What was God's intent in Rev. chapters 4 & 5?

iamlamad

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Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

What I have underlined are referring to the same events. Matthew 24:29 places the events recorded in Revelation 6:13 as taking place after the trib of those days, IOW after the 42 month reign of the beast, yet just prior to the 2nd coming.
No one really knows what it means - that the stars fall to earth: it MAY mean a meteor shower. It may mean angels are sent to earth. The real key word here is the blood red moon. Note that in Matthew the starts fall from heaven. What is this? A shooting star? This could happen TWICE and apparently will.

The first time will be in chapter 6 of Revelation, the next time is not shown in Revelation but WOULD BE just before His coming in chapter 19. You do know His coming with power and glory is in chapter 19?

What I have underlined are referring to the same events.
No, you imagine they are the same, but they are not. Joel is very clear on this showing them as two different events. Van Kampen and Rosenthal thought they were the same events. They were wrong.

You should have alarm bells going off when you see something that is at the time of His coming referred to as something in Rev. 6! This would require a total rearranging of John's book!

If you study the Hebrew and Greek, the sun when the moon is read is "like sackcloth." This is talking about an eclipse of the sun. The blood red moon is talking about an eclipse of the moon. When the sun is eclipses, it looks black, but with a ring of light around it. John's point is, it is a SEEN sun. It is a SEEN moon.

In Matthew 24, "darkness" means the absence of light. NO LIGHT. It is speaking of total darkness.

These are two different signs for two different purposes coming at two different times.

You are simply mistaken.
 
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iamlamad

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I tend to agree with you to a degree. You once again make some good points.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


So what does one do with this verse then? Does or does it not mean what it says? What does it say? and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. Doesn't that indicate the beast continues 42 months, regardless? It doesn't say it continues 40 months, or 46 months, etc, right?


What then ends it's reign?

I would think the following for one.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Notice that the 7th trumpet sounds first. Which then results in the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Which then leads to the time of wrath. IOW, the 7 last vials of wrath.

Why? Because God has once again gained control of the planet. The first thing on the agenda appears to be found in verse 18---And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come----and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
If you just follow along in Revelation, that book answers most questions. When the 7th vial hits and the cities of the world are destroyed, the Beast seems to disappear! However, Jerusalem is under attack! I think he and the false prophet certainly are not with the leaders of the armies of the world attacking Jerusalem. No, they would be hidden in the rear somewhere. Israel (the people) are of course fighting to the death. It is written that the city is taken and people carried away as slaves. (I think Zech).

It seems that Israel will become a nation in history - but Jesus returns in the nick of time! The armies attacking Israel are destroyed. Jesus touches down and a valley is created where the Jews under attack have a way of escape.

Now, the 42 months. Notice that John started his 42 months two chapters after the 42 months of trampling. That means he will be capture and killed some time after the 70th week is finished. His 42 months will include the time after the week ends at the 7th vial up to the time of His coming in chapter 19. He will CERTAINLY not be killed before His 42 months. His last few days will be in the battle of the combined nations of the world against Israel.

Remember, it is at the 6th seal where demons are sent to draw in the armies of the world. That would be near the end of the week.

power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. Doesn't that indicate the beast continues 42 months, regardless? YES! God's word is TRUE: He will not be put to death until His 42 months are complete. And His authority continues also. But while He is exercising HIS authority, God pours out vials with associated plagues that will prevent the Beast from doing what he wants: to murder every Jew and every believer.

Just the fact that at the end He brings in the combined armies of the world show he still has authority.

What is shortened are those days where the Beast and his armies are beheading saints. How can they when they are sitting in the dark gnawing their tongues in pain? Apparently the pain eases for they probably are behind the scenes at the battle of Armageddon where they are taken and killed.

What ENDS His 42 months? DEATH: Jesus comes and captures them. But after His 42 months. God does not lie.

No, you are mistaken. Events in chapter 11 are MIDPOINT events. God gets His planet back at the midpoint. Satan is cast down to BEGIN the days of GT at the midpoint. Please, don't try and rearrange John's great book!

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. This is PROPHECY by the elders of soon coming events. they don't take place in chapter 11 timing.

Which then leads to the time of wrath. No, wrath has been ongoing. You should learn, most of John's verbs are Greek Aorist tense verbs that show NO timing information at all. We can usually only find timing in Revelation by where in the book it is first mentioned.

thy wrath is come, There is no possible way to translate this into English with the same idea as the Greek. In English it looks present tense. In Greek, NO tense. God's wrath will begin at the 6th seal and then continue on through the trumpets and vials. Agreed, the vials of wrath come next. But God has wrath before the vials too.
 
