How Do you Define Sola Fide (Faith Alone) and is it Biblical?

[mark kennedy]

That’s the part I’m asking about. I acknowledge your previous statements and understood what you were communicating.

What is not clear (at least to me as I’m asking) in Arminian Prevenient Grace is once this enlightened state happens when one can fully understand the Gospel, why do some exercising free will accept Christ and why do some reject Christ?

Put another way, the veil is lifted from every person’s eyes yet some reject Christ and some choose Him.

Prevenient Grace could explain how someone is approaching saving grace but fell short of saving faith, ultimately falling away. That's about as far as it goes. I understand why it's important but leaving the faith once received is perdition and losing salvation after being in Christ is simply impossible. Guess I'm kind of locked into this one, but the New Testament is clear and arguments to the contrary are nearly nonexistent.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[redleghunter]

As I had shown from Scripture, it is because of their sin that they reject the gospel.

So those who reject Christ are still dead in their sins. But those who choose God are not a slave to sin but righteousness.

That’s what I’m getting above.

Jesus says he that does truth comes to the light.
Meaning, if we are truly setting out to do what is good and right, or if we are seeking to live right by God for real and not justify sin, God will reveal Himself to us the true gospel for us to act upon if that is our choice.

This is good detail. Prevenient Grace by your estimation is we have some semblance of living right with God and we are then extended this Grace?

 

[redleghunter]

Prevenient Grace could explain how someone is approaching saving grace but fell short of saving faith, ultimately falling away. That's about as far as it goes. I understand why it's important but leaving the faith once received is perdition and losing salvation after being in Christ is simply impossible. Guess I'm kind of locked into this one, but the New Testament is clear and arguments to the contrary are nearly nonexistent.

Grace and peace,
Mark

That’s why I’m trying to get an Arminian or Wesleyan answer from someone of that tradition.

What I’m getting so far is not all Free Will is equal. Some have more of something which helps them through the narrow gate to repentance and salvation.

 

[mark kennedy]

That’s why I’m trying to get an Arminian or Wesleyan answer from someone of that tradition.

What I’m getting so far is not all Free Will is equal. Some have more of something which helps them through the narrow gate to repentance and salvation.

That's not really the issue, but I understand what your saying. At the point of conversion you have absolutely nothing, if you try to work for that you are an affront to grace. What works you do later is a work of God and I do mean by grace. There is no excuse for incomplete repentance and we will all answer, but there will come a day when God alone will be glorified. I have no animosity for Arminians and I had no problem studying with Wesleyans, they are believers to. If you have issues with Calvinism then take it up with Calvinism because we have never been soft on sin and certainly don't teach that God doesn't hold us accountable.

If you think your good works have merit with regards to salvation then your wrong. That does not mean we are saying let us sin so that grace may increase, which is slander Paul condemns in the strongest possible words. Grace is the key, it's the only way we ever get to righteousness. If your harboring your good works as a means to that end I think it's an affront to the gospel.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[BNR32FAN]

Sorry, that makes no sense. That is a incorrect parallel of the reality of faith + works = grace (salvation, or Jesus) as shown in the Bible. The works are the works of God in our life after we accept Jesus as our Savior.

Philippians 2:13 says,
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Jesus says,
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing" (John 15:5).

Branches need to draw source from the life of the vine in order to grow and bear good fruit (good work).

Cars put off polution and destroy the environment, so nothing really good comes from cars in regards to the goodness of our planet (except for us getting from point A to point B really fast). Trees are a part of nature that God created. So the analogy that Jesus made is more accurate and correct.

Tree trunk and it's roots (vine) = Jesus (life, salvation, grace).
Branches = us.
Good Fruit = Good works of God done through us.
Jesus says we will know the type of tree that it is by it's fruit.
He says a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit and a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit.
So the kind of tree that Jesus is describing is one way or the other.
Jesus will not accept a tree that has good and bad fruit on it.
This is why those in Matthew 7 who said they did good works were told to depart by Jesus from His presence because they also worked iniquity (sin) (or bad fruit).

God will not accept good and bad fruit.
This is the same when it comes to men, as well.

For example:
If Rick put rat poison in a healthy vegetable drink full of vitamins, would Rick drink it if he valued his life? No.

Would Rick eat a bowl of rice krispies in milk if he found out his cat had pooped in it, thinking it was the litter box? More than likely... no.

