2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"It's the Bible's very plain language that I focus on. Unlike yourself."

As an observation, is there value is these judgements, put downs, claims of knowledge of anothers approach.

My statement is based on an observation of your posts. Facts. You focus on feelings. No put-downs, etc. Just facts.

It just speaks to me of arrogance and self belief, which are both dangerous approaches.

Seems a lot "speaks" to you. But truth is found only in the Bible, not in one's feelings.

It is also strange to use such language against people who are open and honest before God and His word.

Have you been honest about the FACT that you don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28? Or do you just ignore that fact?

It is like saying you are wrong because you disagree with my conclusions, and I must be better at staying true to the truth because of it.

Nope, not at all. The FACT is, truth is FACT. Not feelings. Those who don't accept the FACTS presented in the Bible need to be challenged.

To find the truth, one has to admit one can be wrong, that others help us see another perspective and those who wish to explore, investigate and search for Gods will should be celebrated and encouraged, even when people do not agree, because in the end we will meet the Lord and find the ultimate resolution in Him, Halleluyah.

Without a doubt, I, along with the rest of humanity, can and are wrong on issues.

That's why I focus on the FACTS that are found in the Bible. To keep me from getting sidetracked on false issues.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hi Free, you are very confident of your position, but confidence does not make it true or right.

Of course not. I've posted to many people with your ideas who were very confident as well, but that doesn't make them right either.

The proof of who is right is based on comparing what they believe and post with what the Bible says. Nothing else.

You have not supported your claims with Scripture.

 

[Gr8Grace]

That’s just it, Freegrace.

I’m not asking you to “explain” anything about John 15:6.

I’m well aware of your attempts to “explain” John 15:6, where you say
Cast into the fire and burned, really means “removed from Christian service”. LOL!!!!!


I’m asking you to answer my question.

I have asked several questions on this thread, to which you keep ignoring, and try to “explain” what the verse means.


I even answered my question so you could see what a straight answer looks like.


Here it is again.




If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6


Based on these words of the Lord Jesus -


Do you believe a person who is in Christ, then is removed from Christ, still has eternal life?





The answer is either yes or no.




JLB

Have you stopped beating your wife yet? YES OR NO.

It is amazing that you can even take yourself seriously anymore. Paul specifically says to some believers that they are removed from Christ and STILL considers them brothers.

Your theology is the epitome of hating your brother. You really should praise and thank God that your theology is INCORRECT, because your theology tosses you into the LoF forever.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"I see that you have not abandoned your dishonesty. I've been explaining John 15 to you in many threads over the years. But you just refuse to acknowledge that."

That’s just it, Freegrace.

I’m not asking you to “explain” anything about John 15:6.

So? You sure are in need of a whole lot of explaining, since you know nothing of what John 15:6 is teaching.

I’m well aware of your attempts to “explain” John 15:6, where you say
Cast into the fire and burned, really means “removed from Christian service”.

Go ahead and wear out your quote marks. Because of what Jesus said in John 10:28, your "understanding" of John 15 cannot be correct.

I’m asking you to answer my question.

And I've given it over and over.

I have asked several questions on this thread, to which you keep ignoring, and try to “explain” what the verse means.

When are you going to answer my question?

Have you stopped beating your wife yet? yes or no

I even answered my question so you could see what a straight answer looks like.

Your question is bogus, as it assumes that a sealed believer can be unsealed, which is just plain blasphemy against the Bible.

So again, have you stopped beating your wife yet? yes or no

 

[FreeGrace2]

Have you stopped beating your wife yet? YES OR NO.

It is amazing that you can even take yourself seriously anymore. Paul specifically says to some believers that they are removed from Christ and STILL considers them brothers.

Your theology is the epitome of hating your brother. You really should praise and thank God that your theology is INCORRECT, because your theology tosses you into the LoF forever.

His problem is that he will never accept the biblical teaching about fellowship with the Lord, and that it can be severed, just as the fellowship between husband and wife can be severed when the husband beats his wife.

Speaking of which, why won't he answer my simple question: has he stopped beating his wife yet? yes or no

I wonder what he is trying to hide?

 

[LightLoveHope]

You have not supported your claims with Scripture.

For you I quote Jesus,

He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.
Matthew 12:39-41

If walking righteously has no appeal and calling others to be the light of love of Christ in ones heart, there is no scripture that you cannot turn to justify your view.

God has made His word and His calling so only the elect will listen and follow.

Why was the prophet given two commands? So he could be tested as to whether his loyalty was to God or to his position and whatever was said to him.

