Question for rapture people

[keras]

Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!

Do humans ever go to heaven? NO we do not!

The belief and teaching that all humans have natural immortality via an immortal soul can be traced back thousands of years. We can see from history that nations like Egypt and Babylon taught their people about an immortal soul in every human, that continued to live, to think and to experience life, after the body had died. Depending on the nation and on their spiritual theology they had, would come various teachings about where and under what conditions this immortal soul would experience after the death of the physical body. Some nations would bury the dead body in graves with all kinds of things for the departed to take with them and to use to enjoy in the afterlife.

Different nations may have had different places where the departed soul would live when it left the dead body, but to put it in simple language, the immortal soul was in a "heaven" of some sort. They even had gloomy underworlds for those not thought to have done enough good in their physical lives to warrant the prize of "heaven."

All this should start to sound somewhat familiar with certain teaching and beliefs of many Christian churches and organizations. Many have heard the "hell-fire and brimstone" sermons preached loud and vigorously by a Christian minister or Camp-meeting tent revivalist. Such preaching of course includes telling you that if you "give your heart to the Lord" and turn from sin, you can "go to heaven" and live in bliss, doing...well they are not sure, maybe singing and strumming on a harp?

Just about all Christians today believe they shall "get to heaven" one day. They firmly believe that going to heaven is one of the basic rewards of being Christian. To think, and to teach

otherwise, to them, is pretty close to being a nutty and strange heretic. They are convinced the Bible shows and tells us that going to heaven is the automatic reward of the children of God. And most believe that going to heaven takes place when the physical body stops breathing and dies. Yet this common and prevailing theological view was not the common view or teaching of the early New Testament Church of God.

The early NT church did not teach or believe in going to heaven at death, for those faithful Christians. Church history shows that it was only through the teachings of people like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and others that most professing Christians gradually came to adopt the belief of the immortal soul, and going immediately "somewhere" after the death of the body. Many were coming into the popular church of the Roman Empire, founded in Rome, who already held to Hellenistic philosophy, Egyptian mythology, and Babylonian Mystery religions, with an after death life of some sort as the foundation of it all. They did not want to give up this teaching and belief, just as they did not want to abandon many other false teachings and practices. So, to accommodate them the large popular church took many of these old pagan beliefs and re-clothed them with Christian garments. Hence, as the millenniums came and went today's doctrines of the immortal soul as taught together with an ever burning hell fire for the wicked, a purgatory for those who may not have sinned unto eternal torment, and can possibly yet be granted heaven and a heaven where God is, for the righteous. All this came to be church doctrines.

Most Christians believe they will at some point "get to heaven" where God is dwelling. Some do not believe you go to heaven at death, but that death is a sleep until the resurrection, then when Jesus returns to raise the righteous dead, all go back with Him to heaven for a thousand years, until the new earth comes into being. Others believe that Christ returns to "rapture" His Church away from the terrible tribulation then taking place on the earth, and that they spent either 7 years or 3 1/2 years in heaven, before returning again with Christ to set up the

Kingdom of God on earth for a thousand years.

Whatever the various beliefs of certain religious sects and denominations is on this matter, just about all of them teach and believe that the good Christian will someday, for some period

of time "go to heaven" where the Father lives and dwells in the heavenly Jerusalem.


IF WE SHALL GO TO HEAVEN ONE DAY....

And if this is a fundamental plain teaching of the Bible, then surely we should be able to find many verses all over the Bible saying things such as: "When we get to heaven," "When we see each other in heaven," "They are up there in heaven with God," "We shall go to heaven at Christ's return," "We shall be in heaven where God is one day." BUT VERSES LIKE THIS CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!

BUT, what we do read in the Bible is the Words of Jesus: No man goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13 Where I go, you cannot come. John 7:34 Your home is in this world, Mine is not. John 8:23 I do not pray, Father, that You take them out of this world.... John 17:15

So the truth is, the idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is a straight out Satanic lie; one of his most successful ones, that will cause many unprepared Christians to fall on the Day of trial. 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15


Most Christians think that heaven is our destination and preachers tout it from the pulpit. Why then didn't the people of the Bible use such language? Could it be that they knew that going off to heaven where God the Father now dwells was NEVER promised to any earthy mortal person?

The word "heaven" is used 570 times in the Bible. "Heavenly" appears 23 times and "heavens" is used 121 times. Surely, somewhere, in all those uses we can find a statement: "When we are in heaven" or "We are going to go to heaven" or maybe "He has gone to God in heaven." If you take a Bible concordance you can find all the verses where "heaven," "heavenly," and heavens" are used throughout the Bible. Look them up! See if you can find a verse that says, "We shall go to heaven," "Heaven is our eternal abode," "They are up in heaven" or any plain statement about Christians or children of God going to be with God in heaven for ANY length of time. You have over 500 places where "heaven" is used. Try to find any verse that tells us clearly we shall someday, sometime, go to live where God the Father dwells.

There are THREE heavens mentioned in the Bible. 1) The heaven [atmosphere] where the birds fly. 2) the heaven [space] where the planets and stars are. 3) The heaven [spiritual] where God's throne is, where God is now.

I knew a man in Christ.... caught up to the THIRD heaven....He was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words....2 Cor. 12:2-4 The third heaven is where God dwells!


KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ?

