when they advocate for redistribution in other areas.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Wow....and we finally get down to the bottom of this bad argument. The government doesn't need corn? Of course it does....

There's very few things that are absolutely essential for the continuation of a society and a food source is one of them. It is entirely necessary to ensure that we do not become entirely, or even overly dependent upon foreign food sources....even if it means propping up farms and farmers.

If we became dependent upon foreign food sources for too large a share of the market, what would happen if those foreign sources failed? What would happen if they became hostile and decided to stop selling us food? That would basically bring total chaos and grind our nation to a halt.

Can we continue on without free healthcare, free education, houses for the homeless, pennies for the poor, and every other bad comparison made in this thread??? Absolutely.

Can we continue on without food? No.

The glaring issue with your rebuttal is you seem to be making "corn" synonymous with the overall idea of "food"

I specifically said corn (which is one of the higher subsidized crops).

And to go even further, it's not as if corn would completely cease to exist in the market if the subsidy was removed. It just means that production amounts would taper down to meet the actual market demand, meaning that farmers could free up their land for other crops (that do have a high enough demand that they don't need to be subsidized), and the portions of their land still dedicated to corn would result in a higher income per acre as without the over-inflated supply, it could fetch a higher price once it hits the market for the people who would still undoubtedly buy it.

It's important to point out that the whole reason corn had to start being subsidized in the first place was precisely because it was a particular food source that the market decided they could do with less of in a time when the weekly food budgets were a little tighter. As there are options that were the same price, that are much healthier and give more bang for the buck. (and that's still true today)

It should be quite telling that the government has to spend over $10 billion a year in subsides, just to make it so that corn can be sold for a price that's as low as other healthier veggies that don't need to be subsidized.

No only that, but a negative side effect of the over-production of corn has been that corn and corn-byproducts have been used to make other food products more unhealthy just so they could find something to do with it.

A large portion of the corn goes to making artificial sweeteners that are added to products in amounts that are much higher than necessary, and force-feeding it to livestock who shouldn't be eating corn in the first place (thus making a less healthy meat product).


If it were a case where no vegetable at all would be affordable or available without a subsidy intervention, then that would be a different scenario.

It should also be noted that an indirect effect of subsidizing corn is that it causes an increase in the price of other vegetables that actually do have a higher demand. When farmers are encouraged to uses a huge portion of their land for corn, that means less land for other things. When there's less land for other veggies, that means lower supply which, in turn, means higher prices.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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This has been going on for how long.
Guess -- over 60 years.

And also went on under Obama
so it must be good.

Keep America Great

M-Bob

Something going on for 60 years doesn't mean it's a good thing...it could just mean that elected leaders tend to be terrible when it comes to inaction on things that could create meaningful change lol.

I listed out several reason for why corn subsidies are a bad idea, I went into much more detail in my post above, but there are some real problems with encouraging farmers to use a disproportionate amount of their available land for the over-production of a crop for which there's a lower direct-consumption demand that doesn't offer a whole lot in terms of nutrition.

This article makes a lot of those same points
https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...642a3c-9434-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html

When there's less land to be used for other healthier vegetables that actually do have a larger public demand, it shrinks the supply of those vegetables thus raising their prices. Having Broccoli, Carrots, and Spinach being more expensive in order to make corn & soy artificially cheaper isn't doing any favors (outside of merely keeping soy & corn farmers employed)

Another major issue is what's done with the corn surplus in the forms of artificial sweeteners and forcefeeding it to livestock (who should be eating grass). They're dumping corn syrup in everything just because they need to find something do with it.

The original subsidy model introduced in the 30's (that was partially to help stave off the harsher effects of the tough economic environment of the time) was far different than the iteration that was introduced in the 1980's.

Basically, it took much of the risk out of farming corn & soy, but not out of the other, healthier, fruits & veggies.

