Question for rapture people

[CharismaticLady]

The implication is that them who are not looking for the rapture, will not be taken.

That is not true. Jesus knows who are His own.

 

[Douggg]

I totally disagree. That is the second coming. Look at Revelation 7. "those who come out of the Great Tribulation". Those are Christians who went into the GT as nominal Christians and had to give their lives as martyrs to stand up and be counted.

What is the Second coming?

Them in Revelation 7 are them who die during the great tribulation. Their souls are in heaven.

If you want to say that that they include Christians who refused to look for Jesus to be taken in the rapture, and end up going into the great tribulation and are martyred, I can agree to that. But that great multitude includes them who become Christians after the rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonians4:13-18 will have taken place, but end up being martyred.

You can not look for Jesus coming for the rapture - until after the great tribulation begins if you want, but I think it is a big mistake.

 

[Douggg]

That is not true. Jesus knows who are His own.

You make the decision whether you will be taken or not, according to what you believe and confess with your mouth. You cannot discourage others from looking for Jesus to rapture them, at anytime, and expect to be taken.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Douggg said: ↑
The implication is that them who are not looking for the rapture, will not be taken.

Sounds like the makings of a good thread.............
Fulfilled in the 1st century up to 70AD..........

"WHERE THE BODY is, there the EAGLES be gathered" Matt 24 Luke 17-- and Revelation

Matthew 24:
28 for wherever the corpse<4430> may be, there shall the eagles/vultures be gathered together<4863>.

40“Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
41 “Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

Luke 17
34 ‘I say to you, In that night, there shall be two men on one couch, the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left;
35 two women shall be grinding at the same place together, the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left;
36 two men shall be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other left.’
37 And they answering say to him, ‘Where, sir?’ and he said to them, ‘Where the body [is], there will the eagles be gathered together.’

 

[CharismaticLady]

What is the Second coming?

Them in Revelation 7 are them who die during the great tribulation. Their souls are in heaven.

If you want to say that that they include Christians who refused to look for Jesus to be taken in the rapture, and end up going into the great tribulation and are martyred, I can agree to that. But that great multitude includes them who become Christians after the rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonians4:13-18 will have taken place, but end up being martyred.

You can not look for Jesus coming for the rapture - until after the great tribulation begins if you want, but I think it is a big mistake.

But don't you believe the "rapture" is before the Great Tribulation?

 

[CharismaticLady]

You make the decision whether you will be taken or not, according to what you believe and confess with your mouth. You cannot discourage others from looking for Jesus to rapture them, at anytime, and expect to be taken.

I believe I will be raptured, period. When that is, is up to Jesus.

 

[Douggg]

But don't you believe the "rapture" is before the Great Tribulation?

I believe the rapture could take place anytime, but it has to take place before the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord takes place slightly before the great tribulation begins.

The Antichrist going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood, triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

The image made of the beast, the abomination of desolation, placed in the temple, triggers the great tribulation.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I believe the rapture could take place anytime, but it has to take place before the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord takes place slightly before the great tribulation begins.

The Antichrist going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood, triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

The image made of the beast, the abomination of desolation, placed in the temple, triggers the great tribulation.

Well, doesn't Rev. 7 say "these are those who come out of the Great Tribulation." So they didn't die before the GT, they were in it.

 

[Douggg]

I believe I will be raptured, period. When that is, is up to Jesus.

But you are saying to other people that the rapture is not until after the great tribulation begins. That part is on you. There are consequences to what we confess with our mouths.

 

[Douggg]

Well, doesn't Rev. 7 say "these are those who come out of the Great Tribulation." So they didn't die before the GT, they were in it.

There will be multitudes who become Christians after the rapture takes place, and the great tribulation begins.

 

[CharismaticLady]

But you are saying to other people that the rapture is not after the great tribulation begins. That part is on you. There are consequences to what we confess with our mouths.

Excuse me? I'm saying the second coming rapture is at the end of the GT. What do you think I said? By the way could you answer this one you missed:

What do you mean by "a second" time. I know what I believe but what do you believe? Do you mean 1. the rapture and 2. the second coming?

That had to do with Hebrews 9:28

 

[CharismaticLady]

There will be multitudes who become Christians after the rapture takes place, and the great tribulation begins.

No, only Jews.