Some will say, "Well Christ talked about our being in the Kingdom of heaven. Surely that proves we shall 'go to heaven'. If it does, then some shall be in heaven while others are not. Matthew 5:3-5. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven....blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. The Kingdom OF heaven is the Kingdom that BELONGS to heaven. It is owned and operated by heaven. the Kingdom that BELONGS to God, not the Kingdom inside God. The Gospels according to Mark and Luke use "Kingdom OF God"


OUR REWARD IS IN HEAVEN
Is not our reward to go to heaven? Are there not some verses that say something to that effect? Here they are: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven.... Matthew 5:12 Do not display your religion before others, if you do you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. Matthew 6:1 But lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven.....Luke 6:23 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled…reserved in heaven for you. 1 Peter 1:4

Now, let's be honest. Do the above verses say: "Our reward is to get to heaven" or "When we get to heaven we shall be given our reward." Do these verses say: "Our reserved inheritance is to get to heaven to be with God" ? No, they do not! Truly, Christians will receive rewards and we are to inherit eternal life, but when? Eternal life comes at the resurrection. Read 1 Cor.15; Rev.2:10; 2 Tim.4:8 Our rewards are to be given to us by Christ at His return. And, behold, I come quickly, and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev. 22:12 Our rewards and inheritance are reserved in heaven. They come down out of heaven with Christ at his return.


NAMED TO GO TO HEAVEN?
Are not Christians named and written down in a book to go to heaven? ….but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven Luke 10:20 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven....Heb. 12:23
Do these verses say, "Because you will go to heaven" or "The church of the firstborn will one day get to heaven" ? No! Our names (God knows who are His) are written down in the book of life, the book of life being in heaven. But we receive life eternal after the Great White Throne Judgement, when the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15


OUR HOPE....TO GO TO HEAVEN?
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel. Col.1:5 What is the hope for Christians? Paul answers in another letter he wrote: But if there be NO RESURRECTION of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.....then they which are also fallen asleep in Christ are PERISHED....For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man on his own order: Christ the firstfruits: AFTERWARDS they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. 1 Cor. 15: 13-23

Our HOPE is Christ, who has been raised from the dead and is now in heaven, waiting to be sent back to this earth when He shall RESURRECT the DEAD. 1 Thes.4: 16

Colossians 1:5 does NOT say, "Our hope is to get to heaven." Or "The church's hope is to be with Christ in heaven." It says: our HOPE is kept in heaven. That hope is Christ and His Return. Philippians 3:20 Christian believers are citizens of heaven and from heaven we can expect our Deliverer to come: The Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice! This Kingdom is in heaven that we are citizens of. If we be Christ's, we belong to His family. We are brothers of His, we are part of God's family, His children, and so of His government, kingdom, which is at present in heaven. Not that we are in heaven, for the reality is: we live on earth, but the Kingdom, where our citizenship is; that we now belong to, is in heaven.


NO MAN HAS EVER GONE TO HEAVEN
Here is a plain and easy to understand verse: And NO MAN has ASCENDED up to heaven, except for He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 BELIEVE what Christ said, He should know. He was in heaven with the Father from the beginning, and He did not see any human ever come from earth up to heaven. It’s indisputable, Enoch could not have gone to the third heaven, neither did Moses, nor did Elijah. All humans who have ever lived, or will live, up to the Return of Jesus and are not still alive when Jesus comes, will sleep in death. They will be in the grave, and the martyrs, those killed for their faith, Revelation 20:4, wait to hear the voice of the Son of man, to rise from the dead in a resurrection. Then, for a thousand years they shall reign with Christ on His throne over this earth, as they establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

At the end of the thousand years comes the new heavens and the new earth. Then the heavenly Jerusalem together with God the Father will come from heaven to this new earth, which will then become the dwelling place of the throne of the universe for all Eternity.


What we can say is that we, the children of God, will one day be in heaven.....yes.....when heaven comes to earth. Revelation 21:1-4 But what we cannot say is that any human will be taken up to heaven to avoid the wrath to come. The Lord promises protection to all these who place their trust in Him and this may be a profound spiritual experience. Nahum 1:1-8, Isaiah 43:2, +
Ref: Keith Hunt

 

[Dave L]

Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!

No scripture directly supports it. It is a strong delusion.

 

[keras]

Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!

Do humans ever go to heaven? NO they don't!
The belief and teaching that all humans have natural immortality via an immortal soul can be traced back thousands of years. We can see from history that nations like Egypt and Babylon taught their people about an immortal soul in every human, that continued to live, to think and to experience life, after the body had died. Depending on the nation and on their spiritual theology they had, would come various teachings about where and under what conditions this immortal soul would experience after the death of the physical body. Some nations would bury the dead body in graves with all kinds of things for the departed to take with them and to use to enjoy in the afterlife.

Different nations may have had different places where the departed soul would live when it left the dead body, but to put it in simple language, the immortal soul was in a "heaven" of some sort. They even had gloomy underworlds for those not thought to have done enough good in their physical lives to warrant the prize of "heaven."

All this should start to sound somewhat familiar with certain teaching and beliefs of many Christian churches and organizations. Many have heard the "hell-fire and brimstone" sermons preached loud and vigorously by a Christian minister or Camp-meeting tent revivalist. Such preaching of course includes telling you that if you "give your heart to the Lord" and turn from sin, you can "go to heaven" and live in bliss, doing...well they are not sure, maybe singing and strumming on a harp?

Just about all Christians today believe they shall "get to heaven" one day. They firmly believe that going to heaven is one of the basic rewards of being Christian. To think, and to teach otherwise, to them, is pretty close to being a nutty and strange heretic. They are convinced the Bible shows and tells us that going to heaven is the automatic reward of the children of God. And most believe that going to heaven takes place when the physical body stops breathing and dies. Yet this common and prevailing theological view was not the common view or teaching of the early New Testament Church of God.