Since other major corporations are guaranteed buyers of the product (companies that produce things that heavily rely on soy & corn syrup), the government is willing to pay a huge amount of the farmer's insurance premiums. So it became a form of risk management for farmers.

If you look at the article I linked, in terms of direct purchase price for the crop itself for direct consumers (IE: people who just want to buy some corn to eat as a side dish), the subsidies only drop the price by around 5% for us - so we pay 0.95 for corn instead of 1.00.

The major benefactors of that are the corporate purchasers of corn who want to use it for things like high fructose corn syrup.

So it's not a case where these subsidies are hugely benefiting American food consumers, it's benefiting companies like Nabisco when they want to get their raw materials cheaper when they're producing Teddy Grahams.

Or another way of looking at it, our farm subsidy model more closely resembles corporate welfare to companies like Nabisco and Kellogg than it does actually creating lower food prices for American consumers buying produce at the grocery store.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Something going on for 60 years doesn't mean it's a good thing...it could just mean that elected leaders tend to be terrible when it comes to inaction on things that could create meaningful change lol.

I listed out several reason for why corn subsidies are a bad idea, I went into much more detail in my post above, but there are some real problems with encouraging farmers to use a disproportionate amount of their available land for the over-production of a crop for which there's a lower direct-consumption demand that doesn't offer a whole lot in terms of nutrition.

This article makes a lot of those same points
https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...642a3c-9434-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html

When there's less land to be used for other healthier vegetables that actually do have a larger public demand, it shrinks the supply of those vegetables thus raising their prices. Having Broccoli, Carrots, and Spinach being more expensive in order to make corn & soy artificially cheaper isn't doing any favors (outside of merely keeping soy & corn farmers employed)

Another major issue is what's done with the corn surplus in the forms of artificial sweeteners and forcefeeding it to livestock (who should be eating grass). They're dumping corn syrup in everything just because they need to find something do with it.

The original subsidy model introduced in the 30's (that was partially to help stave off the harsher effects of the tough economic environment of the time) was far different than the iteration that was introduced in the 1980's.

Basically, it took much of the risk out of farming corn & soy, but not out of the other, healthier, fruits & veggies.

Since other major corporations are guaranteed buyers of the product (companies that produce things that heavily rely on soy & corn syrup), the government is willing to pay a huge amount of the farmer's insurance premiums. So it became a form of risk management for farmers.

If you look at the article I linked, in terms of direct purchase price for the crop itself for direct consumers (IE: people who just want to buy some corn to eat as a side dish), the subsidies only drop the price by around 5% for us - so we pay 0.95 for corn instead of 1.00.

The major benefactors of that are the corporate purchasers of corn who want to use it for things like high fructose corn syrup.

So it's not a case where these subsidies are hugely benefiting American food consumers, it's benefiting companies like Nabisco when they want to get their raw materials cheaper when they're producing Teddy Grahams.

Or another way of looking at it, our farm subsidy model more closely resembles corporate welfare to companies like Nabisco and Kellogg than it does actually creating lower food prices for American consumers buying produce at the grocery store.

Do you wish for a lot of the smaller farmers to go out of business and then have the big boys take over most all of the farm lands?

Seems that's what would happen?

Do you think working and owning a farm is an easy way to make a living?

M-Bob
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Do you wish for a lot of the smaller farmers to go out of business and then have the big boys take over most all of the farm lands?

Seems that's what would happen?

Do you think working and owning a farm is an easy way to make a living?

M-Bob

Not at all...
(nor is any of my content aimed at disparaging the profession of farming)

But if the government is going to subsidize certain crops via methodologies like guaranteed insurance, they should be doing that for things like fruits & healthier veggies and not corn & soy.


The scenario you're worried about "the big boys dictating what happens" is already happening precisely as a result of the 1980's iteration of the farm bill/subsidies that's been in for the last 30-40 years. Farmers (large or small) don't get the subsidy and generous amount of guaranteed insurance for anything but corn & soy, and that driven by the fact that the 5-6 companies that control the grain trade (and act as a sort of clearing house/middleman for getting the raw materials over to companies like Nabisco and other producers of junk food and vegetable oil) pushed for it in the 80's.

