How can satan be already bound without contradicting Revelation 12?

parousia70

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Again, I didn't. His audience is the Church that applies to all believers from the first century to today.

Great.
Explain exactly HOW it directly applied to the original Disciples standing there.

Which of the things Jesus directly told them they would see, did they actually see come to pass for them as Jesus told them they would?

ALL of them?
Some of them?
None of Them?
 
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parousia70

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Philippians 2:19
But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.

Are you looking for Timothy's SOON arrival TO YOU?

Is this scripture NOT for the WHOLE CHURCH from the first century to today?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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TribulationSigns said:
You are getting yourself too confused with too many "what ifs" and speculations.

Slow down and read the verse:

Rev 11:7
(7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Here is an easy question for you. When will the beast comes out of the bottomless pit? Will it be before or after the 1,260 days testimony of Two Witnesses?
Then we will go from there with 42 months.
I tend to think it's after, though a member here recently managed to convince me there is only one period of time involved, rather than one period following another period. And since there is such a thing as having been right to begin with, I am subject to change my mind back to how I initially understood it. Who knows, maybe you may end up aiding me in doing just that.
I noticed. I can see that they are trying to move the "periods" around to fit their doctrines.
Only the Holy Spirit can aid you with that. I only testify what Scripture says. I will explain a little bit, so please bear with me and consider this.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth...........................
The word "power" is not in the Greek texts....

at least use a correct translation TS, as you are "adding" to the Scripture to fit it into your own doctrines.....

[Please view my Revelation Chapt 11 verse by verse thread:]

Revelation chapt 11 verse study
Oct 15, 2008


3 and I shall be giving to the two witnesses of Me
and they shall be prophesying days a thousand twohundred sixty having been about-cast sackcloths

Greek New Testament - Parallel Greek New Testament by John Hurt

Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
kai dwsw toiV dusin martusin mou
kai profhteusousin hmeraV ciliaV diakosiaV exhkonta peribeblhmenoi sakkouV
Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
kai dwsw toiV dusin martusin mou
kai profhteusousin hmeraV ciliaV diakosiaV exhkonta peribeblhmenoi sakkouV

Byzantine Majority
kai dwsw toiV dusi martusi mou
kai profhteusousin hmeraV ciliaV diakosiaV exhkonta peribeblhmenoi sakkouV
Alexandrian
kai dwsw toiV dusin martusin mou
kai profhteusousin hmeraV ciliaV diakosiaV exhkonta peribeblhmenoi sakkouV
Hort and Westcott
kai dwsw toiV dusin martusin mou

kai profhteusousin hmeraV ciliaV diakosiaV exhkonta peribeblhmenouV sakkouV
===================================
Revelation 11:3 biblehub

New International Version
And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."
Berean Literal Bible
And I will grant to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand two hundred sixty days, clothed in sackcloth
Christian Standard Bible
I will grant my two witnesses authority to prophesy for 1,260 days, dressed in sackcloth."
International Standard Version
I will give my two witnesses who wear sackcloth the authority to prophesy for 1,260 days."
NET Bible
And I will grant my two witnesses authority to prophesy for 1,260 days, dressed in sackcloth.
English Revised Version
And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.
Young's Literal Translation
and I will give to My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy days, a thousand, two hundred, sixty, arrayed with sackcloth;
================================
Revelation 11:3 Commentaries:

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

3. And I will give power] Better, as in the margin, “I will give to My two Witnesses that they may prophesy”—the Hebrew idiom being literally reproduced.

my two witnesses] The traditional view of these, dating from the second century, is that they are Enoch and Elijah—the two prophets who, having (for a time) finished their work on earth, have left it without death: but who, since “it is appointed for all men once to die,” will, as is here revealed, come on earth again, to prophesy and suffer death in the days of Antichrist.