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iamlamad

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The Day of the Lord is eternal.

The Day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist in the middle part of the 7 years goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

Prior to then, during most of the first portion of the 7 years, Israel and the world is saying "peace and safety" because they will think they have entered the messianic age.

In the middle part of the week, the sudden like a thief in the night, Antichrist's action shatters that illusion. The Day of Lord begins with his act.

And the first portion of the eternal Day of the Lord is the great tribulation.

After Jesus returns, the Day of the Lord continues into and through the millennium time of no war and peace on earth, but at the very end is one last rebellion by Satan. Which is followed by the destruction of this present heaven and earth - which Peter referred to.

Following the great white throne judgment, the Day of the Lord continues and lasts forever.

The Day of the Lord begins - but never ends. It is eternal.

For the readers: WHERE do we find the quote, "peace and safety?" In Revelation? No, it is in Paul's writing at the rapture.Perhaps Douggg is right; perhaps after the rapture the man of sin will tell the world that invaders from outer space took the trouble markers off the planet so now we can have peace.

On the other hand, will people be thinking peace when the trumpet judgments come? I am convinced some of them speak of nuclear war...that does not sound like peace or safety. Then when angelic armies come and take 1/3 of the population away, I don't think people will be thinking peace.

I never thought of the Day of the Lord as forever. Hmmmmmm.
 
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iamlamad

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(wrath on the Lamb was a typo error. obviously, it should have been wrath of the Lamb. I went back corrected my post)


How can them already dead say ? ...

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
_____________________________________________________

It only makes sense if them in the fifth seal are the great tribulation martyrs. And not the historical martyrs.
Who said they were dead? John didn't! It is your imagination again!

What is the TIMING here? It is AFTER the church age! The martyrs of seal 5 will already be raptured. I don't see your problem. But then, it seems you and I see bible time differently!
 
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iamlamad

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Agreed. But considering everything, it makes the MOST sense. it is NOT at Jesus' return. This is before the nations will have gather to wipe Israel off the map. It is before the 7th vial brings the world's worst earthquake.

I still disagree.
 
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iamlamad

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Because no man is worthy, because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
You are still side stepping the real issue. I wonder why?

In the next verse when Jesus was found worthy, at that time "all have sinned." No, the REAL reason "no man was found worthy:" is in the TIMING. You see, there was a time before Jesus was worthy to take the book.
 
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Douggg

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Who said they were dead? John didn't! It is your imagination again!

What is the TIMING here? It is AFTER the church age! The martyrs of seal 5 will already be raptured. I don't see your problem. But then, it seems you and I see bible time differently!
Apparently you are not understanding my point.

In the sixth seal, the men of the world respond to seeing Jesus, the Lamb of God before the throne of God in heaven, knowing that Jesus is about to execute judgment on them, revenge on behalf of them martyred.

If them martyred in the fifth seal were the historic martyred, and not the great tribulation martyred, as you contend - Jesus's revenge would be impossible on the murders because those murders have long since died.

Differently, the murders in the sixth seal are still alive, living on earth, because the ones in the fifth seal are the great tribulation martyrs.
 
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Douggg

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You are still side stepping the real issue. I wonder why?

In the next verse when Jesus was found worthy, at that time "all have sinned." No, the REAL reason "no man was found worthy:" is in the TIMING. You see, there was a time before Jesus was worthy to take the book.
I am not side stepping any issue. You asked why no man was found worthy to open the seals - and I explained why, and it is very simple that all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

"found" in Revelation 5 does not mean a search was done on a billion people saying this one is not worthy, then this one is not worthy...... It means no man born of Adam's seed is determined to be worthy.

A jury, for example, finds someone guilty or not guilty. They are not looking for the person. They are determining if the person is guilty or not guilty.

You are the one side stepping that Jesus was there in heaven, on the throne being worshipping in Revelation 4:8-11.
 
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Douggg

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Agreed. But considering everything, it makes the MOST sense. it is NOT hat Jesus' return. This is before the nations will have gather to wipe Israel off the map. It is before the 7th vial brings the world's worst earthquake.

I still disagree.
No, having the world exchange presents rejoicing over the deaths of the two witnesses at the end of the 70th week does not make sense.

Here's your chronology...