Your not seeing this. Nowhere in the NT does anyone say we are saved by faith plus works. All of the authors say we are saved by faith. Many of them specifically say we are NOT saved by works. You maintain that they are talking about a works only based salvation but they were teaching how we receive salvation. If we are saved by faith and works they would’ve said that. They would not in every single case of this discussion only tell half of how we are saved. They NEVER say we are saved by faith and works. Every single time they say we are saved by faith not works. What you are not understanding is that a saving faith will produce works. If works are absent in a person’s life then faith is also absent and they will not receive grace because they do not have faith. Personally I see faith as meaning devotion according to the Greek definition of the word. When you are devoted to God you desire to do what pleases Him and do not desire to do what angers Him. With that being said what works did the thief on the cross do? The thief on the cross didn’t do anything to help others after coming to faith. He was saved by his faith without works. But Jesus knows our heart. I guarantee you if that man had been taken off the cross and set free he would’ve done good works because his heart showed his faith and devotion. That’s the only way he could’ve been saved. It’s not because he called Jesus Lord. Jesus said not everyone who calls to me Lord Lord will enter heaven but those who do the will of My Father. I believe this is contingent on whether or not the person has the ability to do good works. God is merciful and He will not condemn those who truly wanted to do His will but were incapable due to things outside of their control. Because of this I believe it is possible for someone in their final hour possibly laying on their death bed can believe in Jesus and come to a genuine faith and die having done no works at all and still be saved. So far I have not seen you address the thief on the cross being saved yet. If you maintain that we are saved by faith and works then you should explain how the thief was saved without having done any good works.

 

[Gr8Grace]

What is not clear (at least to me as I’m asking) in Arminian Prevenient Grace is once this enlightened state happens when one can fully understand the Gospel, why do some exercising free will accept Christ and why do some reject Christ?

I am not Armin and I don't call it an "enlightened state."

It's common grace. A rational creature,with personal volition can understand that they are in need of salvation(Acts 16:30.)
A rational creature, with personal volition can understand the simple Gospel.

The Gospel is rejected or accepted because His creatures are rational, with personal volition.(Acts 16:31.)

Paul did not tell the jailer, "Seek after God and you shall be saved." Paul told the jailer to believe what the Lord Jesus Christ did when seeking after mankind and salvation for them.(acts 16:31)

None seek after God, so God came for mankind with his salvation. And revealed it to all mankind.(common grace/whosoever can believe and be saved.)
John 12:32~~New American Standard Bible
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."


John 3:16~~New American Standard Bible
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's not really the issue, but I understand what your saying. At the point of conversion you have absolutely nothing, if you try to work for that you are an affront to grace. What works you do later is a work of God and I do mean by grace. There is no excuse for incomplete repentance and we will all answer, but there will come a day when God alone will be glorified. I have no animosity for Arminians and I had no problem studying with Wesleyans, they are believers to. If you have issues with Calvinism then take it up with Calvinism because we have never been soft on sin and certainly don't teach that God doesn't hold us accountable.

If you think your good works have merit with regards to salvation then your wrong. That does not mean we are saying let us sin so that grace may increase, which is slander Paul condemns in the strongest possible words. Grace is the key, it's the only way we ever get to righteousness. If your harboring your good works as a means to that end I think it's an affront to the gospel.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Not at all. You are confusing Paul’s words on fighting against “Works ALONE Salvationism” (Which is what “Circumcision Salvationism” is about; The heresy that Paul was speaking out against). The Bible testifies that works are also necessary AFTER we are saved by God’s grace. For 1 John 1:7 says that walking in the light (loving your brother - 1 John 2:9-10) is a condition by which the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses you of all sin. Hebrews 5:9 confirms this. It essentially says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. Paul says in Titus 2:11-12 that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously in this present world. To say that one can sin and still be saved on some level under God's grace (by saying that works are not necessary for salvation) is to teach a person that God's grace does not deny ungodliness.

