2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[BNR32FAN]

We've been through this all before. Don't you remember anything I post? Or, maybe you just don't read what I post.

And WHO CARES what the early church fathers wrote? Don't you care what Jesus said? Or Paul? Or Peter? All 3 taught eternal security.


You are wrong because you clearly don't believe what Jesus said in many passages, the clearest one being John 10:28.

Here are the FACTS:
1. whoever believes POSSESSES (now, currently) eternal life. John 5:24, 6;47, 1 Jn 5;11, 13 say exactly that.

2. Eternal life is given by Jesus. John 10:28a

3. Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28b

By spouting the idea that salvation can be lost, you are only rejecting what Jesus said.

I wouldn't read any of the early church fathers. But I do read my Bible every day.

btw, I read from Acts through Revelation every month. Have done so for over a decade.

There are no verses that plainly state anything about losing salvation.

Like I said you have no early church writings at all to support your claim. If what your saying is true then the Church was silent for 1500 years. There’s no way around it. That would mean the Holy Spirit allowed everyone to be misled for 1500+ years. The apostles established churches for a reason. The early church fathers didn’t quote scriptures in the beginning they taught what the apostles taught them face to face and passed that teaching down over the centuries. You have nothing to back up your interpretation of the scriptures. You look at them in a way that fits your beliefs instead of looking at what the early church actually taught and comparing that to the scriptures. You said it yourself “who cares what the early church taught?” That’s your problem. You’ll never see the truth with that attitude. The questions you should be asking is am I right in my beliefs and what did the early church really teach? Where is the true Church of God and where has it been since the beginning? You completely disregard the church as if it is completely irrelevant and useless instead of studying about its history. Why would any true Christian not care about what happened to the original apostolic Church of God? Perhaps they can’t find any evidence that the Church of God taught what they believe because they can’t misinterpret their writings.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Gripped by a position

Emotions enslave us to a position, because are scared of letting go and risking changing our position. I have been there. But if Jesus is the truth only in risking it all will we find Him.

So many times I have found I was imprisoned by my position, but when I saw it from a different perspective, it set me free.

The gap between perfection and where we are?
Either this is impossible to close or Jesus has closed it, we just cannot yet see it clearly.

For the thief on the cross to be with Jesus, He has closed it. It is about our emotional and spiritual position. Maybe our emotions are like prison bars or open doors. With prison bars nothing goes in or out and nothing can change. Open doors mean we can experience so much, and the Lord suggest and we follow.

When you clean a vessel does that vessel feel clean or is it just clean?
So Jesus forgives us, the slate is blank, literally empty. Why would we want to fill it again?
Jesus implies in everyday life we easily get dirty feet, but these issues can be resolved by a simple wash. So what we think as being perfection, is not, rather that is idealism, where as Jesus's way is open expression, with the ability to forgive what things do not go as expected.

The disciples were not staggard by how different Jesus was, rather they saw Him as a loving man, walking and being with them. His words cleansed them, brought them into a balance of life to see what mattered and what did not. I have long suspected we idiolize perfection and scripture not seeing it as simple and something right in front of us.

Listening to the enemy, is listening to the small things and letting them grow into serious relationship issues which finally lead to sinful behaviour. We feel so worn down, its impossible even to think straight or to actually love and see others as they are alongside ourselves. But Jesus can lead us to this place, so we walk blamelessly.

Listen to how the enemy has defeated some. Oh we can never walk like Jesus, we can just hope Jesus covers our continual and persistent sin which is never resolved. Ofcourse victory becomes far off.
Jesus will wash it away, except He cannot because we have closed our hearts off to allow Him to change us. Such a small lie, yet so destructive.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Like I said you have no early church writings at all to support your claim.

Like we have said.........we have the bible that supports what we say. The shmorshodox church can rely on their writings.

If what your saying is true then the Church was silent for 1500 years.

His Church is just fine and has always been fine and has never been silenced. The real question is why won't the majority LISTEN?

It Just seems that His Church has been silenced. The mainstream 'churches' and mainstream thought of the day.........do their best to silence His truth, and Hide His truth. But if there is a believer who WANTS His truth, He will give it to them.<<<<There is just very few who WANT it.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Emotions enslave us to a position

And you have given us a textbook example of this. FACT'S don't mean squat to someone who is driven by their emotions.

John 10:28 and Never Perish? It doesn't really mean that, because what if________________?

 

[Gr8Grace]

How am I twisting what you said?

Go read your posts. Where did I say the Holy Spirit was silenced for 1500 years? Where did I say that bibles were not handed out......Just to mention a couple.

There are no early church father’s writings that support OSAS.

Can you prove this statement? I am going to guess that you can't, and then ask me to disprove your claim. And It is sad that the majority of the early church fathers remained as babes in Christ and never advanced in their doctrine..........Because even today, they keep MANY believers as babes.