The early NT church did not teach or believe in going to heaven at death, for those faithful Christians. Church history shows that it was only through the teachings of people like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and others that most professing Christians gradually came to adopt the belief of the immortal soul, and going immediately "somewhere" after the death of the body. Many were coming into the popular church of the Roman Empire, founded in Rome, who already held to Hellenistic philosophy, Egyptian mythology, and Babylonian Mystery religions, with an after death life of some sort as the foundation of it all. They did not want to give up this teaching and belief, just as they did not want to abandon many other false teachings and practices. So, to accommodate them the large popular church took many of these old pagan beliefs and re-clothed them with Christian garments. Hence, as the millenniums came and went today's doctrines of the immortal soul as taught together with an ever burning hell fire for the wicked, a purgatory for those who may not have sinned unto eternal torment, and can possibly yet be granted heaven and a heaven where God is, for the righteous. All this came to be church doctrines.

Most Christians believe they will at some point "get to heaven" where God is dwelling. Some do not believe you go to heaven at death, but that death is a sleep until the resurrection, then when Jesus returns to raise the righteous dead, all go back with Him to heaven for a thousand years, until the new earth comes into being. Others believe that Christ returns to "rapture" His Church away from the terrible tribulation then taking place on the earth, and that they spent either 7 years or 3 1/2 years in heaven, before returning again with Christ to set up the
Kingdom of God on earth for a thousand years.

Whatever the various beliefs of certain religious sects and denominations is on this matter, just about all of them teach and believe that the good Christian will someday, for some period of time "go to heaven" where the Father lives and dwells in the heavenly Jerusalem.


IF WE SHALL GO TO HEAVEN ONE DAY....
And if this is a fundamental plain teaching of the Bible, then surely we should be able to find many verses all over the Bible saying things such as: "When we get to heaven," "When we see each other in heaven," "They are up there in heaven with God," "We shall go to heaven at Christ's return," "We shall be in heaven where God is one day." BUT VERSES LIKE THIS CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!

BUT, what we do read in the Bible is the Words of Jesus: No man goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13 Where I go, you cannot come. John 7:34 Your home is in this world, Mine is not. John 8:23 I do not pray, Father, that You take them out of this world.... John 17:15

So the truth is, the idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is a straight out Satanic lie; one of his most successful ones, that will cause many unprepared Christians to fall on the Day of trial. 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15


Most Christians think that heaven is our destination and preachers tout it from the pulpit. Why then didn't the people of the Bible use such language? Could it be that they knew that going off to heaven where God the Father now dwells was NEVER promised to any earthy mortal person?

The word "heaven" is used 570 times in the Bible. "Heavenly" appears 23 times and "heavens" is used 121 times. Surely, somewhere, in all those uses we can find a statement: "When we are in heaven" or "We are going to go to heaven" or maybe "He has gone to God in heaven." If you take a Bible concordance you can find all the verses where "heaven," "heavenly," and heavens" are used throughout the Bible. Look them up! See if you can find a verse that says, "We shall go to heaven," "Heaven is our eternal abode," "They are up in heaven" or any plain statement about Christians or children of God going to be with God in heaven for ANY length of time. You have over 500 places where "heaven" is used. Try to find any verse that tells us clearly we shall someday, sometime, go to live where God the Father dwells.

There are THREE heavens mentioned in the Bible. 1) The heaven [atmosphere] where the birds fly. 2) the heaven [space] where the planets and stars are. 3) The heaven [spiritual] where God's throne is, where God is now.

I knew a man in Christ.... caught up to the THIRD heaven....He was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words....2 Cor. 12:2-4 The third heaven is where God dwells!


KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ?

Some will say, "Well Christ talked about our being in the Kingdom of heaven. Surely that proves we shall 'go to heaven'. If it does, then some shall be in heaven while others are not. Matthew 5:3-5. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven....blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. The Kingdom OF heaven is the Kingdom that BELONGS to heaven. It is owned and operated by heaven. the Kingdom that BELONGS to God, not the Kingdom inside God. The Gospels according to Mark and Luke use "Kingdom OF God"


OUR REWARD IS IN HEAVEN
Is not our reward to go to heaven? Are there not some verses that say something to that effect? Here they are: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven.... Matthew 5:12 Do not display your religion before others, if you do you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. Matthew 6:1 But lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven.....Luke 6:23 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled…reserved in heaven for you. 1 Peter 1:4

Now, let's be honest. Do the above verses say: "Our reward is to get to heaven" or "When we get to heaven we shall be given our reward." Do these verses say: "Our reserved inheritance is to get to heaven to be with God" ? No, they do not! Truly, Christians will receive rewards and we are to inherit eternal life, but when? Eternal life comes at the resurrection. Read 1 Cor.15; Rev.2:10; 2 Tim.4:8 Our rewards are to be given to us by Christ at His return. And, behold, I come quickly, and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev. 22:12 Our rewards and inheritance are reserved in heaven. They come down out of heaven with Christ at his return.


NAMED TO GO TO HEAVEN?
Are not Christians named and written down in a book to go to heaven? ….but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven Luke 10:20 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven....Heb. 12:23
Do these verses say, "Because you will go to heaven" or "The church of the firstborn will one day get to heaven" ? No! Our names (God knows who are His) are written down in the book of life, the book of life being in heaven. But we receive life eternal after the Great White Throne Judgement, when the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15


OUR HOPE....TO GO TO HEAVEN?
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel. Col.1:5 What is the hope for Christians? Paul answers in another letter he wrote: But if there be NO RESURRECTION of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.....then they which are also fallen asleep in Christ are PERISHED....For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man on his own order: Christ the firstfruits: AFTERWARDS they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. 1 Cor. 15: 13-23

Our HOPE is Christ, who has been raised from the dead and is now in heaven, waiting to be sent back to this earth when He shall RESURRECT the DEAD. 1 Thes.4: 16

Colossians 1:5 does NOT say, "Our hope is to get to heaven." Or "The church's hope is to be with Christ in heaven." It says: our HOPE is kept in heaven. That hope is Christ and His Return. Philippians 3:20 Christian believers are citizens of heaven and from heaven we can expect our Deliverer to come: The Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice! This Kingdom is in heaven that we are citizens of. If we be Christ's, we belong to His family. We are brothers of His, we are part of God's family, His children, and so of His government, kingdom, which is at present in heaven. Not that we are in heaven, for the reality is: we live on earth, but the Kingdom, where our citizenship is; that we now belong to, is in heaven.