In Matthew 25:31-46 those who do not help the poor in this life are cast into everlasting fire. This parable is NOT told to us from a Calvinistic perspective (i.e. “And those in whom I choose to regenerate and or making chosen cannot help but to help the poor and they will have everlasting life”). The parable is told to us so that we can take action as believer to help the poor. That is why such instructions are there in your Bible. If we do not help the poor in this life, then we will be cast into everlasting fire. But if Calvinism was true, there would be no need to have this kind of instruction in the Bible because you would just automatically help the poor as a part of being regenerated. But the Bible does have these instructions for us. It is not something you are going to do as part of being in God's special club. It is a work that we as believers need to do (as told to us in His Word). 1 John 3:15 is another verse that suggests that we are saved by what we do. It says he that does not love his brother is like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. It would be non-sensical of John to tell us this if loving our brother was just something you automatically did as a part of being chosen or regenerated. John would never say this if such a thing is true as you say. John believes that it is possible for a brother to not love another brother and as a result, he does not have eternal life abiding in Him by doing so. John does not speak from a Calvnistic perspective and says, "Don't worry about any of this; If you are not chosen by God, you cannot love your brother." John does not speak like that.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your not seeing this. Nowhere in the NT does anyone say we are saved by faith plus works. All of the authors say we are saved by faith. Many of them specifically say we are NOT saved by works. You maintain that they are talking about a works only based salvation but they were teaching how we receive salvation. If we are saved by faith and works they would’ve said that. They would not in every single case of this discussion only tell half of how we are saved. They NEVER say we are saved by faith and works. Every single time they say we are saved by faith not works. What you are not understanding is that a saving faith will produce works. If works are absent in a person’s life then faith is also absent and they will not receive grace because they do not have faith. Personally I see faith as meaning devotion according to the Greek definition of the word. When you are devoted to God you desire to do what pleases Him and do not desire to do what angers Him. With that being said what works did the thief on the cross do? The thief on the cross didn’t do anything to help others after coming to faith. He was saved by his faith without works. But Jesus knows our heart. I guarantee you if that man had been taken off the cross and set free he would’ve done good works because his heart showed his faith and devotion. That’s the only way he could’ve been saved. It’s not because he called Jesus Lord. Jesus said not everyone who calls to me Lord Lord will enter heaven but those who do the will of My Father. I believe this is contingent on whether or not the person has the ability to do good works. God is merciful and He will not condemn those who truly wanted to do His will but were incapable due to things outside of their control. Because of this I believe it is possible for someone in their final hour possibly laying on their death bed can believe in Jesus and come to a genuine faith and die having done no works at all and still be saved. So far I have not seen you address the thief on the cross being saved yet. If you maintain that we are saved by faith and works then you should explain how the thief was saved without having done any good works.

The Bible is not written in a way or language that we prefer. The Bible does say we are saved by God's grace through faith + works of faith (that confirms that your faith is genuine) (Faith: 1 John 1:9) (1 Works: John 1:7) (Faith and works: Proverbs 28:13) (Faith: John 3:16) (Works: Hebrews 5:9) (Faith: Ephesians 2:8) (Works: James 2:24). For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). A dead faith cannot save anyone because a dead faith cannot access the saving grace of God (that is a free gift). For when we receive free gifts, that does not mean we do not put forth works of responsibility so as to keep that gift. A person can receive a free car as a gift, but that does not mean they can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians. If they did that, they would not keep their gift for very long. If a man receive an answer to his prayer for a godly wife, (and regarded her as a free gift from God) that does not mean he can cheat on her and do whatever he pleases with her. The relationship would not last.

But in order for your plan of salvation to work: God would have to agree with your thinking that you can sin and still be saved. God would have to agree with sin. But God is holy and He cannot agree with sin, and that is why your view of salvation fails. God is good; And His people are good, too.

For those believers who did good works in Christ's name were told to depart by Jesus Himself because they also worked iniquity (sin), too (See Matthew 7:23).


Side Note:

Oh, and Paul is making a case against "Works Alone Salvationism" because he was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism." (See: Galatians 2:3, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:5, 1 Corinthians 7:18-19, Romans 2:28-29, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Acts of the Apostles 21:21. Also see: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). (Note: Hover your cursor over the above verses to check them out).

 

[redleghunter]

I am not Armin and I don't call it an "enlightened state."

It's common grace. A rational creature,with personal volition can understand that they are in need of salvation(Acts 16:30.)
A rational creature, with personal volition can understand the simple Gospel.

The Gospel is rejected or accepted because His creatures are rational, with personal volition.(Acts 16:31.)

Paul did not tell the jailer, "Seek after God and you shall be saved." Paul told the jailer to believe what the Lord Jesus Christ did when seeking after mankind and salvation for them.(acts 16:31)

None seek after God, so God came for mankind with his salvation. And revealed it to all mankind.(common grace/whosoever can believe and be saved.)
John 12:32~~New American Standard Bible
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."


John 3:16~~New American Standard Bible
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Common Grace is the grace God bestows to all. Like rain, abundance of food etc.