If you are correct then the church either remained silent and hidden for 1500 years or was silenced by evil churches. Am I wrong and if so how?

His church was never hidden or silenced........but the evil(do good by human effort) churches tried their best to silence them.......seems you have been duped by them.

FreeGrace and I are not silenced or hidden. You can believe what the bible says or stay with your shmorshodox writings.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Can you prove this statement? I am going to guess that you can't, and then ask me to disprove your claim.

How can I produce evidence that doesn’t exist? This is beyond ridiculous.

 

[LightLoveHope]

And you have given us a textbook example of this. FACT'S don't mean squat to someone who is driven by their emotions.

John 10:28 and Never Perish? It doesn't really mean that, because what if________________?

If you do not know how emotions are working in your life how do you know you are not just deluded by your feelings.

How do you know you have done the right thing? You feel it. You go through the facts, and each fact falls into its emotional place, you are happy with the conclusion. The illusion is you are talking facts, but it is all emotional.

How do people belong? They feel it. When things irritate you, frustrate you, mean you cannot literally sit still, it is not facts that are doing this, it is emotions. We can only do anything when we feel at peace, safe, in a good place. Everything is tagged with some feeling.

So our emotions scale the meaning of things to us. So Christ and the cross, when we know Jesus opens us up, and brings us to a place of Holiness and purity. So all I can say is if you truly think emotions are something wrong, you have not begun to perceive who we are and who Christ is to His people. Praise the Lord, He is the liberator, the healer, the one who wants His people to know how to love and be in communion with Him and everyone.

 

[LightLoveHope]

What is a nervous breakdown?
The network of loyalties, feelings, conflicts and resolutions is in flux and chaos.
If one does not listen to what one is, and let Jesus through obedience put things in the right place we are building on sand, and it he storm our selves will collapse.

Building our house upon a rock, is more that just ideas or a nice thing to do, it is also emotional life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"But since you think so, please explain what the Holy Spirit showed you about John 10:28 then."

This is a serious problem. People interpret many things, but to talk against the Holy Spirit is dangerous territory.

Aren't you paying attention? You said you have learned from the Holy Spirit about interpreting Scripture. So I asked about what He has shown you about John 10:28.

Or, haven't you got there yet, in your lessons?

Why would you even mention "talking against the Holy Spirit"?

I have met people who have spoken like this and ship wrecked their faith because they are speaking about spiritual Kingdoms and Gods moving within them.

Again, I will remind you that I'm not in the least interested in any of these "other people" that you like to keep bringing up.

Can't you just focus on what I believe?

If what is shared aligns with Gods will and uplifts Jesus and His victory, amen, the Lord is moving. The Lord uses the strangest of situations and people, even when they are literally not following His will, because God is sovereign.

OK, so it seems your position is that the Holy Spirit hasn't shown you anything yet about John 10:28.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Can people touch in understanding and insight?
I would say yes, if they both care for each other.

What matters more, the subject or the way of discussion?
When a question is asked, is the answer expected or it is just a way of creating a discussion point where the questioner dominates, intending to ask the impossible question.
It that situation there is no answer, because the questioner is not interested in an answer except the one they want. But this is not really a discussion at all.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"And WHO CARES what the early church fathers wrote? Don't you care what Jesus said? Or Paul? Or Peter? All 3 taught eternal security."

Like I said you have no early church writings at all to support your claim.

Why would I need their writings? I don't care what they wrote. And you have only affirmed what I have read about from scholars.

Why aren't you as interested in what Jesus, Paul and Peter said in Scripture?

If what your saying is true then the Church was silent for 1500 years. There’s no way around it.

Facts are facts. But then, you haven't been interested in facts, but only feelings.

That would mean the Holy Spirit allowed everyone to be misled for 1500+ years.

There's always been biblically based believers. But just not the organized ones, like the RCC.

The apostles established churches for a reason.

Of course they had a reason. They were commanded by the Lord Jesus Christ.

The early church fathers didn’t quote scriptures in the beginning they taught what the apostles taught them face to face and passed that teaching down over the centuries.

Why don't you educate yourself and actually read all the epistles. Then you'll learn that the letters were circulated to many other churches. And by the 2nd century, all semblance of grace had all but disappeared from the writings of those early church fathers.

You have nothing to back up your interpretation of the scriptures.

Are you kidding? I use Scripture that SAYS what I believe.

Unlike yourself. How many verses do you include in your posts? Almost none.

And i have to repeatedly ask for verses that support your claims, and you never provide any.

You look at them in a way that fits your beliefs instead of looking at what the early church actually taught and comparing that to the scriptures.

You see, that's where we are so far apart. While you fawn over these "early church fathers", I diligently study the Scriptures itself. So my beliefs are formed by what I read in Scripture. While your theology is determined by these ECF's.

You said it yourself “who cares what the early church taught?” That’s your problem.