As to Elijah, there seems to be little doubt that this view is true. The prophecy of Malachi 4:5 has indeed received a fulfilment in the mission of the Baptist (St Luke 1:17). But St Matthew 17:11-12 perhaps implies that this fulfilment is not the final one—especially when compared with St John 1:21. Really the plain sense of these passages seems to be, that Elijah will actually be sent before the second Coming of Christ, as one in his spirit and power was before His first.

But the personality of his colleague is more doubtful. Of Enoch we know so little, that internal evidence hardly applies either way: all we can say is, that he was recognised by popular Jewish belief as a seer of apocalypses, and that his character as a prophet and preacher of repentance is recognised by St Jude. This harmonises well enough with his being intended: but the internal evidence of Scripture itself points rather to Moses and Elijah being the two witnesses. Their names are coupled in the prophecy of Malachi 4:4-5, as well as in the history of the Transfiguration: and Revelation 11:6 ascribes to these prophets the plague actually inflicted by Moses, as well as that by Elijah. This modification of the traditional view was first suggested by the abbot Joachim, the great mediæval commentator on this book; but it has found wide acceptance in modern times. It may be observed, that as Elijah is doubtless still living a supernatural life in the body, so Moses must have been raised to such life for the Transfiguration: but he is not necessarily incapable of death, any more than were Lazarus and others who have been raised from the dead.

1260 days] See on Revelation 11:2.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Philippians 2:19
But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.

Are you looking for Timothy's SOON arrival TO YOU?

Is this scripture NOT for the WHOLE CHURCH from the first century to today?

Can you at least try to check with the context first?

Php 2:12-13
(12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
(13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Who was Paul's beloved? Was his message to the first-century only that does not apply to us today? Or was the message for the whole church? Isn't God also works in us to do His will as well? :)
 
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parousia70

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Can you at least try to check with the context first?

Php 2:12-13
(12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
(13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Who was Paul's beloved? Was his message to the first-century only that does not apply to us today? Or was the message for the whole church? Isn't God also works in us to do His will as well? :)

Thanks for proving my point!

CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT!

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; ....

9 “
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

...15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’


You
, Tribsigns, have presented NO scritptural instruction that supports your need to REMOVE the disciples from direct application of Jesus' specific instructions TO THEM above.
 
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TribulationSigns

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New International Version
And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."
Berean Literal Bible
And I will grant to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand two hundred sixty days, clothed in sackcloth
Christian Standard Bible
I will grant my two witnesses authority to prophesy for 1,260 days, dressed in sackcloth."
International Standard Version
I will give my two witnesses who wear sackcloth the authority to prophesy for 1,260 days."
NET Bible
And I will grant my two witnesses authority to prophesy for 1,260 days, dressed in sackcloth.
English Revised Version
And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.
Young's Literal Translation
and I will give to My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy days, a thousand, two hundred, sixty, arrayed with sackcloth;

Chuckle. Funny! Can't you see it?

Read the above verses again. Notice what did God give or grant His Two Witnesses with WHAT? Some did not say a word. Even a few verses you quoted said "authority."

Regardless, didn't God gave His witnesses the authority to preach His Word to the world?

:)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Chuckle. Funny! Can't you see it?

Read the above verses again. Notice what did God give or grant His Two Witnesses with WHAT? Even a few verses you quoted said "authority."

Regardless, didn't God gave His witnesses the authority to preach His Word to the world?

:)
You added to the texts............nuf said
 
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TribulationSigns

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Thanks for proving my point!

CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT!

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; ....

9 “
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

...15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’


You
, Tribsigns, have presented NO scritptural instruction that supports your need to REMOVE the disciples from direct application of Jesus' specific instructions TO THEM above.

The disciples were part of the church. They were anointed by the Holy Ghost at Pentecost and have become a part of the New Testament congregation. Peter declared this, Acts 2:14-41. All of this took place long before 70AD. So yes, Christ was speaking to His Church through them. You got the timing of Christ's Olivet Discourse prophecy all wrong because you believe that it only applies to the days of the disciples.