If we are all in a fallen state what exactly makes us alive to hear the Gospel call?

 

[BNR32FAN]

God would have to agree with your thinking that you can sin and still be saved.

Who doesn’t sin? God knows I do no matter how hard I try not to. Everyone will fail to remain sinless.

Again you constantly refuse to address the thief on the cross. What’s this like the 4th time now? What works did the thief do?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So those who reject Christ are still dead in their sins. .

While those people who reject Christ are still dead in their sins if they rejected Him during the time God gave them the knowledge of the truth, they will at least know the gospel and who they have rejected. They are not totally without understanding at that point (because God has given them enough light for them to know the kind of truth that they have rejected) unless they choose to suppress the truth and forget about it.

But those who choose God are not a slave to sin but righteousness. That’s what I’m getting above.

How can that be? If a person (who has accepted Christ as their Savior) says they strive to not sin, and yet they will always sin as per an erroneous interpretation on 1 John 1:8 and they are even saved in those sins they happen to commit on occasion, how can they be a slave to righteousness? They are still committing sin and they are justifying that small amount of sin. That is not a slave (or servant) to righteousness but they would be a servant to unrighteousness because they are still sinning and justifying that sin under God's grace. Sure, they may not live an excessive sinful lifestyle, but they are saying they can sin on occasion and it is okay with God because they have a belief on Jesus. The Free Grace and Calvinistic camps say you cannot overcome grievous sin in this life. Therefore, we can conclude that they are preaching a double message and they are not really technically a slave to righteousness (as they claim).

This is good detail. Prevenient Grace by your estimation...

I didn't write the Bible. The Bible affirms Prevenient Grace. A person cannot come to God without a drawing and there are times where people hear the gospel and cannot understand it. Yet, we know Jesus tasted death for every man. That would be pointless if God did not make available a time for them to hear the gospel (with the understanding by His enlightenment). Scripture says Christ draws all men unto Himself. John 16:8-9 says the Holy Spirit reproves (convicts) the world (not the elect) of it's sin. How they respond to that conviction is up to them. It says, when He is come, He will reprove the world of it's sin...."

Prevenient Grace by your estimation is we have some semblance of living right with God and we are then extended this Grace?

I don't think we can make absolute rules based on one verse or two.
I see one particular truth expressed here:

John 3:21 says
"But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."​

This means a person who does truth (righteous things) his sinful deeds will be made manifest by the conviction of the Holy Spirit so as to get him to repent (i.e. to seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ). This is one scenario of possibility. If a man is truly seeking the truth and or truly believing in right and wrong in life, he will be convicted to repent of his own sins instead of trying to justify it. What is scary is that there are some who think they have come to Christ and they really have not. They accepted another Jesus (whereby they think they can sin and still be saved on some level). This is the only kind of Jesus that they have ever known. So when they read verses in the Bible, they are confused and have trouble explaining what those verses actually say. So they seek out their own church or other men of a similar belief in order to try and make sense out of it. When in reality, God's Word is learned by the Spirit (1 John 2:27) and by comparing Scripture with Scripture (1 Corinthians 2:13).

John 3:20 says,
"For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest [i.e. unless] his deeds should be reproved."​

Everyone who does evil hates the light and neither comes to the light unless his deeds are reproved or corrected by the Spirit. This would include even those who accepted a version of Jesus who justify sin on some level. They have not come to the true light of Jesus Christ as describe in the Bible. They hate this version of Jesus who requires them to live holy. They prefer a Jesus of their own imagining that makes for some allowance for sin in their life instead of totally selling out to Jesus and believing His Word in what it plainly says.

Side Note:

Another truth in Scripture expressed is that sometimes God can intervene in a person's life on their road to sin destroying them. They may not have exactly been seeking God and or doing truth, but God can intervene and convict them of their sin and save them. This is another scenario or possibility. For Scripture says Christ draws all men unto Himself.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Common Grace is the grace God bestows to all. Like rain, abundance of food etc.

And the simple gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
John 12:32~~New American Standard Bible
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
John 3:16~~New American Standard Bible
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

If we are all in a fallen state what exactly makes us alive to hear the Gospel call?

What exactly makes us able to hear the Gospel?~~~
Our God given rationality and personal volition.
Mark 6:6~~New American Standard Bible
And He wondered at their unbelief. And He was going around the villages teaching.

