Can you lose your salvation?

[Alithis]

When he believed God and built the Ark.

Without getting in it?

 

[BNR32FAN]

You could have reduced that to:

• to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove
• to throw or let go of a thing without caring where it falls

I wouldn't say carelessly, I would say purposefully. Those trees are cast into the fire because they are worthless with regards to fruit. No problem, I doubt any of Jesus contemporaries missed his meaning. The fruit of the crop or the tree was vital, if the tree was defective it was gone. But even being unfruitful, yourself included, the obvious thing was to cast you into the fire. The answer came in the form of a puzzle, God's grace and human will, good luck with that one.

It's eternal life when the Holy Spirit says it is, that's as simple as I can make it. It don't change after that, I honestly believe that.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Yes I wanted to post the entire definition so people wouldn’t think I’m trying to omit the full definition in an attempt to mislead mislead them. I’m almost 100% sure if I hadn’t posted the entire definition someone would’ve accused me of trying to trick people into believing my point of view.

 

[BNR32FAN]

As I already explained, I don't think Paul did "evidently" believe that the Colossians could fail to continue in their faith. Nothing you've said in response here gives me reason to think I'm mistaken. And, again, Galatians 3:3 certainly supports my view.

In Galatians 3 and 4 Paul is urging them not to rely on obedience to the law to be made right with God because we must recognize Jesus as our Savior not our obedience. However this does not mean that we may live a sinful life and not produce any fruit and we will be saved simply by believing.


“For you have been called to live in freedom, my brothers and sisters. But don’t use your freedom to satisfy your sinful nature. Instead, use your freedom to serve one another in love. For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you are always biting and devouring one another, watch out! Beware of destroying one another. So I say, let the Holy Spirit guide your lives. Then you won’t be doing what your sinful nature craves. The sinful nature wants to do evil, which is just the opposite of what the Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are the opposite of what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, so you are not free to carry out your good intentions. But when you are directed by the Spirit, you are not under obligation to the law of Moses. When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God. But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things! Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. Since we are living by the Spirit, let us follow the Spirit’s leading in every part of our lives. Let us not become conceited, or provoke one another, or be jealous of one another.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13-26‬

He continues on this subject in chapter 6

“Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself. Share each other’s burdens, and in this way obey the law of Christ. If you think you are too important to help someone, you are only fooling yourself. You are not that important. Pay careful attention to your own work, for then you will get the satisfaction of a job well done, and you won’t need to compare yourself to anyone else. For we are each responsible for our own conduct. Those who are taught the word of God should provide for their teachers, sharing all good things with them. Don’t be misled—you cannot mock the justice of God. You will always harvest what you plant. Those who live only to satisfy their own sinful nature will harvest decay and death from that sinful nature. But those who live to please the Spirit will harvest everlasting life from the Spirit. So let’s not get tired of doing what is good. At just the right time we will reap a harvest of blessing if we don’t give up. Therefore, whenever we have the opportunity, we should do good to everyone—especially to those in the family of faith.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:1-10‬

If we don’t give up meaning if we abide in Christ as mentioned in John 15:1-10.

“And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other. And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people. Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:10-13‬

“And all nations will hate you because you are my followers. But everyone who endures to the end will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:22‬

“Be careful then, dear brothers and sisters. Make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning you away from the living God. You must warn each other every day, while it is still “today,” so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God. For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭3:12-14‬

““Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches. Whoever is victorious will not be harmed by the second death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:11‬

““But I also have a message for the rest of you in Thyatira who have not followed this false teaching (‘deeper truths,’ as they call them—depths of Satan, actually). I will ask nothing more of you except that you hold tightly to what you have until I come. To all who are victorious, who obey me to the very end, To them I will give authority over all the nations.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:24-26‬

 

[RDKirk]

In Galatians 3 and 4 Paul is urging them not to rely on obedience to the law to be made right with God because we must recognize Jesus as our Savior not our obedience. However this does not mean that we may live a sinful life and not produce any fruit and we will be saved simply by believing.‬

Paul issues 'way too many instructions to his congregations for anyone to honestly believe he really means to say "everything goes."