7th seal begins the 70th week with....
trumpet 1
trumpet 2
trumpet 3
trumpet 4
trumpet 5
turmpet 6
trumpet 7 - marks the mid point of the week
man of sin arrives with army takes over Jerusalem for 42 months
at the same time the two witnesses begin their 1260 days
vial 1
vial 2
vial 3
vial 4
vial 5
vial 6
vial 7 - ends the 70th week
the two witnesses killed and brought back to life, the world rejoices and exchange presents.
__________________________________________________

Your chronology is flawed because the world will not be exchanging presents at that time over the deaths of the two witnesses.

Here is the way exchanging the presents makes sense.

Day 1 confirmation of the covenant
Day 1185 aod setup to be worshiped
Day 1260 two witnesses are killed. The world exchanges presents
Day 1263.5 two witnesses ascend, leave the earth
Day 2475 heavens part, world sees the Lamb of God before the throne
Day 2520 Jesus descends to earth, executes judgment on the beast, the false prophet, and the armies.
 
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iamlamad

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Apparently you are not understanding my point.

In the sixth seal, the men of the world respond to seeing Jesus, the Lamb of God before the throne of God in heaven, knowing that Jesus is about to execute judgment on them, revenge on behalf of them martyred.

If them martyred in the fifth seal were the historic martyred, and not the great tribulation martyred, as you contend - Jesus's revenge would be impossible on the murders because those murders have long since died.

Differently, the murders in the sixth seal are still alive, living on earth, because the ones in the fifth seal are the great tribulation martyrs.

You have errors in your thinking: "knowing that Jesus is about to execute judgment on them, revenge on behalf of them martyred." How can you say the revenge to follow the 6th seal is [only] to judge those that killed Believers? In other words to avenge those of the 5th seal? The judgment of the Day of the Lord is to judge the entire world, not just those that kill believers.

Next, one never ceases to exist: those martyrs did not cease to exist; they just lost the house they were living in for a season. Let's talk about Stephen; He may well have been one of those crying out to be avenged. But the time Judgment starts at the 6th seal, after the 2000 years of church age, those that murdered Stephen will have been LONG dead. So how could Stephen's death be avenged?

What can I say? Everyone murdered with be avenged at the great white throne judgment. All will know who murdered a saint and which saint it was. Nothing will remain a secret. Murderers will be judged. But even then, perhaps some will never be judged. Saul put people to death, but then got born again and his sins erased. He will not be judged for those he put to death.
I still disagree with you.
 
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iamlamad

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No, having the world exchange presents rejoicing over the deaths of the two witnesses at the end of the 70th week does not make sense.

Here's your chronology...

7th seal begins the 70th week with....
trumpet 1
trumpet 2
trumpet 3
trumpet 4
trumpet 5
turmpet 6
trumpet 7 - marks the mid point of the week
man of sin arrives with army takes over Jerusalem for 42 months
at the same time the two witnesses begin their 1260 days
vial 1
vial 2
vial 3
vial 4
vial 5
vial 6
vial 7 - ends the 70th week
the two witnesses killed and brought back to life, the world rejoices and exchange presents.
__________________________________________________

Your chronology is flawed because the world will not be exchanging presents at that time over the deaths of the two witnesses.

Here is the way exchanging the presents makes sense.

Day 1 confirmation of the covenant
Day 1185 aod setup to be worshiped
Day 1260 two witnesses are killed. The world exchanges presents
Day 1263.5 two witnesses ascend, leave the earth
Day 2475 heavens part, world sees the Lamb of God before the throne
Day 2520 Jesus descends to earth, executes judgment on the beast, the false prophet, and the armies.
It may make sense to you, but it does not follow the text.
I disagree.

There is TIME between the death of the two prophets and the 7th vial: 3 1/2 days of time. But then the great earthquake hits that takes down every city in the world. The gift exchange could be during those 3.5 days, or it could be after the earthquake. I think before the earthquake during the 3.5 days.
I still disagree.
 
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iamlamad

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I am not side stepping any issue. You asked why no man was found worthy to open the seals - and I explained why, and it is very simple that all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

"found" in Revelation 5 does not mean a search was done on a billion people saying this one is not worthy, then this one is not worthy...... It means no man born of Adam's seed is determined to be worthy.

A jury, for example, finds someone guilty or not guilty. They are not looking for the person. They are determining if the person is guilty or not guilty.

You are the one side stepping that Jesus was there in heaven, on the throne being worshipping in Revelation 4:8-11.
You are sidestepping because you have come up with no reason why John wrote that no man was found worthy.

Whether or not it was a real "search" or if it was just looking for someone to volunteer makes no difference. I think it was a real search. The result of what ever it was is that it ended in failure because no man volunteered or no man was found. I think the way "found" is uses here dictates a real search.