The original farm subsidy bill in the 30's wasn't subject to the same sort of outside meddling, and as a result, crop diversity on farms wasn't impacted a whole a lot as a result.

The 80's iteration of crop insurance subsidies were basically written to ensure cheap raw materials to companies that wanted to make junk food, and more recently, companies involved in the ethanol-fuel industries.

Per the article:
From the 1930s to 1980, subsidies alone weren’t substantial enough to significantly change the mix of crops on farms, according to Vincent Smith, professor of economics at Montana State University and a visiting scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. “In 1980, we introduced crop insurance subsidies of substance that began to change the ways in which farmers manage risk, and to discourage diversification,” he says. And then we increased them until they became very substantial, and farmers, at least to some extent, farmed to the bill the way teachers teach to a test.

Now, half of all available US farmland is used for corn & soy.

It only defines corn and soy as "stable crops" and literally every other fruit & vegetable is designated as a "specialty crop". This was at the behest of the "big boys" you referred to earlier.


Thus the reason I said the corn subsidy needs to go away. If the US government really wanted to subsidize farmers in the name of "keeping America fed", they'd be offering them the same sweet deal on a diverse group of crops (broccoli, carrots, spinach, kale, tomatoes, etc...) instead of a crop, who's demand is low, nutrition value is relatively poor, and only a small percentage of which goes to direct consumption in its natural form (IE: buying some corn from the produce section)

Why are we using 50% of the nation's farmland for growing a crop that only 10% of is actually ingested directly, and only makes up 6% of the average American's food consumption (when speaking of ingesting in it's regular form, not via vegetable oils or corn syrup in processed foods)?

If the goal of the subsidy is supposed to be providing food via corn, then the subsidy should only be extended to the percentage of corn that's being used for direct consumption. Let the big processed food companies and ethanol companies pay full price for the corn they're using. Giving an energy company or Nabisco a "sweet deal" on their raw material prices so they can turn a bigger profit shouldn't be the application of a program that was sold to the American public as a strategy for "Keeping America Fed"
 
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Moral Orel

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Don't confuse a privatized public good with socialism.

We have private prisons now. Like firefighters, they perform a service....but it's not really one you can opt out of because it's a part of the public good. Governments have to do something with prisoners.

I guess you could argue that a government doesn't have to stop fires....I'm just not sure what that argument looks like.
So something is only socialist if the government controls something that isn't part of the public good? That sounds entirely subjective.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I don't recall suggesting that it was the same. I said that if one's objection is to the concept of merely taking money from one person and having it end up with someone else who didn't physically earn it, then a person who opposes one (if they're consistent) should oppose the other, because both scenarios would fit that vague description.

Ok, so apparently you understand that these are different circumstances....great.

If I go walking down the street and someone approaches and asks "will you donate to my charity?"

And I say "Sorry, I don't just hand out money to people who don't earn it." and I walk on by...

Then later, my sister asks me for some help paying an unexpected medical bill and I send her some money to help....am I suddenly a hypocrite?

Anyone who has an ounce of common sense should be able to see that my statement to the person who was soliciting charity was meant for those circumstances and not literally every possible circumstance where I might exchange money with someone.

That would be stupid.
 
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Ana the Ist

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So something is only socialist if the government controls something that isn't part of the public good? That sounds entirely subjective.

Is it?

I get that some people probably think that a nation could exist without any police, military, or foreign allys....but I don't see how.
 
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Ana the Ist

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The glaring issue with your rebuttal is you seem to be making "corn" synonymous with the overall idea of "food"

High fructose corn syrup goes into a lot of food.

Do you understand the point that agriculture cannot ever be a completely free market? Do you understand that it's always necessary to protect it from completely free markets?
 
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