How Do you Define Sola Fide (Faith Alone) and is it Biblical?

[redleghunter]

But who can say they have never done evil? All have sinned and fall short of God’s glory. I did all kinds of evil before coming to Christ.

Just adds to my question. Thanks we are all sinners before a Holy God.

 

[redleghunter]

And How are you not seeing my answer? AGAIN~~

Because we are RATIONAL CREATURES WITH OUR OWN PERSONAL VOLITION.

Jesus Christ marveled at unbelief........BECAUSE HE CREATED RATIONAL CREATURES WITH PERSONAL VOLITION.

We are children of the Fall and the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil.

Are we choosing God in our fallen state?

 

[Gr8Grace]

Are we choosing God in our fallen state?

We are choosing to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and His work for our salvation from our God given rationality and personal volition. Acts 16:31.

None seek after God....so God sought out mankind, came to mankind, and revealed His salvation to all mankind........Rejoice over this tremendous truth, rather than reject it.
John 12:32~~New American Standard Bible
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Post 232~~It is when we hear and BELIEVE the gospel that we are made alive.
Eph 1:13~~New American Standard Bible
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

'Believed.'~~Active voice. With our own personal volition we believe.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No. Just because you say those verses do not mean what they say does not prove that you are correct. You have to explain word for word these verses.

I also answered the thief on the cross question in this thread already. The thief did good works. He was not ashamed of Jesus and he spoke in his defense.

I’m sorry I didn’t see your answer concerning the thief. I’m curious have you ever met a Christian that believes that we are saved by faith and works?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Just adds to my question. Thanks we are all sinners before a Holy God.

I think not always. After baptism or after confessing our sins they are forgiven and God remembers them no more.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Just adds to my question. Thanks we are all sinners before a Holy God.

I don’t know after looking at the Greek word used it also means to be mindful or remember. I think to be mindful makes more sense. God being omnipresent he sees all things in all time all the time. So I don’t think He can not remember what He always sees.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I’m sorry I didn’t see your answer concerning the thief. I’m curious have you ever met a Christian that believes that we are saved by faith and works?

I have a close brother who agrees that a Christian cannot live a lifestyle of sin with them being saved. My wife believes as I do. But hardcore Faith + Works besides my wife? This would be more online (via discussion by email, forum, etc.).

There are also Sola Scriptura churches who believe in Faith + Works = Salvation.

1. Salvation Army. What We Believe - The Salvation Army USA
   
   
2. Christ’s Sanctified Holy Church: Christ's Sanctified Holy Church-Holiness unto the Lord
   
   
3. International Fellowship of Bible Churches International Fellowship of Bible Churches

There are Christians authors or teachers who believe in Faith + Works.

1. David Servant.
2. Lee Woofenden.
3. Matthew Bates.

The point here is that narrow is the way that leads into life and few be there that finds it. You actually do have to be good as a part of God’s kingdom. This should not surprise you. Jesus says we will know a tree by it's fruit.

 

[redleghunter]

I think not always. After baptism or after confessing our sins they are forgiven and God remembers them no more.

Oh I agree. What I was referring to is before our conversion.

 

[redleghunter]

Context. Prevenient Grace is already established beforehand.

John 1:9 says,
“That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

Therefore, Prevenient Grace as you laid it out by the proof text above produces believers who will obey the Word and be converted but others will reject it.

Back to the same question. Why is Prevenient Grace better for some and not others?

If your answer is “free will” then some have a predetermined free will to accept and some to reject.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Therefore, Prevenient Grace as you laid it out by the proof text above produces believers who will obey the Word and be converted but others will reject it.

Back to the same question. Why is Prevenient Grace better for some and not others?

If your answer is “free will” then some have a predetermined free will to accept and some to reject.

No. God does not predetermine in making our choices for us. Free will means exactly that. You can make a free will choice between choosing Christ or not choosing Christ (of your own free will) while under God’s enlightenment. The choice does not become any less free if it is narrowed within a specific window of opportunity or possible multiple windows of opportunity. Yes, we are limited in the kind of free will choices we can make in this life. We cannot fly on our own power or shoot laser beams from out of our eyes. But we can still make free will choices in this life; Especially in regards to God (when He draws us and gives us enlightenment to choose Him or not to choose Him freely).

 

[redleghunter]

And How are you not seeing my answer? AGAIN~~

Because we are RATIONAL CREATURES WITH OUR OWN PERSONAL VOLITION.

Jesus Christ marveled at unbelief........BECAUSE HE CREATED RATIONAL CREATURES WITH PERSONAL VOLITION.