 

[keras]

To all who hold to the belief of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church:
Have you really considered any alternative to a 'rapture'? Because there are viable and scriptural end times scenarios where God's people remain on earth.
You need to know that many respected Bible scholars cast doubts on a rapture, if not actively refute that theory.

So the attitude of some 'rapture to heaven' believers, how they hold the moral high ground, is unwarranted and in some cases, amounts to a very judgmental and sometimes rude response to their fellow Christians.
This is a serious indictment against all who have strong beliefs but fail to really study or comprehend any alternatives.

Is it really God's Plan to remove His people, so they avoid the tough times prophesied to come?
Why should He do that for this generation, when all the previous generations have faced persecutions?
'Rapture' believers say it is a secret thing, therefore it’s not clearly stated in the Bible. Not in the Bible? So it is in fact, unbiblical and comes under the category of mankinds teachings. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Jesus warned us against being deceived; Paul said; that ravening wolves would deceive the flock, even from among the Christians men will distort the truth to get people to follow them. Acts 20:29-30
So, plainly; some are deceived and even if they may be in a majority, that does not mean their beliefs are true.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

CharismaticLady said: ↑
I totally disagree. That is the second coming. Look at Revelation 7. "those who come out of the Great Tribulation". Those are Christians who went into the GT as nominal Christians and had to give their lives as martyrs to stand up and be counted.

Douggg said: ↑
What is the Second coming?
Them in Revelation 7 are them who die during the great tribulation. Their souls are in heaven.

CharismaticLady said: ↑
But don't you believe the "rapture" is before the Great Tribulation?

Interesting.

Anyone want to take a stab at this verse in Reve 2?

Revelation 2:10 "tribulation 10 days"

Revelation 2:10
No yet thou be fearing! which-things thou are being about to be suffering<3958>.
Behold! the Devil is being about to be casting ye into a prison, that ye may be being tried<3985>. And ye shall be having tribulation ten days,
Be thou becoming faithful until death! and I shall be giving to thee the Crown of the Life.

 

[DennisTate]

Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!

If you are kind of bored you might want to get into my rambling attempt to connect the Rapture to hidden meaning in Yom Kippur / The Day of Atonement / the fast day of Judaism that occurs five days before the Festival of Tabernacles / Sukkot.

Yom Kippur/The Rapture connection?!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Interesting.

Anyone want to take a stab at this verse in Reve 2?

Revelation 2:10 "tribulation 10 days"

Revelation 2:10
No yet thou be fearing! which-things thou are being about to be suffering<3958>.
Behold! the Devil is being about to be casting ye into a prison, that ye may be being tried<3985>. And ye shall be having tribulation ten days,
Be thou becoming faithful until death! and I shall be giving to thee the Crown of the Life.

Sure, the 10 days of tribulation of the church age of Smyrna were the 10 emperors that martyred Christians. Don't forget the 7 letters (7 being the number of completeness), was the complete prophetic history of the Church in ages.

The myrrh, as the sound in Smyrna is used in treating dead bodies in ancient times before burial, thus Smyrna was the church age of martyrs. Remember it was one of the gifts of the three wisemen. It is very fragrant, and was also used in perfumes and incense.

 

[Anguspure]

Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!

I am not big on this sort of thing and tend to agree with @gradyll about the often divisive nature of people who discuss end times things.
But for what it's worth, my understanding is that the story of Ruth supplies a prophetic indication of the sort of pre-trib rapture.
The suggestion comes from an understanding of the threshing floor part of the story where when the wheat is separated from the tares. During the time of threshing Ruth (who symbolizes the Church grafted into Israel) is lying in safety and protection at the feet of her kinsman redeemer Boaz (Yeshua).

The late Chuck Missler provides some insight into this:

Excerpt from Learn the Bible in 24 Hours By Chuck Missler

Excerpt The Romance of Redemption - Dr. Chuck Missler

 

[GingerBeer]

Question for rapture peopke
I know it's a typo and it is kind of cute too but maybe someone with privileges that allow it can correct the spelling from peopke to people

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Sure, the 10 days of tribulation of the church age of Smyrna were the 10 emperors that martyred Christians. Don't forget the 7 letters (7 being the number of completeness), was the complete prophetic history of the Church in ages.
The myrrh, as the sound in Smyrna is used in treating dead bodies in ancient times before burial, thus Smyrna was the church age of martyrs. Remember it was one of the gifts of the three wisemen. It is very fragrant, and was also used in perfumes and incense.