NO MAN HAS EVER GONE TO HEAVEN
Here is a plain and easy to understand verse: And NO MAN has ASCENDED up to heaven, except for He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 BELIEVE what Christ said, He should know. He was in heaven with the Father from the beginning, and He did not see any human ever come from earth up to heaven. It’s indisputable, Enoch could not have gone to the third heaven, neither did Moses, nor did Elijah. All humans who have ever lived, or will live, up to the Return of Jesus and are not still alive when Jesus comes, will sleep in death. They will be in the grave, and the martyrs, those killed for their faith, Revelation 20:4, wait to hear the voice of the Son of man, to rise from the dead in a resurrection. Then, for a thousand years they shall reign with Christ on His throne over this earth, as they establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

At the end of the thousand years comes the new heavens and the new earth. Then the heavenly Jerusalem together with God the Father will come from heaven to this new earth, which will then become the dwelling place of the throne of the universe for all Eternity.


What we can say is that we, the children of God, will one day be in heaven.....yes.....when heaven comes to earth. Revelation 21:1-4 But what we cannot say is that any human will be taken up to heaven to avoid the wrath to come. The Lord promises protection to all these who place their trust in Him and this may be a profound spiritual experience. Nahum 1:1-8, Isaiah 43:2, +
Ref: Keith Hunt

 

[CharismaticLady]

Jesus was a prophet, and God Himself. The rapture has not happened yet, but it has been revealed by Jesus and his servant Paul. 1Thessalonians4:13-18. Luke 21:34-36. And awareness of the rapture is so widespread, it cannot be said that it has not be revealed.

Following the rapture, and after the great tribulation here on earth comes to a close, the raptured saints return with Jesus in Zechariah 14:5, the Lord cometh with all His saints.

Jesus comes with all who have died, but no where does it say he comes back with the raptured living. Those are the "we who remain."

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Do humans ever go to heaven? NO they don't!
The belief and teaching that all humans have natural immortality via an immortal soul can be traced back thousands of years. We can see from history that nations like Egypt and Babylon taught their people about an immortal soul in every human, that continued to live, to think and to experience life, after the body had died. Depending on the nation and on their spiritual theology they had, would come various teachings about where and under what conditions this immortal soul would experience after the death of the physical body. Some nations would bury the dead body in graves with all kinds of things for the departed to take with them and to use to enjoy in the afterlife.

Different nations may have had different places where the departed soul would live when it left the dead body, but to put it in simple language, the immortal soul was in a "heaven" of some sort. They even had gloomy underworlds for those not thought to have done enough good in their physical lives to warrant the prize of "heaven."

All this should start to sound somewhat familiar with certain teaching and beliefs of many Christian churches and organizations. Many have heard the "hell-fire and brimstone" sermons preached loud and vigorously by a Christian minister or Camp-meeting tent revivalist. Such preaching of course includes telling you that if you "give your heart to the Lord" and turn from sin, you can "go to heaven" and live in bliss, doing...well they are not sure, maybe singing and strumming on a harp?

Just about all Christians today believe they shall "get to heaven" one day. They firmly believe that going to heaven is one of the basic rewards of being Christian. To think, and to teach otherwise, to them, is pretty close to being a nutty and strange heretic. They are convinced the Bible shows and tells us that going to heaven is the automatic reward of the children of God. And most believe that going to heaven takes place when the physical body stops breathing and dies. Yet this common and prevailing theological view was not the common view or teaching of the early New Testament Church of God.

The early NT church did not teach or believe in going to heaven at death, for those faithful Christians. Church history shows that it was only through the teachings of people like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and others that most professing Christians gradually came to adopt the belief of the immortal soul, and going immediately "somewhere" after the death of the body. Many were coming into the popular church of the Roman Empire, founded in Rome, who already held to Hellenistic philosophy, Egyptian mythology, and Babylonian Mystery religions, with an after death life of some sort as the foundation of it all. They did not want to give up this teaching and belief, just as they did not want to abandon many other false teachings and practices. So, to accommodate them the large popular church took many of these old pagan beliefs and re-clothed them with Christian garments. Hence, as the millenniums came and went today's doctrines of the immortal soul as taught together with an ever burning hell fire for the wicked, a purgatory for those who may not have sinned unto eternal torment, and can possibly yet be granted heaven and a heaven where God is, for the righteous. All this came to be church doctrines.

Most Christians believe they will at some point "get to heaven" where God is dwelling. Some do not believe you go to heaven at death, but that death is a sleep until the resurrection, then when Jesus returns to raise the righteous dead, all go back with Him to heaven for a thousand years, until the new earth comes into being. Others believe that Christ returns to "rapture" His Church away from the terrible tribulation then taking place on the earth, and that they spent either 7 years or 3 1/2 years in heaven, before returning again with Christ to set up the
Kingdom of God on earth for a thousand years.

Whatever the various beliefs of certain religious sects and denominations is on this matter, just about all of them teach and believe that the good Christian will someday, for some period of time "go to heaven" where the Father lives and dwells in the heavenly Jerusalem.


IF WE SHALL GO TO HEAVEN ONE DAY....
And if this is a fundamental plain teaching of the Bible, then surely we should be able to find many verses all over the Bible saying things such as: "When we get to heaven," "When we see each other in heaven," "They are up there in heaven with God," "We shall go to heaven at Christ's return," "We shall be in heaven where God is one day." BUT VERSES LIKE THIS CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!