We were created sinless without being condemned to death. We are children of Adam and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This is our fallen state.

We can only be reconciled by and in Christ Jesus by His shed blood.

When God calls, some believe all are called with equal Light given. Yet some accept and some reject.

The human volition you speak of is fallen. In Romans 3 Paul says no one seeks God and none are righteous. He also says in Ephesians 2 we are children of wrath and dead in our sins.

This is the human volition you speak of. It is dead, not seeking and wrath is upon us.

Yet we have the Good news or Gospel in Christ Jesus. Some come to the Light of the Gospel and some do not and reject it. Yet we have according to you the same human volition or human will which either chooses to believe and thus eternal life or reject and thus remain in condemnation.

How do we (all of us) in the fallen human will or volition have different responses to the Gospel? Are some free wills or volitions greater or better than others?

 

[redleghunter]

No. God does not predetermine in making our choices for us. Free will means exactly that. You can make a free will choice between choosing Christ or not choosing Christ (of your own free will) while under God’s enlightenment. The choice does not become any less free if it is narrowed within a specific window of opportunity or possible multiple windows of opportunity. Yes, we are limited in the kind of free will choices we can make in this life. We cannot fly on our own power or shoot laser beams from out of our eyes. But we can still make free will choices in this life; Especially in regards to God (when He draws us and gives us enlightenment).

Ok but this free will you speak of produces two different results. That means the free will of some is more inclined to obey than others.

As you already pointed out people like Cornelius where his alms were seen by God and Paul who was on blinded rage filled genocide.

Yet both were called and Justified.

Would that not be a sovereign act of God?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ok but this free will you speak of produces two different results. That means the free will of some is more inclined to obey than others.

As you already pointed out people like Cornelius where his alms were seen by God and Paul who was on blinded rage filled genocide.

Yet both were called and Justified.

Would that not be a sovereign act of God?

Again, nothing has changed. I already said that a person can do truth and or not do truth and yet, God can still give them enlightenment to freely choose of their own free will the gospel and Christ.

God is Sovereign even amongst His free willed beings. But Calvinist’s version of Sovereign is different. God actually makes the choice for a person (unconditionally) in whether they are saved or not (Which is immoral because God is loving and good and desires all to be saved). God does not randomly punish people for no reason. God is love; God is not inhumane.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

John 3:21 was not meant to be an exhaustive truth. We see in John 1:9 says that Christ lights every man that comes into the world.

 

[redleghunter]

Again, nothing has changed. I already said that a person can do truth and or not do truth and yet, God can still give them enlightenment to freely choose of their own free will the gospel and Christ.

That means God enlightens some to obey the Gospel and the rest don’t get that enlightenment.

Therefore God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

God is Sovereign even amongst His free willed beings. But Calvinist’s version of Sovereign is different. God actually makes the choice for a person (unconditionally) in whether they are saved or not (Which is immoral because God is loving and good and desires all to be saved). God does not randomly punish people for no reason.

Actually the Biblical and Reformed view is what I posited above. That we are all condemned damned sinners deserving of God’s Judgement as children of wrath. That is our equal setting before a Holy God. That God has mercy on whom He has mercy and compassion on whom He has compassion.

As dead in our sins by God’s mercy and love He makes us alive in Jesus Christ by taking out the heart of stone and giving us a heart of flesh. And by doing so we can truly choose Him by godly sorrow leading to repentance. That’s all Biblical.

Where our views differ is you believe everyone is put into this state to choose God freely and can still reject Him. Whereas Paul says those God calls He Justifies and Glorifies. Also Paul speaks of the bondage of the human will in Romans 6. We are either in bondage to sin leading to death or in bondage to righteousness.

With this Biblical bondage of the human will qualified, it explains why some reject the Gospel and some accept the Gospel.

Even in your version of Arminian Prevenient Grace, there is human free will but two results. The first being belief and obedience to the Gospel and the second being not to come into the Light and rejection of the Gospel.

You then mention God enlightens some or helps them out not taking away their free will. Yet we still have the people who are not helped out and remain condemned. This is still God calling some and not others to conversion and you have the same problem with fairness and justice as some free will is better than others.

Unless of course your point was there is some inner goodness in some of us before conversion which enables our free will?

 

[redleghunter]

John 3:21 was not meant to be an exhaustive truth. We see in John 1:9 says that Christ lights every man that comes into the world.

Fair enough. That is also a verse Universalists use to show that God never fails in His will and purpose. That since God draws all people and lights every person, He will not fail in what He sets out to accomplish His will and purpose.