Interesting post CL.
I decided to take a closer look at that Church and it would make for a fascinating study.

It appears Smyrna and Philadelphia are 2 of the Churches that the Lord laid no charges against..

Myrrh - Wikipedia
Smyrna means “sweet smelling” and comes from the root word for myrrh.

In the New Testament

Myrrh is mentioned in the New Testament as one of the three gifts (with gold and frankincense) that the magi "from the East" presented to the Christ Child (Matthew 2:11).
Myrrh was also present at Jesus' death and burial. Jesus was offered wine and myrrh before the crucifixion (Mark 15:23). According to John's Gospel, Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea brought a 100-pound mixture of myrrh and aloes to wrap Jesus' body (John 19:39). The Gospel of Matthew relates that as Jesus went to the cross, he was given vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink (Matthew 27:34); the Gospel of Mark describes the drink as wine mingled with myrrh (Mark 15:23).

In contemporary Christianity

Because of its mention in the New Testament, myrrh is an incense offered during some Christian liturgical celebrations (see Thurible). Liquid myrrh is sometimes added to egg tempera in the making of icons. Myrrh is mixed with frankincense and sometimes more scents and is used in almost every service of the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, traditional Roman Catholic, and Anglican/Episcopal churches.

Myrrh is also used to prepare the sacramental chrism used by many churches of both Eastern and Western rites. In the Middle East, the Eastern Orthodox Church traditionally uses oil scented with myrrh (and other fragrances) to perform the sacrament of chrismation, which is commonly referred to as "receiving the Chrism".

The word "myrrh" is only used 2 times in the NT.

At the birth of Jesus and at His burial

Matthew 2:11
and having come to the house, they found the Child with Mary His mother, and having fallen down they bowed to Him,
And having opened their treasures, they presented to Him gifts, gold, and frankincense, and myrrh,

John 39:
18 and Nicodemus also came -- who came unto Jesus by night at the first --
bearing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, as it were, a hundred pounds.
19 They took, therefore, the body of Jesus, and bound it with linen clothes with the spices, according as it was the custom of the Jews to prepare for burial;
===========================

The myrrh plant is found throughout the Middle East and was used in the manufacture of an aromatic ointment. When bruised and crushed, the myrrh gives forth a lovely fragrance.
Myrrh was used to embalm the bodies of the dead. Carefully the linens were prepared, and wound around the bodies of the loved ones, while myrrh was packed between the folds of the cloth. Thus was the body of our Lord embalmed!

After the death of Jesus, the women, who had loved and followed Him on earth, brought one hundred pounds of myrrh and aloes to the tomb. With what grief did they take that precious body and wind about it the linen cloths! With what untold tenderness did they lay it away in the bed of fragrant spices!

Thus myrrh is a type of suffering and death, and some in the church at Smyrna were to pass through bitter persecution, severe trials, and intense testings, as a picture of that which all of God’s called and chosen elect must also pass through. Their sufferings, however, instead of destroying them, would give forth the rich perfume of heaven, the life of the spirit!

==============================
Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
SMYRNA

Of the seven churches, two of them received no indictment from the Lord, nor were they told to repent. The church in Smyrna was known as the “suffering church” because of their severe persecutions, and they were not told to repent.

The Lord saw their trouble and tribulation, their poverty and imprisonment, their unswerving steadfastness and great faithfulness, and they did not need to be told to repent. It was in their hearts to repent when the need arose, for the work of God ran deep in their lives. Considering all they would suffer, the Lord said to them, “Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life” (Rev. 2:10).
Another church against which the Lord laid no charge, nor did He tell them to repent, was the church in Philadelphia. The Lord saw that they kept His word and had not denied His name, or nature. Because they kept the word of His patience, by which the kingdom of God is inherited, He gave them wonderful promises.

 

[GingerBeer]

Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!

"Rapture" is intended to mean "snatch away" I think. It's a fairly recent doctrine. The product of Darbyism. So it isn't a part of either testament but some passage do give a vague reference to being "taken up" in various circumstances. And some passages from the Thessalonian letters of Paul can be read in a Darby-friendly way I think, but that is more a matter of imposing J N Darby's eschatology on scripture than discovering it to be clearly revealed in scripture.