It is when we hear and BELIEVE the gospel that we are made alive.
Eph 1:13~~New American Standard Bible
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

'Believed.'~~Active voice. With our own personal volition we believe.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Who doesn’t sin? God knows I do no matter how hard I try not to. Everyone will fail to remain sinless.

Again you constantly refuse to address the thief on the cross. What’s this like the 4th time now? What works did the thief do?

We are living in the last days. Most do not walk by faith today but by sight. Luke 18:8 says, "...when the Son of man comes, shall he find faith on the earth?" This means that most are not truly following Jesus like they should (unfortunately).

Most laughed at Noah because they had never seen it rain hard enough to flood anything before.

They were walking by sight and not by faith.

Anyways, the Bible teaches that you can overcome grievous sin:

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13).

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).

“Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans 6:16 NLT).

“there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14).

“Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).

“Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4).

“For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.” (1 Thessalonians 4:7).

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.” (1 John 5:19).
​

Now, the choice is yours to either believe these verses (by faith) above or to walk by sight and not by faith (by pointing to the world around you).

 

[redleghunter]

While those people who reject Christ are still dead in their sins if they rejected Him during the time God gave them the knowledge of the truth, they will at least know the gospel and who they have rejected. They are not totally without understanding at that point (because God has given them enough light for them to know the kind of truth that they have rejected) unless they choose to suppress the truth and forget about it.



How can that be? If a person (who has accepted Christ as their Savior) says they strive to not sin, and yet they will always sin as per an erroneous interpretation on 1 John 1:8 and they are even saved in those sins they happen to commit on occasion, how can they be a slave to righteousness? They are still committing sin and they are justifying that small amount of sin. That is not a slave (or servant) to righteousness but they would be a servant to unrighteousness because they are still sinning and justifying that sin under God's grace. Sure, they may not live an excessive sinful lifestyle, but they are saying they can sin on occasion and it is okay with God because they have a belief on Jesus. The Free Grace and Calvinistic camps say you cannot overcome grievous sin in this life. Therefore, we can conclude that they are preaching a double message and they are not really technically a slave to righteousness (as they claim).



I didn't write the Bible. The Bible affirms Prevenient Grace. A person cannot come to God without a drawing and there are times where people hear the gospel and cannot understand it. Yet, we know Jesus tasted death for every man. That would be pointless if God did not make available a time for them to hear the gospel (with the understanding by His enlightenment). Scripture says Christ draws all men unto Himself. John 16:8-9 says the Holy Spirit reproves (convicts) the world (not the elect) of it's sin. How they respond to that conviction is up to them. It says, when He is come, He will reprove the world of it's sin...."



I don't think we can make absolute rules based on one verse or two.
I see one particular truth expressed here:

John 3:21 says
"But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."​

This means a person who does truth (righteous things) his sinful deeds will be made manifest by the conviction of the Holy Spirit so as to get him to repent (i.e. to seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ). This is one scenario of possibility. If a man is truly seeking the truth and or truly believing in right and wrong in life, he will be convicted to repent of his own sins instead of trying to justify it. What is scary is that there are some who think they have come to Christ and they really have not. They accepted another Jesus (whereby they think they can sin and still be saved on some level). This is the only kind of Jesus that they have ever known. So when they read verses in the Bible, they are confused and have trouble explaining what those verses actually say. So they seek out their own church or other men of a similar belief in order to try and make sense out of it. When in reality, God's Word is learned by the Spirit (1 John 2:27) and by comparing Scripture with Scripture (1 Corinthians 2:13).

John 3:20 says,
"For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest [i.e. unless] his deeds should be reproved."​

Everyone who does evil hates the light and neither comes to the light unless his deeds are reproved or corrected by the Spirit. This would include even those who accepted a version of Jesus who justify sin on some level. They have not come to the true light of Jesus Christ as describe in the Bible. They hate this version of Jesus who requires them to live holy. They prefer a Jesus of their own imagining that makes for some allowance for sin in their life instead of totally selling out to Jesus and believing His Word in what it plainly says.

Side Note:

Another truth in Scripture expressed is that sometimes God can intervene in a person's life on their road to sin destroying them. They may not have exactly been seeking God and or doing truth, but God can intervene and convict them of their sin and save them. This is another scenario or possibility. For Scripture says Christ draws all men unto Himself.

You address a lot of what I asked for. Thanks it helps understand how there are differing views of how some come to Christ and some don’t. However, the overarching question of why some do choose God and some choose to reject yet given the same “opportunity” is still unanswered.