To a world full of sinners blind to sin, saying sin is no problem is music to their ears.
In a rich society, where there is little pressure or cost on behaviour, it is easy to fake being nice, so a small step to fake being a believer and taking all the benefits on oneself.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Your theology is the epitome of hating your brother. You really should praise and thank God that your theology is INCORRECT, because your theology tosses you into the LoF forever.

Here is the insanity of the position of security in Christ believers.
They claim no matter the sin or belief change they are secure in Christ forever.
So here is a believer who once believed like them, ie secure in Christ.
He has come to believe we need to know Jesus and walk in His ways to enter heaven, to abide in Him, to be a living part of the vine, to grow in the Kingdom and bear its fruit.

But now he is doomed to the lake of fire forever.
So they are actually lying about their own beliefs and position.
How you believe effects your destination by this very confession.

This shows their judgementalism and grand standing, while claiming they are not judging people or condemning them as unbelievers. It is hypocracy to claim you cannot lose your salvation if you believe at any point like them, and then to condemn an ex-believer in their position as doomed to hell.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Hating a brother

In the theology of security believers, to point out sin in a brother or sister is evil, judgementalism, dooming them to hell. It this twisted version, showing sin that condemns us to judgement and Christ is the answer, is the enemy of the gospel.

What does scripture say we should do

If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.
But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Matt 18:15-17

It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality;
that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable,
not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God;
and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you.
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thessalonians 4:3-7

Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.
1 Thess 4:8

Rejecting God is simple, you take His word and do not follow a holy life.

In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."
Heb 12:4-6

If one no longer struggles against sin, one is living in the world as the world lives and have abandoned Jesus.

 

[LightLoveHope]

My statement is based on an observation of your posts. Facts. You focus on feelings. No put-downs, etc. Just facts.

A put down is simply to say someone is wrong, or contradict them, or miss-quote them, or miss-represent them.

The sentence you have written, is again an attempt at a put down. You have the facts, I only have feelings. Something like this is so transparent it is a joke. And it does not work once pointed out.

There is a spirit among certain groups to use critical thinking is evil and wrong. There is only one "correct" view, the "teacher" knows best, just accept it.

Jesus brought us love, His word and free will. He desires we test, meditate, understand and know He is good, righteous, Holy, worthy of Honour and truly loves us, with His whole being.

But this is tempered with truth, justice and judgement. So we must walk in the fulfilment of the law, love empowered by the cross and the Holy Spirit. With an open heart, love will flow from us like a stream to all we meet. This is His people and His life. This is eternity, and what He desires to bring us into. And the sign it has arrived is a community that truly loves one another.

This is hard, not because it cannot be done, but because it requires forgiveness, patience, commitment, the Holy Spirit, transformation, struggling with passions, becoming mature in the Lord. Deeper still, a compromised gospel, sin does not matter is never going to build the body of Christ or bring cleansing and holiness to mens heart.

It is also why those who oppose righteous walking oppose God.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Your question is bogus, as it assumes that a sealed believer can be unsealed, which is just plain blasphemy against the Bible.

Again here is judgementalism. To not accept their position of being a certain type of believer is blasphemy.

This does not encourage critical thinking or even open discussion. If you are part of this group with a doubt that maybe God wants us to live a Holy life, it is blasphemy.

The whole church that teach from scripture that God loves righteous walking, and judges men for their sins, is now blasphemy.

So this is a divisive group whose aim is to split churches, to destroy the faith of faithful believers, and to exalt sinful behaviour as acceptable before a Holy God.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Gods strategy

People are saved through trusting Christ and the cross for the forgiveness of their sins.
Opps, their sins are already forgiven, without any faith position, so people are saved through trusting in Christ that He loves them.

They can live say and do whatever they like, not under the law, murder, blaspheme, persecute christians, burn bibles, destroy everything God represents and still be brought into heaven.

So to establish the Kingdom of Heaven, God will choose people who will destroy the Kingdom and the word and the gospel and call them friends, bless them and help them in their lives despite them being Gods enemies in the most literal sense possible.

So in this theology, God is unbelievably stupid and self destructive in building His own Kingdom and undermining the work of the cross.

Now if people are no longer trusting Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, that there is no value in repentance, because sins are already forgiven, that God can transform the worst sinner into a perfect saint at the resurrection, are they believers at all?

In a true biblical sense they are just sinners doomed to judgement and have no desire to be Holy, pure, blameless people of God. They are self declared enemies of such people.

I praise God, literally that He allows us to choose Him above people, or teachers or the world, and offer us salvation through the cross and the forgiveness of our sins. Halleluyah the His blood cleanses our consciences from the sins of our past, amen.

Let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.
Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.
And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.
Heb 10:22-24

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"You have not supported your claims with Scripture."