And you did not answer whether the Temple and the City were considered holy in 70AD despite the fact that God has anointed His New Testament congregation at Pentecost with His original disciples? :)
 
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TribulationSigns

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You added to the texts............nuf said

LOL. I was not the one who added "authority" in your favorite modern bible translations. The authority also means power. Deal with it.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus

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Glad you agreed with it.
I just agreed you added a word to the sacred texts.......

Rev 22:18
For[fn] I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book:
If anyone adds to these things, God will add[fn] to him the plagues that are written in this book;
Rev 22:19
and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away[fn] his part from the Book[fn] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
 
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TribulationSigns

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You misunderstood. I said that I was not the one who inserted "authority" in the modern translations that YOU quoted. So you need to deal with it.

Anyway...

Rev 11:3
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

The word "power" is not in the Greek text, which simply reads, "I will give to my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy. . . ." Paraphrased, God says, "I will grant to My Two Witnesses the right or power of prophesying during the time specified." Translators must add a word like "power," "privilege," "opportunity," "boldness", or "authority" to complete the sense in English.

The meaning is not that God would send two witnesses to prophesy, but that they are existing witnesses who receive additional gifts and powers. During that time God will give them the privilege and the strength to proclaim the truth that they will be commissioned to communicate as His "witnesses" to mankind.

The phrase "and they will prophecy" does not necessarily mean that they would predict future events, but that they would proclaim the truth as God had revealed it. The indication here is that the Two Witnesses would publicly preach or maintain the truth before the world.

Enough said.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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You misunderstood. I said that I was not the one who inserted "authority" in the modern translations that YOU quoted. So you need to deal with it.

Anyway...

Rev 11:3
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

The word "power" is not in the Greek text, which simply reads, "I will give to my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy. . . ." Paraphrased, God says, "I will grant to My Two Witnesses the right or power of prophesying during the time specified." Translators must add a word like "power," "privilege," "opportunity," "boldness", or "authority" to complete the sense in English.

The meaning is not that God would send two witnesses to prophesy, but that they are existing witnesses who receive additional gifts and powers. During that time God will give them the privilege and the strength to proclaim the truth that they will be commissioned to communicate as His "witnesses" to mankind.

The phrase "and they will prophecy" does not necessarily mean that they would predict future events, but that they would proclaim the truth as God had revealed it. The indication here is that the Two Witnesses would publicly preach or maintain the truth before the world.

Enough said.
And where did they prophecy?

[from another thread]

TribulationSigns said:
A question for you, Little Lamb, was the physical city of Jerusalem considered holy by God in 70AD despite after the Biblical fact that God rent the veil in the temple, (Mark 15:37–38) and that Christ already declared the city desolate when He spoke it, (Matthew 23:37-38).
Verses where the phrase "holy city" is used:
It appears there is both an OC "earthly carnal" holy city and a NC "spiritual" holy city?...........

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

"holy city"
occurs 10 times in 10 verses in the NKJV.

New Testament:

Mat 4:5
Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple,
Mat 27:53
and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Revelation 11
2 And the Court without of the Sanctuary, be Casting Out!! out-side, and thou mayest not be measuring her, that she was given to the Nations/eqnesin <1484>
and the Holy City they shall be trampling forty two months

Rev 21:2
Then I, John,[fn] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 22:19
and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away[fn] his part from the Book[fn] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
=================================
The Old Testament:

Neh 11:1
Now the leaders of the people dwelt at Jerusalem; the rest of the people cast lots to bring one out of ten to dwell in Jerusalem, the holy city, and nine-tenths were to dwell in other cities.
Neh 11:18
All the Levites in the holy city were two hundred and eighty-four.

Isa 48:2
For they call themselves after the holy city,
And lean on the God of Israel;
The LORD of hosts is His name:
Isa 52:1
Awake, awake!
Put on your strength, O Zion;
Put on your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city!
For the uncircumcised and the unclean
Shall no longer come to you.