BUT, what we do read in the Bible is the Words of Jesus: No man goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13 Where I go, you cannot come. John 7:34 Your home is in this world, Mine is not. John 8:23 I do not pray, Father, that You take them out of this world.... John 17:15

So the truth is, the idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is a straight out Satanic lie; one of his most successful ones, that will cause many unprepared Christians to fall on the Day of trial. 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15


Most Christians think that heaven is our destination and preachers tout it from the pulpit. Why then didn't the people of the Bible use such language? Could it be that they knew that going off to heaven where God the Father now dwells was NEVER promised to any earthy mortal person?

The word "heaven" is used 570 times in the Bible. "Heavenly" appears 23 times and "heavens" is used 121 times. Surely, somewhere, in all those uses we can find a statement: "When we are in heaven" or "We are going to go to heaven" or maybe "He has gone to God in heaven." If you take a Bible concordance you can find all the verses where "heaven," "heavenly," and heavens" are used throughout the Bible. Look them up! See if you can find a verse that says, "We shall go to heaven," "Heaven is our eternal abode," "They are up in heaven" or any plain statement about Christians or children of God going to be with God in heaven for ANY length of time. You have over 500 places where "heaven" is used. Try to find any verse that tells us clearly we shall someday, sometime, go to live where God the Father dwells.

There are THREE heavens mentioned in the Bible. 1) The heaven [atmosphere] where the birds fly. 2) the heaven [space] where the planets and stars are. 3) The heaven [spiritual] where God's throne is, where God is now.

I knew a man in Christ.... caught up to the THIRD heaven....He was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words....2 Cor. 12:2-4 The third heaven is where God dwells!


KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ?

Some will say, "Well Christ talked about our being in the Kingdom of heaven. Surely that proves we shall 'go to heaven'. If it does, then some shall be in heaven while others are not. Matthew 5:3-5. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven....blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. The Kingdom OF heaven is the Kingdom that BELONGS to heaven. It is owned and operated by heaven. the Kingdom that BELONGS to God, not the Kingdom inside God. The Gospels according to Mark and Luke use "Kingdom OF God"


OUR REWARD IS IN HEAVEN
Is not our reward to go to heaven? Are there not some verses that say something to that effect? Here they are: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven.... Matthew 5:12 Do not display your religion before others, if you do you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. Matthew 6:1 But lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven.....Luke 6:23 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled…reserved in heaven for you. 1 Peter 1:4

Now, let's be honest. Do the above verses say: "Our reward is to get to heaven" or "When we get to heaven we shall be given our reward." Do these verses say: "Our reserved inheritance is to get to heaven to be with God" ? No, they do not! Truly, Christians will receive rewards and we are to inherit eternal life, but when? Eternal life comes at the resurrection. Read 1 Cor.15; Rev.2:10; 2 Tim.4:8 Our rewards are to be given to us by Christ at His return. And, behold, I come quickly, and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev. 22:12 Our rewards and inheritance are reserved in heaven. They come down out of heaven with Christ at his return.


NAMED TO GO TO HEAVEN?
Are not Christians named and written down in a book to go to heaven? ….but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven Luke 10:20 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven....Heb. 12:23
Do these verses say, "Because you will go to heaven" or "The church of the firstborn will one day get to heaven" ? No! Our names (God knows who are His) are written down in the book of life, the book of life being in heaven. But we receive life eternal after the Great White Throne Judgement, when the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15


OUR HOPE....TO GO TO HEAVEN?
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel. Col.1:5 What is the hope for Christians? Paul answers in another letter he wrote: But if there be NO RESURRECTION of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.....then they which are also fallen asleep in Christ are PERISHED....For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man on his own order: Christ the firstfruits: AFTERWARDS they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. 1 Cor. 15: 13-23

Our HOPE is Christ, who has been raised from the dead and is now in heaven, waiting to be sent back to this earth when He shall RESURRECT the DEAD. 1 Thes.4: 16

Colossians 1:5 does NOT say, "Our hope is to get to heaven." Or "The church's hope is to be with Christ in heaven." It says: our HOPE is kept in heaven. That hope is Christ and His Return. Philippians 3:20 Christian believers are citizens of heaven and from heaven we can expect our Deliverer to come: The Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice! This Kingdom is in heaven that we are citizens of. If we be Christ's, we belong to His family. We are brothers of His, we are part of God's family, His children, and so of His government, kingdom, which is at present in heaven. Not that we are in heaven, for the reality is: we live on earth, but the Kingdom, where our citizenship is; that we now belong to, is in heaven.


NO MAN HAS EVER GONE TO HEAVEN
Here is a plain and easy to understand verse: And NO MAN has ASCENDED up to heaven, except for He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 BELIEVE what Christ said, He should know. He was in heaven with the Father from the beginning, and He did not see any human ever come from earth up to heaven. It’s indisputable, Enoch could not have gone to the third heaven, neither did Moses, nor did Elijah. All humans who have ever lived, or will live, up to the Return of Jesus and are not still alive when Jesus comes, will sleep in death. They will be in the grave, and the martyrs, those killed for their faith, Revelation 20:4, wait to hear the voice of the Son of man, to rise from the dead in a resurrection. Then, for a thousand years they shall reign with Christ on His throne over this earth, as they establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

At the end of the thousand years comes the new heavens and the new earth. Then the heavenly Jerusalem together with God the Father will come from heaven to this new earth, which will then become the dwelling place of the throne of the universe for all Eternity.