No, not mine. It's yours. The ECF's got derailed early on.

You’ll never see the truth with that attitude.

The ECF's didn't have the truth.

The questions you should be asking is am I right in my beliefs and what did the early church really teach?

I don't care what the ECF's taught. I care IMMENSELY what the Bible says. Why is that not clear to you?

Where is the true Church of God and where has it been since the beginning?

I wasn't there since the beginning, and I don't care. The point is, we STILL have the Bible itself, which is what I study, unike yourself.

You completely disregard the church as if it is completely irrelevant and useless instead of studying about its history.

What do you mean by "the church"? There has NEVER been one true church, except the original churches founded by the apostles. And some of them said that false teachers had already gotten into the churches.

This is what Scripture says:

Acts 20:29 - I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. said Paul

2 Pet 2:1 - But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. said Peter

Jude 1:4 - For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. said Jude

So there you have it, straight from Scripture itself. But you are free to ignore and focus on what the ECF's believed.

Why would any true Christian not care about what happened to the original apostolic Church of God?

Just read the verses above, which prove that false teachers had ALREADY infiltrated the church, even as Scripture was being written.

Perhaps they can’t find any evidence that the Church of God taught what they believe because they can’t misinterpret their writings.

It's the Bible's very plain language that I focus on. Unlike yourself.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Can't you just focus on what I believe?

I am interested in what the Lord wants us to understand in His will.
If you can bring light to this, Amen.

I hope you understand, I am not your disciple or going to follow you, sorry to disappoint.
What I have learnt through sharing is the Lord opens my eyes to new things.

Today it is small things that we run ourselves down on, when the Lord has purified and cleansed us, but we so easily condemn and write ourselves off.

Imagine this. People stand by a door and argue they cannot enter in because the door is closed, they are not able to achieve the impossible and walk in and claim the gift they have been given. But the door is open and the way cleared. It is only the lack of faith and belief that stops them. What if they are wrong? What a disaster will befall them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Gripped by a position

Emotions enslave us to a position, because are scared of letting go and risking changing our position. I have been there.

Which has been my position all along. Emotions are very dangerous for this very reason. Stick with facts. And the Bible speaks facts.

So many times I have found I was imprisoned by my position, but when I saw it from a different perspective, it set me free.

No, you're still imprisoned by your emotions.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What is a nervous breakdown?

An emotional breakdown.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am interested in what the Lord wants us to understand in His will.
If you can bring light to this, Amen.

That's what I've been doing, but you aren't accepting.

I hope you understand, I am not your disciple or going to follow you, sorry to disappoint.

I'm glad you aren't. No one should. But all believers are to be disciples of Jesus Christ, and study the Bible diligently.

 

[LightLoveHope]

It's the Bible's very plain language that I focus on. Unlike yourself.

As an observation, is there value is these judgements, put downs, claims of knowledge of anothers approach. It just speaks to me of arrogance and self belief, which are both dangerous approaches.

It is also strange to use such language against people who are open and honest before God and His word. It is like saying you are wrong because you disagree with my conclusions, and I must be better at staying true to the truth because of it.

To find the truth, one has to admit one can be wrong, that others help us see another perspective and those who wish to explore, investigate and search for Gods will should be celebrated and encouraged, even when people do not agree, because in the end we will meet the Lord and find the ultimate resolution in Him, Halleluyah.

 

[LightLoveHope]

That's what I've been doing, but you aren't accepting.

Hi Free, you are very confident of your position, but confidence does not make it true or right.

 

[JLB777]

I see that you have not abandoned your dishonesty. I've been explaining John 15 to you in many threads over the years. But you just refuse to acknowledge that.

That’s just it, Freegrace.

I’m not asking you to “explain” anything about John 15:6.

I’m well aware of your attempts to “explain” John 15:6, where you say
Cast into the fire and burned, really means “removed from Christian service”. LOL!!!!!


I’m asking you to answer my question.

I have asked several questions on this thread, to which you keep ignoring, and try to “explain” what the verse means.


I even answered my question so you could see what a straight answer looks like.


Here it is again.




If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6


Based on these words of the Lord Jesus -


Do you believe a person who is in Christ, then is removed from Christ, still has eternal life?





The answer is either yes or no.




JLB

 

[Gr8Grace]

If you do not know how emotions are working in your life how do you know you are not just deluded by your feelings.

Which is what we are trying to show you. We know how our emotions work. We are pointing out how emotions delude and sorry Peter, but you are giving us a text book example of just how far our emotions WILL delude us.

Never perish turns into might perish if we are deluded by our emotions.

 

[Gr8Grace]

How can I produce evidence that doesn’t exist? This is beyond ridiculous.

By proving that it doesn't exist................Absolutely, every single, ALL, persons in this time frame claimed that eternal security is a farce? You have studied and researched EVERY single theologian and teacher in this time frame? Please show us ALL of them and their stance.