Paul explicitly defines what he means by "work" in Romans:

Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed. -- Romans 4:4

His letter to the Galatians is basically "Romans Lite," and he's saying the same thing. Some people perform certain acts, go though certain procedures, do certain things in the belief that by the things they do, they can obligate God to pay them eternal life. They think they can say, "God I did this and I did that, therefore you owe me eternal life."

The Mosaic Law was a contract of "work." God and the Isrealites had agreed in a covenant that if they performed certain acts, they would be rewarded with certain benefits. But by the 1st century, the Jews had come to realize that there was a benefit called "eternal life" alluded to in their covenant, but their covenant did not include it. So there was the question: "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" (Luke 18:18)

Well, logically, the only thing they had was the Law, so the Pharisees' answer to the question was: If you keep the letter of the Law in absolute perfection, and then God will owe you eternal life.

That's what Paul means by "work" and by "law."

 

[ToBeLoved]

Is not obedience required for eternal life according to Heb 5:9? Why do you think believers are referred to as sheep in the NT? I live next to sheep. They are not smart animals and need a shepherd to lead them as they are prone to wandering away and getting into trouble. Read Lk 15:4-7 and tell me what you think.

This doesn’t answer the question I asked.

You said Jesus is only interested in those sheep that listen and follow in obedience.

My verse showed that Jesus goes after lost sheep. That He will leave His sheep that listen and follow and go after the one lost one.

 

[aiki]

Ok first, I loved it. Secondly, let us yet be gracious.

Yeah, I was a bit taken aback by DerAlter's snippy "how-dare-you-tell-me-anything" response. My blunt reply reflected this. You're right, though: It's always better to be too gracious than not. Thanks for the exhortation.

 

[aiki]

In Galatians 3 and 4 Paul is urging them not to rely on obedience to the law to be made right with God because we must recognize Jesus as our Savior not our obedience. However this does not mean that we may live a sinful life and not produce any fruit and we will be saved simply by believing.

I agree with most of what you wrote here. Jesus is our Saviour, not our success in being obedient to God's commands. But you undercut this statement when you suggest that one cannot be saved by faith alone in Christ alone. You are right: Being saved does not mean we are free to live like the devil. Anyone who claims to be saved and intends to live in a sinful way belies their claim. But, it is by faith alone in Christ alone - totally apart from works - that a person is born-again. About this the Bible is very clear and explicit (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5; Galatians 2:16). Our good works are never going to be sufficient to obtain God's acceptance of us. We need perfect righteousness for that and none of us can attain to it. And so, Christ must impute his perfect righteousness to us so that God can accept us.

 

[Ron Gurley]

NO!

Parable of Sower
There is ONLY one CATEGORY of "seeds" that were truly saved.

Luke 8 (NASB)
15 But the seed in the good soil,
these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart,
and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

Galatians 5(NASB)
4 You (UN-believers) have been severed from Christ,
you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we (believers) through the Spirit, by FAITH (belief), are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For IN Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything,
but faith working through love.

You have been severed...Greek 2673...katargeo...
I.to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
A.to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
B.to deprive of force, influence, power
II.to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
A.to cease, to pass away, be done away
B.to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
C.to terminate all intercourse with one

PRUNE VINES: John 15 applies ONLY to Jesus'saved followers. FRUIT = WORKS!..Judgment of WORKS ONLY!


How And When To Prune A Grapevine

the most common mistake people make is not pruning hard enough. Light pruning doesn’t promote adequate fruiting whereas heavy pruning provides the greatest quality of grapes.
Knowing how to prune grapes can make the difference between a good crop and a bad one.
When pruning grapes, you’ll want to cut off as much of the "old wood" as possible.
This will encourage the growth of new wood, which is where the fruit is produced.
...pruning off the old wood and making way for "new fruiting wood"
is all that is needed for how and when to prune a grapevine.