What we can say is that we, the children of God, will one day be in heaven.....yes.....when heaven comes to earth. Revelation 21:1-4 But what we cannot say is that any human will be taken up to heaven to avoid the wrath to come. The Lord promises protection to all these who place their trust in Him and this may be a profound spiritual experience. Nahum 1:1-8, Isaiah 43:2, +
Ref: Keith Hunt

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

 

[His student]

Still waiting. It just seems that if God cared enough to describe even the most minute details of Jesus' life even to points where it would to most seem insignificant then I would think that a huge event like the rapture would be prophesied in the OT too and we would have clear details of that as well .

I happen to believe in the rapture because of the wrath of God that is coming on this earth according to the Book of Revelation compared with the fact that God told us that we are not destined for wrath and even that He would keep us from what is coming on this earth.

But, having gotten that off my chest - the rapture is prophesied in the O.T. in type and shadow just as many of the events and ministries in the life, death and resurrection of the Messiah are displayed in type and shadow.

Having said that - I'm not sure where you get the idea that an event involving the last split second of the church in this age must be explained clearly and in great detail in the O.T. scriptures when even the existence of that church and what must occur in the church age is pretty much a mystery in the O.T.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I happen to believe in the rapture because of the wrath of God that is coming on this earth according to the Book of Revelation vis a vis the fact that God told us that we are not destined for wrath and even that He would keep us from what is coming on this earth.

For one thing tribulation is not wrath. It is for making us strong in Him. You have to be strong to bear being martyred. And nominal Christians now, will be tested then. You see, not every Christian will be kept from the Tribulation. Only those who are now keeping His word. 1 John 3:21-23. But even those who are "kept" will be on the earth, but like the children of Israel in Egypt they were kept from the plagues that hit all around them on the Egyptians. It is a paradigm.

Another thing, if you believe in the "secret" rapture years before the second coming, you must believe that Jesus comes back with both the living and the dead, but that is not true.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!

Hello.
One OT passage that comes to mind is Daniel 12 in conjunction with 70AD Luke 21.
Note the word "escape" used, which in Luke 21 means those in Judea fleeing to the mountains [or Pella] before the Romans came in 70AD......no rapture into the air mentioned........
Hope this helps............

Are Daniel 12:1 and Luke 21:23, 36 same event ?

Daniel 12:1
"In that time Michael shall stand-up, the chief/prince, the great, the one, standing over sons of thy people.
And time of distress<06869>, which not occurred since to become of a nation, until the time, that.
And in that time, thy people escape<4422>, Every of the one being found being written in scroll. Luke 21:23-36

Luke 21:
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress<318> in the land and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Herod's Temple: Revelation 11:2 and the Court/fold<833> without of the Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side<1854>, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations and the holy City they shall be treading<3961> forty two months.

36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching<69>, in every season<2540> beseeching<1189> that ye should be being strong to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about to be becoming and to stand before the Son of the Man.[Daniel 12:1]
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The false "Rapture of Futurist Dispensationalism.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

Rapture Refuted! Pre-tribulation Rapture and Premillennialism Refuted Home page

See: The Origin of Rapture Doctrine in 1830 AD (Inventor: John Darby)

See: 50 ways Pre-millennialism contradicts the Bible

Introduction:

1. Rapture doctrine is widely believed today, but it did not exist before it "popped" into John Darby's head in 1830 AD. If you believe in the Rapture, you probably wrongly assumed it was a historic Bible doctrine, when in fact it was born in the era of the cults (1830-1880 AD).

2. Rapture doctrine is one of the most recent "new doctrines" in the history of the Church. The only doctrine more recent is the invention of the sinner's prayer for salvation by Billy Sunday in 1930, which was made popular by Billy Graham in 1935.

3. Rapture promoters usually claim to have inspiration, are prophets, apostles, "the Elijah", have special illumination from the Holy Spirit and that God has revealed new doctrines not previously known by anyone, including the apostle Paul himself. They believe in

4. There are two types of false teachers who promote Rapture: "Date setters" like Camping whose DATE is not the rapture but their own self-extinction on the world religious stage... if they are honest. "Date Teasers" like Jack Van Impe are cowards who promote the end as being VERY VERY soon, but never specific, in order to keep the hundreds of millions of dollars flowing.

5. Christians reject the rapture and rely upon the pages of the Bible alone as a sole source of conduct and doctrine. . Find a church that exposes the Rapture as a heresy in your own home town.

6. See also: What will happen at the End of The World?

7. See also: Will There Be A Rapture?

8. See also: Who is the Anti-Christ???

9. See also: All the dead will be raised at same moment, not 1000 apart.

Lee Jang Rim: Mission For The Coming Days 28 October 1992
Lee Jang Rim started a church called, "Mission For The Coming Days" was jailed for two years after embezzling 4.4 million dollars 10,000 of his cult followers. He had used the money to buy bonds that matured after the end of the world. The cult looked forward to the Second Coming at 9:00 am on this day. They believed that Jesus would return through Sydney Harbour! They had their prayers and songs. At the fatal hour there was a loud countdown of the final seconds - 10, 9, 8, 7, 6 etc.






1994:

Harold Camping in his book "Are You Ready?" predicted the Lord's return in Sept 1994. The book was full of methods that added up Bible numbers up to 1994 as the date of Christ's return.

The prophecy failed and now Camping is predicting May 21, 2011 as the rapture and judgment day.


Rapture in November 2007?
A False teacher named Shelby Corbett, of Bradenton, Florida has put up benches throughout town advertising the rapture will happen in November 2007! She has little Bible knowledge and is trying to make money selling her book called, "Rapture 2007" which came out in 2004.






April 17, 2008? Fall of 2011?
May 27, 2012?



Ronald Weinland, 2008 - God's Final Witness, Church of God (Armstrong splinter group) When his prophecies failed, he revised his timeline he stated Christ's will now return on May 27, 2012 and that the tribulation began on September 20, 2009. Today, Weinland calls himself an apostle a prophet, the "Elijah who is to come" and one of the two witnesses of Revelation... his wife being the other witness.