So we have to be careful how the verses you and Universalists use to implore “all” and “world” means every human person who has ever lived, currently living or will live. Because we know they are wrong as other parts of the Bible confirm only those who believe and obey the Gospel will be saved.

Same here. If we look elsewhere we see your verses are qualified in Romans 8 that those who God calls He justifies. Meaning we have two types of calls. One general and one effectual where those God calls will be Justified conformed to the image of Christ in Sanctification and be Glorified. We also know that who these people are also believe and obey the Gospel, repent and receive the seal of Promise in the Holy Spirit. This is the expository on God calling the sinner. There’s nothing unfair or unjust about it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Fair enough. That is also a verse Universalists use to show that God never fails in His will and purpose. That since God draws all people and lights every person, He will not fail in what He sets out to accomplish His will and purpose.

But the Universalists are wrong because the Bible clearly talks about how the devil will be annihilated (Isaiah 14:12) (Isaiah 14:19) (Ezekiel 28:14-15) (Ezekiel 28:18), how the wicked will be destroyed or erased from existence (Matthew 10:28) (2 Thessalonians 1:9) (2 Peter 2:6) (Revelation 21:8) (Deuteronomy 7:10) (Psalms 1:6) (Psalms 68:2) (Psalms 92:7) (Job 4:8-9) (Isaiah 66:22-24) and how the last enemy known as "death" will be destroyed (1 Corinthians 15:26).

So we have to be careful how the verses you and Universalists use to implore “all” and “world” means every human person who has ever lived, currently living or will live. Because we know they are wrong as other parts of the Bible confirm only those who believe and obey the Gospel will be saved.

Universalists and Calvinists both take certain select verses out of context and in light of many other verses in the Bible. For Universalists: I imagine some of their favorites are: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, and Colossians 1:19-20. For Calvinists it is Romans 9, 2 Timothy 2:25, and John 6:44.

Universalists ignore true and fair justice. Everyone is going to be with God (whether they like it or not) despite what evil men do. What you do in this life does not matter. You can live however you like and you will eventually make it into God's Kingdom at some point. Calvinism ignores true love. We know true love is when two persons love each other of their own free will. True love or the highest form of love is not forced. Calvinism is about God forcing some to be saved and others not to be saved with no real rhyme or reason. It also takes away responsibility in this life, as well. If I am not one of God's chosen club members, it does not matter what I do in this life.

Same here. If we look elsewhere we see your verses are qualified in Romans 8 that those who God calls He justifies. Meaning we have two types of calls. One general and one effectual where those God calls will be Justified conformed to the image of Christ in Sanctification and be Glorified. We also know that who these people are also believe and obey the Gospel, repent and receive the seal of Promise in the Holy Spirit. This is the expository on God calling the sinner. There’s nothing unfair or unjust about it.

You are reading too much into these verses an assumption that it is in reference to every believer who was justified by accepting Christ at one time in their life. While God can justify those in whom He calls. That does not mean everyone called actually responds to God's call.

Isaiah 66:4 says,
"...because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not."

Also, just because you are chosen does not mean you are saved, either. Israel was God's chosen people, but surely you do not believe all of Israel is saved.

James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). So when Paul says those in whom he justified he glorifies, he is talking about being justified by faith (that includes being justified by works of faith that shows that one's faith is genuine).

 

[redleghunter]

You are reading too much into these verses an assumption that it is in reference to every believer who was justified by accepting Christ at one time in their life. While God can justify those in whom He calls. That does not mean everyone called actually responds to God's call.

Ok I will stick to the call of God.

Romans 8 is not verse plucking. It’s actually a teaching on how God calls. Paul specifically says those called God justifies. No wall of out of context verses can negate what Paul clearly communicates in Romans 8. Romans 8 is the context. All of Romans in fact leading up to Romans 8. Then the following chapters which clearly teach the sovereignty of God over His creation.

So we have to deal with where someone is clearly speaking of those who are in Christ (which means doing what He says) and how God called them in the first place. Romans 8 teaches this and actually connects the calling of God to a child of God and how He is intimately involved in Calling, Justification, Sanctification and Glorification.

God does choose and He chooses first. Romans is clear on this. Romans also teaches that godly sorrow leads to repentance and salvation and we believe with our heart and confess with our lips Jesus Christ as Lord. That’s us choosing God because He calls us.

There’s no way around these truths Paul presents to us from Romans chapter 1 through chapter 16. It is a theological dissertation which cannot be divided into pet theologies.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That means God enlightens some to obey the Gospel and the rest don’t get that enlightenment.