PRUNING back to the "nub" of the believing "BRANCH" produces the MOST good "fruit/works"

Romans 11 is written about Nation Israel, NOT believers.

Romans 11(NASB)...Israel Is Not Cast Away
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be!
For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew...
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a REMNANT according to God’s gracious choice.
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace...
20 Quite right, they (legalistic ISRAEL) were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith...
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to ALL.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

Hebrews Passages: 2 are the most "troublesome"!
All refer to those who did not have true salvation.
Like the "seeds" not in "good soil", they suffer "apostasy", a "falling away", a loss of fellowship with God.

"APOSTASY: DEFINED...

Matthew 24:10(NASB)...Jesus:
“At that time (TRIBULATION of 3.5 years)
many (believers) will "fall away" and will betray one another and hate one another.

will fall away...Greek 4624..skandalizo...
I.to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall, metaph. to offend
A.to entice to sin
B.to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey
i.to cause to fall away
ii.to be offended in one, i.e. to see in another what I disapprove of and what hinders me from acknowledging his authority
iii.to cause one to judge unfavourably or unjustly of another
C.since one who stumbles or whose foot gets entangled feels annoyed
i.to cause one displeasure at a thing
ii.to make indignant
iii.to be displeased, indignant

"Falling Away": (THIS IS A FORGIVEABLE SIN!)

the apostasy...Greek 646...apostasia...a falling away, defection (THIS IS A FORGIVEABLE SIN!)

Hebrews 6:1[ The Peril of Falling Away ]
Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ,
let us press on to (spiritual) maturity,
NOT laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

2 Thess. 2:3
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it (SECOND COMING) will not come unless "the apostasy" comes first, and the "man of lawlessness" (THE anti-christ) is revealed, the "son of destruction",

to draw away ...suffered shipwreck...fall away...gone astray...destructive heresies (of UNbeleievers)...
fall from your own steadfastness...you may (NOT) receive a full reward...
wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang....
again entangled in them (sin) and are overcome...strays from the truth...
repent and do the deeds you did at first...
I will not erase his name from the (Lamb's)"book of life" (saved believers)...
lukewarm,(FAITH) and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth...

ALL of these snippets, even out of context, indicate TEMPORARY:
1. Loss of FELLOWSHIP:
...all saved believers sin after salvation, but are FORGIVEN and CLEANSED upon CONFESSION. 1 John 1
2. Loss of REWARDS:
believers are NOT JUDGED as their SPIRITUAL POSITION IN CHRIST.
oNLY Their "works" will be judged,

JUDGMENT Seat (bema=awards platform) of Jesus the Christ:
Judgment of the BELIEVER'S WORKS

2 Corinthians 5: 1-15 (NIV) + 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV)
10 For we (BELIEVERS) must all appear before the "judgment (bema = awards platform) seat of Christ",
that each one may receive what is due him for the things done (WORKS) while in the BODY, whether good or bad....

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV)...Judgment of the BELIEVER'S WORKS
1 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid,
which is Jesus Christ.(salvation)
12 If any man BUILDS on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 his WORK will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it (WORKS) to light.
It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's WORK.
14 If what he has BUILT survives, he will receive his REWARD.(CROWNS)
15 If it (WORK) is burned up, he will suffer LOSS;
he himself will be SAVED, but only as one escaping through the flames.(miraculous delivery)

Romans 14:1-23...BELIEVERS:....Do not judge one another
For to this end Christ died and lived again, so that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Why do you pass judgment on your brother or sister?
Or you, why do you despise your brother or sister?
For we will all stand before the "judgment seat of God".
For it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall give praise to God.”
So then, each of us will be accountable to God....
for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Paul issues 'way too many instructions to his congregations for anyone to honestly believe he really means to say "everything goes."