For example you quoted John 3:20. Looking at the full context we have this:

John 3:

19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” (NASB)

From the context it shows there is one group who won’t even come to the Light and one who will.

This is what I was getting at. If this passage is truly addressing Prevenient Grace then it shows only those practicing truth will enter the Light. Those who do evil won’t come to the Light. In effect this cannot be Prevenient Grace as the ones who do evil never come to the Light.

The best we can get from these verses is the General call of the Gospel.

 

[redleghunter]

And the simple gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
John 12:32~~New American Standard Bible
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Yet not all people accept Christ right? My question has been why that happens.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life

The whoever is qualified as those who believe. Again some believe and some don’t and apparently according to some theological views we are all returned to pre-Fall free will yet still dead in our sins. Yet some believe and some don’t. Explain this please.

What exactly makes us able to hear the Gospel?~~~
Our God given rationality and personal volition.
Mark 6:6~~New American Standard Bible
And He wondered at their unbelief. And He was going around the villages teaching.

Right there were those who saw the miracles knew He was the Messiah yet still rejected Him. But some did believe in Him.

Once again the same question.

It is when we hear and BELIEVE the gospel that we are made alive.
Eph 1:13~~New American Standard Bible
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

'Believed.'~~Active voice. With our own personal volition we believe.

How can people dead spiritually “hear?”

Jesus in Luke 8:10 says to some it was given to understand His parables and to others not to understand.

Is that really an equal call to the Gospel?

 

[BNR32FAN]

We are living in the last days. Most do not walk by faith today but by sight. Luke 18:8 says, "...when the Son of man comes, shall he find faith on the earth?" This means that most are not truly following Jesus like they should (unfortunately).

Most laughed at Noah because they had never seen it rain hard enough to flood anything before.

They were walking by sight and not by faith.

Anyways, the Bible teaches that you can overcome grievous sin:

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13).

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).

“Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans 6:16 NLT).

“there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14).

“Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).

“Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4).

“For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.” (1 Thessalonians 4:7).

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.” (1 John 5:19).
​

Now, the choice is yours to either believe these verses (by faith) above or to walk by sight and not by faith (by pointing to the world around you).

Not a single one of those verses say we will not sin after becoming a Christian.

Why do you keep avoid my questions about the thief on the cross?

 

[BNR32FAN]

You address a lot of what I asked for. Thanks it helps understand how there are differing views of how some come to Christ and some don’t. However, the overarching question of why some do choose God and some choose to reject yet given the same “opportunity” is still unanswered.

For example you quoted John 3:20. Looking at the full context we have this:

John 3:

19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” (NASB)

From the context it shows there is one group who won’t even come to the Light and one who will.

This is what I was getting at. If this passage is truly addressing Prevenient Grace then it shows only those practicing truth will enter the Light. Those who do evil won’t come to the Light. In effect this cannot be Prevenient Grace as the ones who do evil never come to the Light.

The best we can get from these verses is the General call of the Gospel.

But who can say they have never done evil? All have sinned and fall short of God’s glory. I did all kinds of evil before coming to Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You address a lot of what I asked for. Thanks it helps understand how there are differing views of how some come to Christ and some don’t. However, the overarching question of why some do choose God and some choose to reject yet given the same “opportunity” is still unanswered.

For example you quoted John 3:20. Looking at the full context we have this:

John 3:

19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” (NASB)

From the context it shows there is one group who won’t even come to the Light and one who will.

This is what I was getting at. If this passage is truly addressing Prevenient Grace then it shows only those practicing truth will enter the Light. Those who do evil won’t come to the Light. In effect this cannot be Prevenient Grace as the ones who do evil never come to the Light.

The best we can get from these verses is the General call of the Gospel.

Context. Prevenient Grace is already established beforehand.

John 1:9 says,
“That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Not a single one of those verses say we will not sin after becoming a Christian.

Why do you keep avoid my questions about the thief on the cross?

No. Just because you say those verses do not mean what they say does not prove that you are correct. You have to explain word for word these verses.

I also answered the thief on the cross question in this thread already. The thief did good works. He was not ashamed of Jesus and he spoke in his defense.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Yet not all people accept Christ right? My question has been why that happens.

And How are you not seeing my answer? AGAIN~~

Because we are RATIONAL CREATURES WITH OUR OWN PERSONAL VOLITION.

Jesus Christ marveled at unbelief........BECAUSE HE CREATED RATIONAL CREATURES WITH PERSONAL VOLITION.