What was God's intent in Rev. chapters 4 & 5?

[iamlamad]

I am not asking why Jesus is worthy. I am asking you why no man is worthy?

How many men do you figure will become Redeemer's of mankind? I think ONLY ONE. In other words, in all of time, and before time, and after time, ONLY ONE man will ever be "the redeemer."
Try answering my question: Why was John weeping much?

 

[Douggg]

How many men do you figure will become Redeemer's of mankind? I think ONLY ONE. In other words, in all of time, and before time, and after time, ONLY ONE man will ever be "the redeemer."
Try answering my question: Why was John weeping much?

Why can't any man be the redeemer?

 

[Douggg]

They are events make legal by the opening of each seal.
(It would be illegal for the events of seal 1 to take place before seal 1 is officially opened.)

illegal? Someone is going to put God in jail if there were not seals on the book?

 

[Douggg]

If Michael goes to battle with Satan at the 7th trumpet. TRUE
the 7th trumpet follows the death of the two witnesses. NOT TRUE

You assume the 7th trumpet follows the death because it is written after.
I don't believe it. Verses 11:4 through 11:13 are a parenthesis and not in John's chronology. I have written this many times: it seems you just don't believe it.

John's chronology? John did not state his view of a timeline. He recorded what he saw and was told in the order it was presented to him.

You are deviating from your linear view of Revelation.

Tell me, what comes first in the passing of time: The mark of the Beast as shown in Rev. 13 - or God's warning about the mark in Rev. 14?

Seeing that we can read in Revelation right now, the warning not to take the mark - and that the mark of the beast has not be implemented yet. The answer is obvious.

 

[Douggg]

When a terrible event happens, such as the bad earthquake in California where double decker highways collapsed, within a month many people moved out of California. But a year later all was forgotten. People move into California.

The bad earthquake at the 6th seal will soon be forgotten. Life moves on.

You are equating the cosmos parting and Jesus the Lamb of God appearing before the throne of God in heaven with an earthquake in in California? Something quickly forgotten?

 

[iamlamad]

Why can't any man be the redeemer?

Are you asking to learn, or asking so you can prove me in error?

 

[Douggg]

Are you asking to learn, or asking so you can prove me in error?

I am asking you - for you to admit that no man is worthy because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

No man was worthy to open the seals because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. There was no search for some man worthy. It was an admission that no man was worthy to open the seals.

 

[iamlamad]

I am asking you - for you to admit that no man is worthy because all have sinned and come short of the glory God.

Ah! I get it: you just need me to agree with you. Got it! Sory, I cannot admit to something not true.

You are mistaken, ONE man never sinned. We can only guess the Angel was looking for that ONE man. Why would an angel be on a hopeless search?
If we read ahead, we see that He was someone who had "prevailed" over something. If we read further ahead we read: "for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God..." So the angel was looking for the "redeemer." Angels are smart: perhaps He knew that one day someone would answer his call.

You still have not come up with WHY that "one man" was not found. I know why - but you don't believe it - yet.

 

[iamlamad]

You are equating the cosmos parting and Jesus the Lamb of God appearing before the throne of God in heaven with an earthquake in in California? Something quickly forgotten?

At that point in time, Jesus has just come for His Bride and has returned to heaven with His bride.

"hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:" [Father God on the throne, and Jesus probably at His right hand - but perhaps with the Bride.]

It is a strange thing for them to say, for no one has seen the face of the Father.

 

[iamlamad]

John's chronology? John did not state his view of a timeline. He recorded what he saw and was told in the order it was presented to him.

You are deviating from your linear view of Revelation.

Seeing that we can read in Revelation right now, the warning not to take the mark - and that the mark of the beast has not be implemented yet. The answer is obvious.

Why is it you always seem to side step? Yes, they are future, but one is written in the book before the other: so I ask again, WHEN they happen, which will happen first? God's warning or the actual mark?

Sorry, I don't deviate. If you think I have, explain.

 

[iamlamad]

illegal? Someone is going to put God in jail if there were not seals on the book?

Say what you want: this is a legal document created in heaven. GOD could not send out the church until that first seal was opened. You might say God limited Himself when He created this book and put the seals on it.

There. Now you have even more ammunition!

 

[iamlamad]

Why can't any man be the redeemer?

What? You want more ammo so you can return fire? I may be slow but I am catching on!