Paul explicitly defines what he means by "work" in Romans:

Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed. -- Romans 4:4

His letter to the Galatians is basically "Romans Lite," and he's saying the same thing. Some people perform certain acts, go though certain procedures, do certain things in the belief that by the things they do, they can obligate God to pay them eternal life. They think they can say, "God I did this and I did that, therefore you owe me eternal life."

The Mosaic Law was a contract of "work." God and the Isrealites had agreed in a covenant that if they performed certain acts, they would be rewarded with certain benefits. But by the 1st century, the Jews had come to realize that there was a benefit called "eternal life" alluded to in their covenant, but their covenant did not include it. So there was the question: "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" (Luke 18:18)

Well, logically, the only thing they had was the Law, so the Pharisees' answer to the question was: If you keep the letter of the Law in absolute perfection, and then God will owe you eternal life.

That's what Paul means by "work" and by "law."

I agree but in some cases Paul also refers to acts of kindness as works.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I agree with most of what you wrote here. Jesus is our Saviour, not our success in being obedient to God's commands. But you undercut this statement when you suggest that one cannot be saved by faith alone in Christ alone. You are right: Being saved does not mean we are free to live like the devil. Anyone who claims to be saved and intends to live in a sinful way belies their claim. But, it is by faith alone in Christ alone - totally apart from works - that a person is born-again. About this the Bible is very clear and explicit (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5; Galatians 2:16). Our good works are never going to be sufficient to obtain God's acceptance of us. We need perfect righteousness for that and none of us can attain to it. And so, Christ must impute his perfect righteousness to us so that God can accept us.

Amen but faith will produce repentance and good works or fruit. The reason I mention this is because there are some people who believe that all they have to do is believe that Jesus is their Savior and He will forgive all their sins and they use this as an excuse to live however they want. They go out and get drunk, go to strip clubs, participate in sexual immorality, curse like a sailor (no offense to any sailors who might read this), they have a quick temper and are eager to fight and engage in arguments. They show no signs of being born again and do not reflect Christ’s nature in them. These people have not become a new creation. I was once like this until God pulled me to Him for which I am forever grateful to Him. I used to believe in OSAS and in a sense I still do. There’s two ways you can look at OSAS. One way is that the book of life was written before creation and God had foreseen the outcome of everyone and only those who are victorious and endure to the end are written in the book of life. The book of life will not be edited because God has foreseen our outcome. So in this sense of someone’s name is in the book of life it will not be erased or blotted out. However a person can be on the path to salvation and turn away from God. If such a person doesn’t repent then they were not written in the book of life before creation. We don’t know who is written in and who isn’t. So in this sense I believe that OSAS is not true and that a person can believe and be on the path to salvation and fall from grace of their own free will. I see many verses that teach that nothing or no one can take away our salvation but I don’t see anything that says that we cannot choose to give up our salvation by turning away from God or refusing to obey Him.

 

[RDKirk]

I agree but in some cases Paul also refers to acts of kindness as works.

Not in the same argument. In Romans Paul gives us what is probably the same debate he had made countless times in the synagogues during his mission: That the Law gives Jews no special status above gentiles in gaining eternal life through faith in Christ. Being trained and experienced in debate tactics, he properly defines his terms.

That definition is valid for that debate. He was not necessarily using the term "work" in the same way outside the context of "salvation is a gift, not a wage."

For instance, in speaking to the Ephesians, Paul says:

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Different context here. Paul is not talking about doing things to obligate God to payment by eternal life.

 

[aiki]

Amen but faith will produce repentance and good works or fruit.

Well, I like to be careful about how I frame the things I believe. I wouldn't say that faith produces repentance and good works but that the Holy Spirit working in me does. (Philippians 2:13) Anyone who claims to be saved is claiming to be indwelt by God's Spirit. But if the Spirit has come to dwell within someone and they are not fundamentally and profoundly changed as a result, their claim is false. I think this is the case for a great many people within the Church. They claim to be saved but the unholy character of their living indicates otherwise.