"If it doesn't come to pass...starting in April, 2008, then I'm nothing but a false prophet ... (Ronald Weinland, 2008 - God's Final Witness, Church of God)

 

[Blade]

So reading "Caught up" in 1st Thes is not enough? Forgive me I am really asking. So you can't find in the Old Testament where the righteous were taken out, saved from Gods wrath? Two... Noah? Lot? Gods wrath was coming on some cities. And God/angel told Lot "as long as you are here I can do nothing". Lot HAD to be gone before Gods wrath hit the cities. Theres more.. I can't be the only one that found GOD always protects His own. Not about Gods wrath but two about to be burned then a 3rd shows up..none were burned. But God has ALWAYS saved His righteous.

I believe Jesus is the only way to Heaven and I must believe in Him. Thats whats written. I believe Jesus left to make me a home and will come back and get me. I believe a shout a voice a trump from heaven will happen and the dead will rise 1st then we which remain be caught up..... key word Paul used was "WE". Seems Paul had no clue when it would happen. But it will.. why? Its written. Caught up will happen. Its WHEN...

As I read the OT and NT I find the Wrath of God that is coming is not coming on few cities but the WORLD and that there is no place to hide this time. And I will "Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by" For "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness," Key word is "ALL".

Want to read the word Rapture/rapturo get a Latin Bible. Well English was not the 1st language the word was written in. So.. do I believe those that can make an awesome case for POST caught up or pre caught up? No.. since no one has some kind of hidden or more info then anyone else on this planet. I will just take HIM at HIS word. Its a fact were in this house waiting for Him to return. Some are watching right ready...some are not. I am just one of those watching right now today this moment. I was never promised tomorrow. So I am ready now. Sorry.. not debating this. Just my view.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus comes with all who have died, but no where does it say he comes back with the raptured living. Those are the "we who remain."

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

It is just saying them who had not died already, at the time the rapture/resurrection takes place.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!

So by rapture do you mean the secret rapture where God is just going to have his church disappear? Or do you mean rapture as in being caught up as described in 1 Thess 4:16, 17.

 

[Greg Merrill]

Elijah would be a better example than Enoch, for it doesn't say in Gen 5:24 where God took Enoch. Elijah was caught up into heaven, but even that may mean he was caught "heavenward" and still went to Paradise (Luke 16) rather than the Heaven N.T. saints go to since the expulsion of Satan's angels as recorded in Revelation 12:4 and Revelation 12:9. Look up the words "mystery" and "mysteries" in the Bible and you will find out that not everything was revealed to O.T. prophets. Mysteries to the O.T. prophets and the rest of the world are revealed in the New Testament.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Everything one needs to know about Dispensationalist Futurism but was afraid to ask. And for good reason!

Dispensationalism – Grace Online Library

.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking.
So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place.
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Evaluating Premillennialism: Part I – The Problem with Premillennialism by Cornelis P. Venema – Grace Online Library

The common feature of all premillennial teaching is the claim that Christ’s return at the end of the age will take place before the period known as the millennium. Whatever differences exist between Historic and Dispensational Premillennialism — and they are considerable — this teaching is common to them. Though a number of arguments are offered for a premillennial return of Christ, two biblical passages are often cited in support of it. These are 1 Corinthians 15:23—26 and Revelation 20:1—6. The latter is the more important passage because without its teaching some premillennialists acknowledge that 1 Corinthians 15:23—26 would not obviously suggest a return of Christ before the millennium.1..............................
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Evaluating Premillennialism: Part II – Christ’s Return and the Rapture by Cornelis P. Venema – Grace Online Library

No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture.
This feature is its most widely known aspect. Popularized by such best-selling books as Hal Lindsey’s The Late Great Planet Earth, the film The Return, and bumper stickers warning others that in the event of the rapture the vehicle will be without driver and possibly passengers — Dispensationalism has enjoyed a large following among conservative Christians, especially in North America.

The view that has predominated in Dispensationalism is known as pre-tribulational rapturism. As noted previously, the older classical version of Dispensationalism held that the first phase of Christ’s return, his ‘coming’ or ‘parousia’, would precede a seven-year period of tribulation, and that the second phase of Christ’s return, his ‘revelation’ or ‘appearing’, would introduce the millennium or one-thousand-year reign of Christ on the earth. The first phase, Christ’s coming, is the rapture1 of 1 Thessalonians 4:17, an event that represents Christ’s coming ‘for’ his saints in contrast to his subsequent return (the second phase) or coming ‘with’ the saints. Though this view has been somewhat modified in more recent Dispensationalism, it remains far and away the most popular view among dispensationalists to this day. The views known as mid-tribulationism and post-tribulationism, as the terminology suggests, differ as to the timing of the rapture, but have relatively few defenders.2

In the notes of the New Scofield Reference Bible, the rapture is viewed as an event that can occur at any moment.3 There are no events in the biblical timetable for the future that must occur before the first phase of Christ’s return can take place. Christ’s return for his saints will be preceded by the resurrection of all believing saints. After the resurrection of deceased saints, all living believers will be immediately transformed. All of these saints, resurrected and transformed, will then be caught up (raptured) with Christ — whose return to earth will only be partial and for this purpose alone — and meet him in the air. Thus, the church of Jesus Christ will be raptured from the earth and taken to heaven for a period of seven years, the ‘marriage feast of the Lamb’, during which period great tribulation will befall the earth.

