What was God's intent in Rev. chapters 4 & 5?

[iamlamad]

The dead in Christ and them who are alive will have been caught up to heaven in the rapture/resurrection to take place before the Day of the Lord begins in the middle part of the 7 years.

During the second half of the 7 years, in heaven, all will stand before Jesus for what they have done for the cause of Christ and will receive rewards accordingly, while here on the earth the great tribulation takes place and Satan and his kingdom and the kingdom of the beast is being dismantled.

At the end of the 7 years, at the end of the great tribulation, in Revelation 19, the Kingdom of God is adorned with the righteousness of the saints - who will return with Jesus, at the completion of making the kingdoms of this world the Kingdoms of God and His Christ.

The Kingdom of God brought down from heaven by Jesus with the saints becomes the ruling kingdom over all earthly kingdoms.

Wow. Not bad, but one mistake. Otherwise a good post.

The Day of the Lord does not start in the MIDDLE, it starts before ANY of the 70th week starts. It is truth, but you will argue because you don't believe it.

 

[iamlamad]

What about it being the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great? What does any of that have to do with what you are referring to, especially if the time of the dead is mid 70th week? I don't get it?

Plus there is the following as well to consider. In particular, what I have underlined.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail .

Do you really think God would have great hail in the throne room of heaven? What they were seeing was a prophetic vision of what was soon to come on earth.

When you read something that is being SAID from the 24 elders, It is probably PROPHECY. Does it happen later in the book? For example, some of the dead are judged after the 1000 years. Therefore the 24 elders are prophecying of FUTURE events. The dead is NOT being judged at the midpoint of the week.

 

[iamlamad]

The two witnesses ascend on day 1263.5 of the 7 years. The 7th trumpet sounds. It is the signal for Michael and his angels to kick Satan and his angels down to earth, as God starts dismantling Satan's kingdom.

It is the process of the kingdoms of the world becoming the kingdoms of God and his Christ. Which includes dismantling the beast's kingdom as well.

The placement of the 7th trumpet is not at the end of the 7 years. It is in the middle of the 7 years - and the 7 vials take place during the 42 months of the beast's reign - most toward the end of it as the intensity of the judgments increases.

You have it very very wrong. The two witnesses DESCEND on the 1256.5 day of the first half of the week, then testify for the second half. In other words, when John first SAW them is when they first showed up. They will ASCEND at the 7th vial that ends the week when ALL of the Old Testament saints rise - on "the last day."

You have one thing right: Michael's signal to go to battle with the Devil is the 7th trumpet.

 

[Douggg]

They are suffering. At least those in the kingdom of the Beast are suffering; perhaps the entire world is suffering. However, the armies of the world are still going to be able to travel and get themselves to Israel.

What will the world be doing during the 7th vial?

What does the text say the world is doing in the sixth vial? They are gathering their armies together at Armageddon to make war on Jesus. They are not exchanging presents over the death of the two witnesses.

Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
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At the 7th vial, people will be dying, as the greatest earthquake in the world flattens cities, mountains, islands. And a great hail storm from heaven will kill many.

 

[iamlamad]

And this is my position as well. The 7th trumpet is when the vials are poured out. As to the seals though, they are merely a chronological outline of events, where the 6th seal is at the tailend of these events. You somehow think the events recorded in the 6th seal, for example, have already taken place before the first trumpet sounds. Pretribbers in particular typically reason it wrong like that. Just because the 6th seal is mentioned prior to that of any trumpets, that alone doesn't prove the seal events chronologically precede the first trumpet. We have to first try and logically reason through these things in order to determine whether or not any of the seal events can precede the first trumpet and everything else that follows it.

I would not say it that way: the 7th trumpet sounds for seconds and then is finished. But the 7th trumpet will trigger EVENTS that will last. Some UNKNOWN time after the 7th trumpet the vials will be poured out.

You still don't get it. The seals are sealing the BOOK. Once the seals are all opened then the BOOK is opened and the seals are forgotten. John did not write it, but you can bet it is truth: when the 7th seal is opened the BOOK gets opened. the book is the 70th week! In other words, if you could get that book and begin reading you would read about the trumpet judgments in the first part. As you roll the scroll, you would come to vials in the last half of the scroll.

What you are missing: it is absolutely impossible for anything INSIDE the book to happen in one of the seals. Why? Because the book cannot be opened to start the trumpets until ALL 7 seals are opened.

Most people completely miss the book. but it is a big part of Revelation.