There’s two ways you can look at OSAS. One way is that the book of life was written before creation and God had foreseen the outcome of everyone and only those who are victorious and endure to the end are written in the book of life.

Um, this isn't OSAS. OSAS rests the responsibility for a sinner's salvation upon God, not upon the sinner. Whenever you make a person's salvation at all contingent upon their effort, you have made their salvation their responsibility. But if we could attain salvation for ourselves, Christ didn't need to die. This is, in part, why Scripture absolutely rules out works-salvation.

However a person can be on the path to salvation and turn away from God.

See, I don't believe this. I think this idea that a person can turn away from God after they have been genuinely saved is the result of lowered expectations when it comes to the born-again experience. Why Christians should think that the Holy Spirit of the God of the Universe can come to dwell within someone but they can remain basically the same is a mystery to me. I suspect it has to do with how many false converts presently occupy the Church. There are all sorts of people claiming to be saved who aren't and when there is no evidence of God's presence within them, no clear transformation and experience of God, it is just assumed this is normal Christianity instead of there being serious doubt about the reality of the person's born-again status. I think all of these believers who walk away from God were never truly born-again.

So in this sense I believe that OSAS is not true and that a person can believe and be on the path to salvation and fall from grace of their own free will.

I'm not sure what you mean by "on the path to salvation." It sounds like you mean someone who is not yet saved. OSAS, though, isn't occupied with the condition of non-believers but with the eternal salvation of genuine children of God.

I see many verses that teach that nothing or no one can take away our salvation but I don’t see anything that says that we cannot choose to give up our salvation by turning away from God or refusing to obey Him.

Well, when Jesus said "No man can pluck them out of my hand," he meant NO ONE. This phrase is universal in scope and so necessarily includes the individual believer who you think can hand back their salvation.

As I've already explained, a person who wants to hand back their salvation reveals to me in their desire to do so that they aren't really saved.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Um, this isn't OSAS. OSAS rests the responsibility for a sinner's salvation upon God, not upon the sinner. Whenever you make a person's salvation at all contingent upon their effort, you have made their salvation their responsibility. But if we could attain salvation for ourselves, Christ didn't need to die. This is, in part, why Scripture absolutely rules out works-salvation.

Your confusing OSAS with faith alone. Faith alone means we are not saved by our works but by having faith in what Jesus did on the cross. OSAS means a person cannot turn away from God once they have received the Holy Spirit but the Bible warns us not to quench or stifle the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 6:4 is one example.

 

[BNR32FAN]

See, I don't believe this. I think this idea that a person can turn away from God after they have been genuinely saved is the result of lowered expectations when it comes to the born-again experience. Why Christians should think that the Holy Spirit of the God of the Universe can come to dwell within someone but they can remain basically the same is a mystery to me. I suspect it has to do with how many false converts presently occupy the Church. There are all sorts of people claiming to be saved who aren't and when there is no evidence of God's presence within them, no clear transformation and experience of God, it is just assumed this is normal instead of there being serious doubt about the reality of the person's born-again status. I think all of these believers who walk away from God were never truly born-again.

Hebrews 6:4-6 speaks about those who have been enlightened and partaken in the Holy Spirit and turn away from God. Jesus also warned about sinning against the Holy Spirit.

 

[RDKirk]

Your confusing OSAS with faith alone. Faith alone means we are not saved by our works but by having faith in what Jesus did on the cross. OSAS means a person cannot turn away from God once they have received the Holy Spirit but the Bible warns us not to quench or stifle the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 6:4 is one example.

Yes. I firmly believe in faith alone.