Dan 9:24
“Seventy weeks[fn] are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of[fn] sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
 
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And where did they prophecy?

Didn't you bother to check with Scripture to find out?

Act 1:6-8
(6) When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
(7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

This is where. Got a problem with this?

No wait, are you and parousia70 going to move earth and heaven that the "ye" was only applied to the first-century audience. Yet didn't we also received the Holy Spirit as well to become His witnesses in America which is pretty far from Jerusalem and Judaea. It was because Christ was speaking to us, His Church! So much for your assumption on who the "ye" and "you" are in Matthew 24.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Didn't you bother to check with Scripture to find out?
Act 1:6-8
(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

This is where. Got a problem with this?
That was said pre 70ad

[Please visit my 70ad Jerusalem/Temple discourse thread.......]

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>
Mark 13:7
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled for is binding to be becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>
Luke 21:9
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tumults<181>, no may be being frightened<4422>, for is binding these to be becoming,
but not immediately the End<5056>

Matthew 24:16
then those in
the Judea let them be fleeing! into the mountains
Mark 13:14
Whenever yet ye may be seeing see the abomination of the desolation<2050>, the one being declared by Daniel the prophet, standing where it is not binding, (whoever is reading let him be understanding!)
Then those in the Judea, let them be fleeing into the mountains
Luke 21:21
then those in the Judea, let them be fleeing
into the mountains;
and those in midst of Her, let them be coming out to country;
and those in the countries placed, let them not come be entering into Her
22 That days of vengeance these are, of the to be fulfilled<4130> all the having been written 23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath upon this people.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
===========================

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

2 Corin 6:17
wherefore come-forth out of midst of them! and be being separated! is saying Lord

Revelation 18:4
And I hear another Voice out of the heaven saying "come forth! out of Her My people......................

 
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TribulationSigns

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That was said pre 70ad

[patting on your back] Sure...sure... and by the way, you still got the 'war and rumors of wars" part with your 70AD Roman military fantasy all wrong. Your idea of the old covenant had to end with the physical destruction of 70AD (instead of the Cross) in order for the church to go out into the world as witnesses are unbiblical, to begin with anyway! You got timing all wrong. We have gone through this before. ;)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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[patting on your back] Sure...sure... and by the way, you still got the 'war and rumors of wars" part with your 70AD Roman military fantasy all wrong. Your idea of the old covenant had to end with the physical destruction of 70AD (instead of the Cross) in order for the church to go out into the world as witnesses are unbiblical, to begin with anyway! You got timing all wrong. We have gone through this before. ;)
The first part of Isaiah 61:2 was fulfilled during the preaching of the Gospel by Jesus and the Apostles up to the Cross:

"DAYS OF VENGEANCE" Isaiah 61:2 and Luke 21:22 Revelation

Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
And the day of vengeance<5359> of our 'Elohiym, To comfort all mourners.

Luke 4:
17 the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. Unrolling it, He found the place where it was written:
21 and He began by saying,
“Today this Scripture is fulfilled<4137> in your hearing.”

Mat 27:35
Then they crucified Him, and divided His garments, casting lots,[fn] that it might be fulfilled<4137> which was spoken by the prophet:
“They divided My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots.”[fn]
===================
The 2nd part of Isa 61:2 was fulfilled in 70ad as shown in Luke 21 and Revelation 19:

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Luke 21:
22 That days of vengeance<1557> these are, of the to be fulfilled<4130> all the having been written
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath<3709> upon this people.

Revelation 19:2
“For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication;
and He has avenged <1556> on her the blood of His servants shed by her.”
=============================
Matthew 24 Mount of Olives and Titus's 10th Legion on Mt Olives 70ad

 
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The first part of Isaiah 61:2 was fulfilled during the preaching of the Gospel by Jesus and the Apostles up to the Cross:

[Contiune patting on your back with a smile] :)
 
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