 

[iamlamad]

I wrote them murdered during the great tribulation. They are killed for not worshipping the beast nor his image. It is detailed out in Revelation 14:9-13.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
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They are the ones in the 5th seal.
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The murderers and the ones on their side, opposing God in Revelation 6:15-17 are alive at the time in those verses, when they in terror want to hide and die from the rocks falling on them, rather than face Jesus. Read the text. It is obvious.

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

lamad, how would the above verses apply to Stephen for example? Them who stoned Stephen are long dead. Differently, them who murder the great tribulation saints will be still be alive and on earth doing evil. And those evil men are the ones reacting, to the appearance of Jesus before the throne of God in Revelation 6:15-17.
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All of the events of the 7 seals are taking place over the course of 7 years.

You are all wet here. John shows the beheaded people BEGINNING to show up in chapter 15. You on the other hand are trying to force them into the 5th seal. It seems you totally IGNORE John's timing and chronology.

TRUTH: They are NOT GOING to enforce the mark (start beheading people for refusing the mark) until AFTER God gives His warning in chapter 14.

Yet, you in your great wisdom have the beheaded being beheaded and place in the 5th seal LONG before God gives His warning not to take the mark. Sorry, but I am going to believe God, not you.

Your timing is so messed up it is pathetic. Those who murder (behead) the trib saints will be killed during the vials, during the battle of Armageddon and then at the sheep and goat judgment. WHY? Because no beheaded will show up in heaven until chapter 15.

Those at the 6th seal will be scared out of their wits before the 70th week even begins.

 

[Douggg]

You have one thing right: Michael's signal to go to battle with the Devil is the 7th trumpet.

If Michael goes to battle with Satan at the 7th trumpet. And the 7th trumpet follows the death of the two witnesses. And if Satan has a time, times,half time left after his losing battle again Michael.

Then how can the two witnesses' 1260 days be in the second half of the seven years, as your are claiming?


the two witnesses's 1260 days
then the 7th trumpet
Michael battles Satan
a time, times, haft time on earth is left to Satan.

 

[DavidPT]

I would not say it that way: the 7th trumpet sounds for seconds and then is finished. But the 7th trumpet will trigger EVENTS that will last. Some UNKNOWN time after the 7th trumpet the vials will be poured out.

You still don't get it. The seals are sealing the BOOK. Once the seals are all opened then the BOOK is opened and the seals are forgotten. John did not write it, but you can bet it is truth: when the 7th seal is opened the BOOK gets opened. the book is the 70th week! In other words, if you could get that book and begin reading you would read about the trumpet judgments in the first part. As you roll the scroll, you would come to vials in the last half of the scroll.

What you are missing: it is absolutely impossible for anything INSIDE the book to happen in one of the seals. Why? Because the book cannot be opened to start the trumpets until ALL 7 seals are opened.

Most people completely miss the book. but it is a big part of Revelation.

Assuming the book is the 70th week like you suggest, the 70th week has a beginning, a midpoint, and an ending. This obviously means there are events that fit the beginning unto the midpoint, and fit the midpoint unto the ending.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This part----And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week----this applies to both halves of the week. This part---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate----this applies to the midpoint unto the ending.


What then is missing here? Events that occur from the beginning unto the midpoint. And since you state the book is the 70th week, that should mean you have the events that pertain to the beginning unto the midpoint that you can enlighten us with. So do you then? Can you provide the events that takes place from the beginning unto the midpoint?

 

[Douggg]

You are all wet here. John shows the beheaded people BEGINNING to show up in chapter 15. You on the other hand are trying to force them into the 5th seal. It seems you totally IGNORE John's timing and chronology.

You have misinterpretated the events in the seals as historic, and not the 7year 70th week.

Revelation 6 gives an overview of events of the 7 years to take place from the start to the end, when Jesus appears before the throne of God as the Lamb of God, Revelation 6:12-17.

Them in Revelation 6:9-11 are the martyred great tribulation saints. It is impossible for them to be the martyred historical saints, because the murders of the historical saints are dead and in the grave.

Differently, them in Revelation 6:15-17 are living, on earth, reacting to Jesus' appearance in heaven as the Lamb of God - fearing the day of the wrath of the Lamb has come.

 

[Douggg]

Those at the 6th seal will be scared out of their wits before the 70th week even begins.

But not scared out of their wits enough to murder the saints, force everyone to worship the beast, and his image, to make merry and celebrate the death of the two witnesses, during the 70th week?

How about this instead. The 6th seal is at the end of the 70th week, and they are scared out of their wits because all the evil they have done in opposing God and Jesus during the 70th week? And the time of the wrath of the Lamb has come to execute judgment on them for all their evil deeds.