Jesus clearly indicates that we control our faith, so I'm not at all sure we can't completely dismiss it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

the most common mistake people make is not pruning hard enough. Light pruning doesn’t promote adequate fruiting whereas heavy pruning provides the greatest quality of grapes.
Knowing how to prune grapes can make the difference between a good crop and a bad one.
When pruning grapes, you’ll want to cut off as much of the "old wood" as possible.
This will encourage the growth of new wood, which is where the fruit is produced.
...pruning off the old wood and making way for "new fruiting wood"
is all that is needed for how and when to prune a grapevine.

PRUNING back to the "nub" of the believing "BRANCH" produces the MOST good "fruit/works

It is God The Father who does the pruning not us brother. He prunes the branches (believers) that produce fruit so they will produce more fruit and cuts off the branches (also believers) that do not produce fruit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm not sure what you mean by "on the path to salvation." It sounds like you mean someone who is not yet saved. OSAS, though, isn't occupied with the condition of non-believers but with the eternal salvation of genuine children of God.

Our salvation is contingent on continuing in our faith. It is not a one time event. We must endure to the end to receive salvation. No one receives salvation until they die or judgement day comes.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well, when Jesus said "No man can pluck them out of my hand," he meant NO ONE. This phrase is universal in scope and so necessarily includes the individual believer who you think can hand back their salvation.

As I've already explained, a person who wants to hand back their salvation reveals to me in their desire to do so that they aren't really saved.

Let’s say your standing in God’s hand. Yes no one can’t take you away but there’s nothing stopping you from jumping out yourself. Do you believe we lose our free will when we receive the Holy Spirit? Do we then lose our ability to choose to turn away from God?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes. I firmly believe in faith alone.

Jesus clearly indicates that we control our faith, so I'm not at all sure we can't completely dismiss it.

There are a few ways to view faith alone. There are those who believe you don’t have to do any good works at all to be saved. Then there are those who realize that faith produces works and an absence of works indicates an absence of faith. James 2:14-26 is a prime example as well as John 15:1-10. Matthew 25:31-46 the goats are condemned for not doing good works. They didn’t abide as Jesus mentioned in John 15.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well, I like to be careful about how I frame the things I believe. I wouldn't say that faith produces repentance and good works but that the Holy Spirit working in me does. (Philippians 2:13) Anyone who claims to be saved is claiming to be indwelt by God's Spirit. But if the Spirit has come to dwell within someone and they are not fundamentally and profoundly changed as a result, their claim is false. I think this is the case for a great many people within the Church. They claim to be saved but the unholy character of their living indicates otherwise.



Um, this isn't OSAS. OSAS rests the responsibility for a sinner's salvation upon God, not upon the sinner. Whenever you make a person's salvation at all contingent upon their effort, you have made their salvation their responsibility. But if we could attain salvation for ourselves, Christ didn't need to die. This is, in part, why Scripture absolutely rules out works-salvation.



See, I don't believe this. I think this idea that a person can turn away from God after they have been genuinely saved is the result of lowered expectations when it comes to the born-again experience. Why Christians should think that the Holy Spirit of the God of the Universe can come to dwell within someone but they can remain basically the same is a mystery to me. I suspect it has to do with how many false converts presently occupy the Church. There are all sorts of people claiming to be saved who aren't and when there is no evidence of God's presence within them, no clear transformation and experience of God, it is just assumed this is normal instead of there being serious doubt about the reality of the person's born-again status. I think all of these believers who walk away from God were never truly born-again.



I'm not sure what you mean by "on the path to salvation." It sounds like you mean someone who is not yet saved. OSAS, though, isn't occupied with the condition of non-believers but with the eternal salvation of genuine children of God.



Well, when Jesus said "No man can pluck them out of my hand," he meant NO ONE. This phrase is universal in scope and so necessarily includes the individual believer who you think can hand back their salvation.

As I've already explained, a person who wants to hand back their salvation reveals to me in their desire to do so that they aren't really saved.

Really good post.