Therefore God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.Actually the Biblical and Reformed view is what I posited above. That we are all condemned damned sinners deserving of God’s Judgement as children of wrath. That is our equal setting before a Holy God. That God has mercy on whom He has mercy and compassion on whom He has compassion.

No.

In Romans 9, verses 14-16, it says:

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.​

Here Paul maintains that even though some Jews would be lost, there is no unrighteousness with God. He is certainly allowed to have mercy on whomever HE WILLS. He does not have to conform to Jewish traditional thought, and save all those–and only those–who circumcise their children. God’s Word tells us plainly the man upon whom GOD WILLS to have mercy:

He who covers his sins will not prosper, But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy. (Proverbs 28:13)​

For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. (Exodus 20:5-6)

Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. (Matthew 5:7)​

Likewise, Scripture tells us who will NOT have mercy:

Those who regard worthless idols forsake their own mercy. (Jonah 2:8)

For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. (James 2:13)​

Because the majority of the Jews were refusing to repent and rejecting Jesus Christ, clinging to the idol of Jewish nationalism as a means of salvation, God was under no obligation to be merciful to them.

As dead in our sins by God’s mercy and love He makes us alive in Jesus Christ by taking out the heart of stone and giving us a heart of flesh. And by doing so we can truly choose Him by godly sorrow leading to repentance. That’s all Biblical.

Except this is not the reality for any Calvinist I have talked with so far because most agree that King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder (Which means they are teaching a person can sin and still be saved on some level).

Where our views differ is you believe everyone is put into this state to choose God freely and can still reject Him. Whereas Paul says those God calls He Justifies and Glorifies. Also Paul speaks of the bondage of the human will in Romans 6. We are either in bondage to sin leading to death or in bondage to righteousness.

A person who is a slave to righteousness means that they always do what is good and right and they do not sin in thought, and action. Their beliefs cannot even lead a person to sin. But how does that work in Calvinism? Do you not believe it is possible to commit grievous sin on some level and still be saved? Was not King David saved in his sins of adultery and murder according to your belief?

With this Biblical bondage of the human will qualified, it explains why some reject the Gospel and some accept the Gospel.

What you believe is totally illogical. There would be no purpose of the judgment if God was the One who forced some to do righteousness and He forced others to be in a state of sin.

Even in your version of Arminian Prevenient Grace, there is human free will but two results. The first being belief and obedience to the Gospel and the second being not to come into the Light and rejection of the Gospel.

You then mention God enlightens some or helps them out not taking away their free will. Yet we still have the people who are not helped out and remain condemned. This is still God calling some and not others to conversion and you have the same problem with fairness and justice as some free will is better than others.

Unless of course your point was there is some inner goodness in some of us before conversion which enables our free will?

The Bible talks about how the Gentiles even do by nature the things contained in the Law (i.e. the Moral Law). If you turn on the news, you will see unbelieving Gentiles talking about the immorality of murder, theft, sexual abuse, lying in certain cases, etc. So yes; God has given men some level of right and wrong as a part of him. Yes, all men are sinful, but they also have a sense of right and wrong to them, too. They know certain things are right and wrong. God tells that faithful believer, "Well done good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of thy Lord." Why would God need to say this if He mind zapped them into being a puppet to obey Him? It makes no sense. Would a hypnotist say "well done" to their patient in whom they hypnotized to take action on something they wanted them to do? No. They were just falling their programming.

Source used:
Understanding Romans 9 Without the Calvinist Spin

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ok I will stick to the call of God.

Romans 8 is not verse plucking. It’s actually a teaching on how God calls. Paul specifically says those called God justifies. No wall of out of context verses can negate what Paul clearly communicates in Romans 8. Romans 8 is the context. All of Romans in fact leading up to Romans 8. Then the following chapters which clearly teach the sovereignty of God over His creation.

So we have to deal with where someone is clearly speaking of those who are in Christ (which means doing what He says) and how God called them in the first place. Romans 8 teaches this and actually connects the calling of God to a child of God and how He is intimately involved in Calling, Justification, Sanctification and Glorification.

God does choose and He chooses first. Romans is clear on this. Romans also teaches that godly sorrow leads to repentance and salvation and we believe with our heart and confess with our lips Jesus Christ as Lord. That’s us choosing God because He calls us.

There’s no way around these truths Paul presents to us from Romans chapter 1 through chapter 16. It is a theological dissertation which cannot be divided into pet theologies.

You know. We can keep going on back and forth and if you still don't get it with the Scriptures at this point, I cannot help you. I can keep countering your verses and you will just post what you think those verses say. The real heart of the matter is proving that your belief is moral and good. So please explain to me how your belief is moral and good.