 

[DavidPT]

But not scared out of their wits enough to murder the saints, force everyone to worship the beast, and his image, to make merry and celebrate the death of the two witnesses ?

Something just crossed my mind.


Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Here we see the kings of the earth hiding themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains, etc, while in the passage below the kings of the earth are seen out in the open in plain site, thus not hiding themselves at all.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Then we see this in verse 21.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

The remnant would have to include the kings of the earth. At this point, as of Revelation 19:19, there is no way they eventually hide themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains, if the next thing that happens to them is what is recorded in verse 21. This seems to tell us that the events recorded in Revelation 6:15-16 have to precede the events recorded in Revelation 19:19 and Revelation 19:21. So when do these come out of hiding then, in order to be seen fulfilling Revelation 19:19?

 

[Douggg]

So when do these come out of hiding then, in order to be seen fulfilling Revelation 19:19?

They come out of hiding when the beast, the false prophet, and the dragon (Satan) convince the kings of the earth their only hope of survival is to assemble their armies to make war against Jesus.

Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

The kings of the earth will already have their armies in the middle east, which are the attacks on the beast in Daniel 11:40-45. Which the drying up of the Euphrates in Revelation 16:12 facilitates for the armies of the kings of the east with their 200,000,000 strong army to flood across the dried up Euphrates to join in. (Daniel 11:44)

While they are battling the beast - that is when unexpectedly to them, like a thief, the events of the 6th seal involving the parting of the second heaven, the cosmos, Jesus appears - which terrorizes all of the kings of the earth.

So faced with impending doom, the beast, the false prophet, the dragon (Satan) convince them to ban under the beast's leadership and assemble their armies as Armageddon.

And in Zechariah 14, part of their plan is to go down to Jerusalem and take the Jews their as hostages. Thinking that will stop Jesus from executing judgment on them. It doesn't work of course, as Jesus provides a means of escape for the captive Jews. Zechariah 14:4-5.
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The sixth seal parting of the cosmos - will take place on...day 2475 of the 7 years. Leaving 45 days for the armies to assemble themselves at Armageddon, and to take Jerusalem as hostage.

Here is where I get that day 2475.

2520 days in the seven years.
count back 1335 days to the day when the AOD is setup to get day 1185.

Then count forward from day 1185 - 1290 days to get day 2475.

The 1335 days and the 1290 days are from Daniel 12:11-12.

 

[Douggg]

The remnant would have to include the kings of the earth. At this point, as of Revelation 19:19, there is no way they eventually hide themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains, if the next thing that happens to them is what is recorded in verse 21. This seems to tell us that the events recorded in Revelation 6:15-16 have to precede the events recorded in Revelation 19:19 and Revelation 19:21. So when do these come out of hiding then, in order to be seen fulfilling Revelation 19:19?

David, I would like to note to my previous explanation is that Revelation 19:19 and Revelation 19:17-18 correspond to the Ezekiel 39:17-20. Which is the Armageddon feast on the dead bodies.

And also corresponds to Psalms 110.

1 (A Psalm of David.) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

5 The Lord [David's Lord Jesus] at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
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Sitting at God's right hand - is a metaphor for being the righteous One of God. Footstool is a metaphor as well.
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After Ezekiel 39:17-20, Jesus in the text, Himself is speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29...having just judged the heathen, i.e. the armies gathered to make war on him. And has returned to earth, and is reflecting back over the past 2000 years of why the house of Israel went into captivity for rejecting him as their King. But have come to accept Him, knowing that He is the Lord their God.

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

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So from Ezekiel 38-39, we can know with 100% certainty the condensed course of events for the end times is...

1. Gog/Magog (Ezekiel 39:4)
2. then the seven years (Ezekiel 39:9)
3. ending with Armageddon and Jesus's return (Ezekiel 39:17-29)

And the seals in Revelation 6 gives the over-view of the seven years.

 

[Douggg]

@iamlamad said: ↑

You are sidestepping because you have come up with no reason why John wrote that no man was found worthy.


I ask again... Why isn't any man worthy?

 

[iamlamad]

If Michael goes to battle with Satan at the 7th trumpet. And the 7th trumpet follows the death of the two witnesses. And if Satan has a time, times,half time left after his losing battle again Michael.

Then how can the two witnesses' 1260 days be in the second half of the seven years, as your are claiming?


the two witnesses's 1260 days
then the 7th trumpet
Michael battles Satan
a time, times, haft time on earth is left to Satan.

If Michael goes to battle with Satan at the 7th trumpet. TRUE
the 7th trumpet follows the death of the two witnesses. NOT TRUE

You assume the 7th trumpet follows the death because it is written after.
I don't believe it. Verses 11:4 through 11:13 are a parenthesis and not in John's chronology. I have written this many times: it seems you just don't believe it.