While the raptured church enjoys this period of the marriage feast, a number of events will occur upon the earth. A period of tribulation will begin, the latter half of which will be a period of ‘great tribulation’. This fulfils the prophecy of Daniel 9:27. In this latter half of the period of tribulation, the Antichrist will arise, the beast out of the sea, who will impose great cruelties on the earth and pretend to be divine. During this period of great tribulation, the elect of the children of Israel and a great number of the Gentiles will be saved. The end of this period of great tribulation will witness a period of intensified opposition to the people of God. The kings of the earth, the armies of the beast and the false prophet will join forces against the people of God. However, Christ will return with his saints and destroy all of his enemies at the battle of Armageddon. Thereupon, the millennial kingdom, during which Christ will rule upon the earth, will commence.4.......................
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Evaluating Premillennialism: Part III – Israel and the Church by Cornelis P. Venema – Grace Online Library

We have frequently noted that one of the principal tenets of Dispensational Premillennialism is the strict separation between God’s earthly people, Israel, and his heavenly people, the church. It could even be argued that this separation between Israel and the church is the root principle of classical — as distinguished from ‘progressive’ Dispensationalism...........................
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This can also apply so some of those in the "partial preterist" camp............

Evaluating Premillennialism: Part IV – The Hermeneutic of Literalism by Cornelis P. Venema – Grace Online Library

One of the characteristic features of Dispensationalism is its insistence upon a ‘literal’ reading of the Bible. Throughout its history many of its advocates have alleged that alternative millennial views reflect a low view of the Scripture’s authority because they do not follow this hermeneutic.1
Especially when it comes to the prophecies of the Bible that relate to the earthly people of God, Israel, dispensationalists insist that these be read literally.

It is often argued that alternative readings of these prophecies undermine the authority of the Bible by illegitimately spiritualizing them and their promises.

 

[CharismaticLady]

It is just saying them who had not died already, at the time the rapture/resurrection takes place.

I'm confused. Does this mean you believe in the secret rapture years before the actual second coming?

 

[Aussie Pete]

Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!

Why do you need OT "proof"? There are obviously prophets spoken of in the New Testament. It's one of the gifts to the Church. Lord Jesus prophesied about the last days, as did Paul and Peter. The word "rapture" does not appear in the Bible. However, it is the Latinised Greek word that means "caught up". It is similar to the way that "apostle" has been replaced with "missionary".

 

[Douggg]

Jesus comes with all who have died, but no where does it say he comes back with the raptured living. Those are the "we who remain."

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

It is necessary to put it in context of the next two verses.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [it is talking about a resurrection]

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The event in 1Thessalonians4:13-18 is a resurrection of the dead bodies, and the translation of the living, the changing their bodies, to happen almost simultaneously.

In verse 14, it is the souls of them who have died in Jesus up to that time to be brought with Jesus from
heaven, to be reunited with the resurrected bodies. The bodies to be resurrected are currently in a decomposed state here on earth.

It is not the Second Coming of Jesus where every eye will see Him. Differently, it is Jesus coming a second time, which He will appear to them who are looking for him... i.e. the living who are looking for the rapture to take place.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Many persons have embraced Jesus's death on the cross to bear their sins; and of them, those persons, the ones who are looking for him, i.e. for the rapture, He will appear, which those persons will be translated into incorruptible without-sin bodies, unto their salvation from the second death.

The implication is that them who are not looking for the rapture, will not be taken.

 

[Douggg]

I'm confused. Does this mean you believe in the secret rapture years before the actual second coming?

Please see my post #36. The rapture will be years before the actual second coming, yes.

The Second Coming is every eye will see Jesus. Which includes all the evil men of the world, as Jesus comes to end the great tribulation, and to cast the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire, and to destroy the armies that will have gathered to make war on Him. And to end Satan being a terror.

Differently, Jesus appearing a second time, in Hebrews 9:28, it just Christians who are looking for Jesus that He will appear. It is at that time they will be translated into the sinless incorruptible bodies. It is the completion of Salvation. Salvation is comprised of redemption of the soul, and redemption of the bodies.

Timing wise, I think anytime, as long as it is before the beginning of the day of the Lord. I get that from 1Thessalonians5 about the beginning of the day of Lord coming like a thief in night. And the world thinking that it is in a state of "peace and safety".

In 1Thessalonans5:9-11, is the rapture verses again.


9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Now please take another look at Hebrews 9:28 again.

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

So Jesus's appearance the second time in Hebrews 9:28 is just for them who are looking for Him, for it is for salvation from God's wrath...that will come with the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

The actual event that will trigger the beginning of the Day of the Lord will be the Antichrist going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God, in 2Thessalonians2:4, as some point in the middle of the forthcoming 7 years (which is why the rapture will be years before Jesus's Second Coming, as the great tribulation will last 1335 days*).

So right now we cannot pinpoint the day of the rapture, only that it could happen anytime before the Antichrist's act. The rapture may happen pre-70th week as many think, or it may not. But it has to happen before the Antichrist commits the act - which btw is the transgression of desolation, of Daniel 8.

* on my chart I show the great tribulation lasting 1335 days.

 

[CharismaticLady]

It is not the Second Coming of Jesus where every eye will see Him. Differently, it is Jesus coming a second time, which He will appear to them who are looking for him... i.e. the living who are looking for the rapture to take place.

I totally disagree. That is the second coming. Look at Revelation 7. "those who come out of the Great Tribulation". Those are Christians who went into the GT as nominal Christians and had to give their lives as martyrs to stand up and be counted.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Differently, it is Jesus coming a second time,

What do you mean by "a second" time. I know what I believe but what do you believe? Do you mean 1. the rapture and 2. the second coming?

 

[AlexDTX]

Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!

In case you don't know, here is the verse.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The English word "caught" is a translation of the Greek word, harpazō, which means "to seize".

The word "rapture" is from the Latin word, rapturo, that Jerome used when he translated the Greek harpazo, for the Latin Vulgate Bible.

If your question is about the timing of the event, it is when Jesus returns. For most people it won't matter because we will die before that time. It is a stupid and pointless argument.