The question is, why wasn't Jesus found THEN? If He was found later (and He was) then why not at the first search?
Your answer makes no sense. WHERE WAS JESUS at this first search? Can you answer that question?
 
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Douggg

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There is TIME between the death of the two prophets and the 7th vial: 3 1/2 days of time. But then the great earthquake hits that takes down every city in the world. The gift exchange could be during those 3.5 days, or it could be after the earthquake. I think before the earthquake during the 3.5 days.
I still disagree.
What is the world doing in the 6th vial ?
 
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Douggg

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How can you say the revenge to follow the 6th seal is [only] to judge those that killed Believers?
I wrote them murdered during the great tribulation. They are killed for not worshipping the beast nor his image. It is detailed out in Revelation 14:9-13.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
_______________________________________________________

They are the ones in the 5th seal.
_____________________________________________________
The murderers and the ones on their side, opposing God in Revelation 6:15-17 are alive at the time in those verses, when they in terror want to hide and die from the rocks falling on them, rather than face Jesus. Read the text. It is obvious.

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

lamad, how would the above verses apply to Stephen for example? Them who stoned Stephen are long dead. Differently, them who murder the great tribulation saints will be still be alive and on earth doing evil. And those evil men are the ones reacting, to the appearance of Jesus before the throne of God in Revelation 6:15-17.
_____________________________________________________

All of the events of the 7 seals are taking place over the course of 7 years.
 
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DavidPT

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No, you have it wrong: NO vial will come until all 7 trumpets have sounded and God gets His planet back.


And this is my position as well. The 7th trumpet is when the vials are poured out. As to the seals though, they are merely a chronological outline of events, where the 6th seal is at the tailend of these events. You somehow think the events recorded in the 6th seal, for example, have already taken place before the first trumpet sounds. Pretribbers in particular typically reason it wrong like that. Just because the 6th seal is mentioned prior to that of any trumpets, that alone doesn't prove the seal events chronologically precede the first trumpet. We have to first try and logically reason through these things in order to determine whether or not any of the seal events can precede the first trumpet and everything else that follows it.
 
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Douggg

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The 7th trumpet is when the vials are poured out.

The two witnesses ascend on day 1263.5 of the 7 years. The 7th trumpet sounds. It is the signal for Michael and his angels to kick Satan and his angels down to earth, as God starts dismantling Satan's kingdom.

It is the process of the kingdoms of the world becoming the kingdoms of God and his Christ. Which includes dismantling the beast's kingdom as well.

The placement of the 7th trumpet is not at the end of the 7 years. It is in the middle of the 7 years - and the 7 vials take place during the 42 months of the beast's reign - most toward the end of it as the intensity of the judgments increases.
 
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DavidPT

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The two witnesses ascend on day 1263.5 of the 7 years. The 7th trumpet sounds. It is the signal for Michael and his angels to kick Satan and his angels down to earth, as God starts dismantling Satan's kingdom.

It is the process of the kingdoms of the world becoming the kingdoms of God and his Christ. Which includes dismantling the beast's kingdom as well.

The placement of the 7th trumpet is not at the end of the 7 years. It is in the middle of the 7 years - and the 7 vials take place during the 42 months of the beast's reign - most toward the end of it as the intensity of the judgments increases.



What about it being the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great? What does any of that have to do with what you are referring to, especially if the time of the dead is mid 70th week? I don't get it?

Plus there is the following as well to consider. In particular, what I have underlined.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail .
 
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Douggg

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What about it being the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great? What does any of that have to do with what you are referring to, especially if the time of the dead is mid 70th week? I don't get it?
The dead in Christ and them who are alive will have been caught up to heaven in the rapture/resurrection to take place before the Day of the Lord begins in the middle part of the 7 years.

During the second half of the 7 years, in heaven, all will stand before Jesus for what they have done for the cause of Christ and will receive rewards accordingly, while here on the earth the great tribulation takes place and Satan and his kingdom and the kingdom of the beast is being dismantled.

At the end of the 7 years, at the end of the great tribulation, in Revelation 19, the Kingdom of God is adorned with the righteousness of the saints - who will return with Jesus, at the completion of making the kingdoms of this world the Kingdoms of God and His Christ.

The Kingdom of God brought down from heaven by Jesus with the saints becomes the ruling kingdom over all earthly kingdoms.
 
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iamlamad

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What is the world doing in the 6th vial ?
They are suffering. At least those in the kingdom of the Beast are suffering; perhaps the entire world is suffering. However, the armies of the world are still going to be able to travel and get themselves to Israel.

What will the world be doing during the 7th vial?
 
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