Tell me, what comes first in the passing of time: The mark of the Beast as shown in Rev. 13 - or God's warning about the mark in Rev. 14?

 

[iamlamad]

You have misinterpretated the events in the seals as historic, and not the 7year 70th week.

Revelation 6 gives an overview of events of the 7 years to take place from the start to the end, when Jesus appears before the throne of God as the Lamb of God, Revelation 6:12-17.

Them in Revelation 6:9-11 are the martyred great tribulation saints. It is impossible for them to be the martyred historical saints, because the murders of the historical saints are dead and in the grave.

Differently, them in Revelation 6:15-17 are living, on earth, reacting to Jesus' appearance in heaven as the Lamb of God - fearing the day of the wrath of the Lamb has come.

Revelation 6 gives an overview of events of the 7 years to take place from the start to the end
Since this is what you believe, we will always disagree.

But what you believe here is simply impossible because the seals are only sealing a document that when opened reveals the 70th week. They cannot therefore be a preview. They are events make legal by the opening of each seal.
(It would be illegal for the events of seal 1 to take place before seal 1 is officially opened.)

 

[iamlamad]

Assuming the book is the 70th week like you suggest, the 70th week has a beginning, a midpoint, and an ending. This obviously means there are events that fit the beginning unto the midpoint, and fit the midpoint unto the ending.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This part----And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week----this applies to both halves of the week. This part---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate----this applies to the midpoint unto the ending.


What then is missing here? Events that occur from the beginning unto the midpoint. And since you state the book is the 70th week, that should mean you have the events that pertain to the beginning unto the midpoint that you can enlighten us with. So do you then? Can you provide the events that takes place from the beginning unto the midpoint?

Very logical deductions here, David. Good job. It is a fact, Daniel did not cover events in the first half unless in Dan. 11. Jesus did not cover events in the first half either. Only John does, and then one can discover only with very careful study and help from the Holy Spirit.

I have written this many times: from Jesus speaking to me I know the 70th week is "marked" by 7's. I first found the midpoint marked by the 7th trumpet. I rushed in my bible to the 7th vial and read, "it is done." I then KNEW I had found the entire 70th week "clearly marked." So I rushed in my bible quickly to the 7th seal to confirm, and that is the 30 minutes of silence.

What events take place after the 7th seal and before the 7th trumpet? Of course, the first 6 trumpets. They are the first half of the week. No GT, NO beheadings by the Antichrist BEast - those things are future. No seals because they are now history. It will be the first 6 trumpet judgments.

 

[iamlamad]

@iamlamad said: ↑

You are sidestepping because you have come up with no reason why John wrote that no man was found worthy.


I ask again... Why isn't any man worthy?

I have answered it over and over, and you don't like the real answer:
It is because at that moment in time when the angel asked the question, Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to BECOME worthy. Did you notice the word, He "prevailed" to become worthy. What did He prevail over? Death. It fits the context of the entire passage.

However,, YOU should have answered it because you disagree with my answer.

 

[Douggg]

I have answered it over and over, and you don't like the real answer:
It is because at that moment in time when the angel asked the question, Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to BECOME worthy. Did you notice the word, He "prevailed" to become worthy. What did He prevail over? Death. It fits the context of the entire passage.

However,, YOU should have answered it because you disagree with my answer.

I am not asking why Jesus is worthy. I am asking you why isn't any man is worthy?

 

[iamlamad]

But not scared out of their wits enough to murder the saints, force everyone to worship the beast, and his image, to make merry and celebrate the death of the two witnesses, during the 70th week?

How about this instead. The 6th seal is at the end of the 70th week, and they are scared out of their wits because all the evil they have done in opposing God and Jesus during the 70th week? And the time of the wrath of the Lamb has come to execute judgment on them for all their evil deeds.

When a terrible event happens, such as the bad earthquake in California where double decker highways collapsed, within a month many people moved out of California. But a year later all was forgotten. People move into California.

The bad earthquake at the 6th seal will soon be forgotten. Life moves on.
What will happen after the 6th trumpet that kills 1/3 of earth's population? People will certainly run scared - but it will not last. People get over things as time moves on.

When will you EVER stop trying to rearrange Revelation? ANY theory that must rearrange will be proven wrong. Period and end of story.

You are trying to read the book before it is opened. It don't work. Revelation is going to play out exactly as it is written! Events in one chapter will certainly take place AFTER events of previous chapters and BEFORE events of later chapters - with minor exceptions in parentheses.