You know the answer:
ONLY ONE MAN EVER has been born of a virgin. All other men are born of MAN and woman. Only one man ever has Father God as His Father.
I'll go a step further: only one man has ever been born of woman that was not born with a fallen human nature.

 

[Douggg]

Ah! I get it: you just need me to agree with you. Got it! Sory, I cannot admit to something not true.

You are mistaken, ONE man never sinned. We can only guess the Angel was looking for that ONE man. Why would an angel be on a hopeless search?
If we read ahead, we see that He was someone who had "prevailed" over something. If we read further ahead we read: "for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God..." So the angel was looking for the "redeemer." Angels are smart: perhaps He knew that one day someone would answer his call.

You still have not come up with WHY that "one man" was not found. I know why - but you don't believe it - yet.

It was a rhetorical question by the angel. He knew that Jesus was worthy from Jesus being worshipped in Revelation 4:11 that Jesus was worthy.

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

[iamlamad]

It was a rhetorical question by the angel. He knew that Jesus was worthy from Jesus being worshipped in Revelation 4:11 that Jesus was worthy.

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

That is guessing. And you are always on my case?
How do we know He was anywhere near John when God was showing John events in chapter 4?

I disagree it was rhetorical. He was seriously looking for someone worthy.

 

[Douggg]

What? You want more ammo so you can return fire? I may be slow but I am catching on!

You know the answer:
ONLY ONE MAN EVER has been born of a virgin. All other men are born of MAN and woman. Only one man ever has Father God as His Father.
I'll go a step further: only one man has ever been born of woman that was not born with a fallen human nature.

So all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God, right?

 

[Douggg]

That is guessing. And you are always on my case?
How do we know He was anywhere near John when God was showing John events in chapter 4?

I disagree it was rhetorical. He was seriously looking for someone worthy.

I am on your case because you are promoting that the events of the seals are historic. And to support that view, you are reading into the text that Jesus's appearance in the midst of the 24 elders and John - was because Jesus had just ascended from earth - as being a proof for your interpretation of the seals being historic... rather than about the 7 years of the 70th week.

 

[iamlamad]

So all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God, right?

Absolutely not! ONE MAN did not sin but left His glory for a season.

When Paul wrote to the Romans, He was not including Jesus in "all men."

 

[iamlamad]

I am on your case because you are promoting that the events of the seals are historic. And to support that view, you are reading into the text that Jesus's appearance in the midst of the 24 elders and John - was because Jesus had just ascended from earth - as being a proof for your interpretation of the seals being historic... rather than about the 7 years of the 70th week.

And I am on your case because they ARE historic!

You and millions of others only imagine the seals are part of the 70th week. The very text disagrees with you.

Let's rehearse: over a dozen verses tell us Jesus ascended to be at the right hand of the Father - and Stephen SAW Him there.

Yet, when John saw the Father on the throne, NO ONE seen at His right hand.
the Holy Spirit seen in the throne room by John around 95 AD.

(Someone in the throne room SAW Jesus walk right into the Father and the two become one, then saw Him walk right out again. He asked a dumb question to his angel with him there: "I see Jesus, and I see the Father, but where is the Holy Spirit?" The angel said, "He is on the earth!")

A search for one worthy to open the seals, yet a search that ended in failure.

God's plan here was to show us something you don't want to see.

WHY did John not see Jesus at the right hand of the Father?
WHY was the Holy Spirit still there?
WHY was "no man found worthy?"

All three questions are answers with one word TIMING.

 

[Douggg]

Absolutely not! ONE MAN did not sin but left His glory for a season.

When Paul wrote to the Romans, He was not including Jesus in "all men."

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Of course Paul was not referring to Jesus. Jesus was not of Adam's seed.

 

[Douggg]

WHY did John not see Jesus at the right hand of the Father?
WHY was the Holy Spirit still there?
WHY was "no man found worthy?"

All three questions are answers with one word TIMING.

Sitting at the right hand of God is a metaphor. Stephen did not see Jesus sitting on the throne. Stephen saw Jesus standing near the throne. Jesus as the Lamb of God was standing in the midst of the elders and John, before the throne.

The Holy Spirit is not in heaven any longer? The Holy Spirit was not abiding in the 24 elders or John ?

No man was found worthy to open the seals because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.