For you I quote Jesus,

How ironic! I have been quoting Jesus repeatedly on eternal security for every recipient of eternal life, but you still think that one's lifestyle voids it.

He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.
Matthew 12:39-41

And how does this passage support your view that lifestyle is the bottom line on who gets into heaven?

If walking righteously has no appeal and calling others to be the light of love of Christ in ones heart, there is no scripture that you cannot turn to justify your view.

You haven't yet expressed my views correctly.

For eternal security from the moment of faith, there are a lot of verses. However, John 10:28 just happens to be the very best verse. Most clear and straightforward.

You believe there are conditions to be met for eternal security to be true. Jesus gave no such conditions between being given eternal life and never perishing.

God has made His word and His calling so only the elect will listen and follow.

Aren't you aware that for NT believers, they aren't even elect UNTIL they believe?

Why was the prophet given two commands? So he could be tested as to whether his loyalty was to God or to his position and whatever was said to him.

Do you actually believe that God must test people in order to know things? Seriously?

To a world full of sinners blind to sin, saying sin is no problem is music to their ears.

Why do you seem to think that my view is that "sin is no problem"? You see, this is the significant problem with you. You keep making these very stupid remarks.

Sin is the reason Jesus had to go to the cross. Do you have any idea what Jesus did on the cross regarding the sin problem of humanity? Please share.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here is the insanity of the position of security in Christ believers.
They claim no matter the sin or belief change they are secure in Christ forever.

Once again, I will quote Jesus on the subject of eternal security:

I give them eternal life and they shall never perish.

The red words are the CAUSE of having eternal life, and the blue words are the EFFECT or RESULT of having eternal life.

Now, please count the number of conditions that Jesus listed between the red words and the blue words.

How many conditions did Jesus include?

So here is a believer who once believed like them, ie secure in Christ.
He has come to believe we need to know Jesus and walk in His ways to enter heaven, to abide in Him, to be a living part of the vine, to grow in the Kingdom and bear its fruit.

But now he is doomed to the lake of fire forever.

Why would he be? Did Jesus LIE in John 10:28? What?

 

[FreeGrace2]

A put down is simply to say someone is wrong, or contradict them, or miss-quote them, or miss-represent them.

No, a put-down is an insult, like saying:
You are ugly, you are stupid, you are worthless, etc. I suggest consulting a dictionary for proper definitions of words.

The sentence you have written, is again an attempt at a put down.

When a person is wrong, that is a fact, not a put-down.

You have the facts, I only have feelings.

Well, that's what you keep admitting to. And you have shown very little interest in facts.

There is a spirit among certain groups to use critical thinking is evil and wrong. There is only one "correct" view, the "teacher" knows best, just accept it.

The only correct view is what the Bible says.

Jesus brought us love, His word and free will. He desires we test, meditate, understand and know He is good, righteous, Holy, worthy of Honour and truly loves us, with His whole being.

In all your flowery writings, you keep missing the main point of why Jesus came to earth. He came to die for our sins and give us eternal life, which saves us from the lake of fire. Why do you keep missing that?

 

[LightLoveHope]

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
Romans 2:7-8

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
Romans 6:22

The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Galatians 6:8

Eternal life is reaped by those who sow to the Spirit, and not to the sinful nature.
It cannot be clearer. Walk in the ways of the Kingdom, because you belong to the Kingdom and you will reap its reward.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Your question is bogus, as it assumes that a sealed believer can be unsealed, which is just plain blasphemy against the Bible."

Again here is judgementalism. To not accept their position of being a certain type of believer is blasphemy.

When a view is in direct opposition to what Scripture SAYS, that is blasphemy. But you can call it whatever you desire.

This does not encourage critical thinking or even open discussion.

It's designed to challenge the blasphemer.

The whole church that teach from scripture that God loves righteous walking, and judges men for their sins, is now blasphemy.

I have no idea what you are referring to.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Gods strategy

People are saved through trusting Christ and the cross for the forgiveness of their sins.
Opps, their sins are already forgiven, without any faith position, so people are saved through trusting in Christ that He loves them.

If you think this supposedly "clever" statement reflects my views, you are as wrong as you can be.

No one is saved apart from faith. I hope you are paying attention here. So whatever your statement was directed at, it sure isn't me.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Romans 2:7-8

Romans 6:22

Galatians 6:8

Eternal life is reaped by those who sow to the Spirit, and not to the sinful nature.

Do you understand (discern) the fact that "reaping" requires effort? So, just what do these 3 passages refer to? It is reaping eternal life. Something is earned on the basis of reaping. We know that salvation is NOT earned, it's given by grace.

So, to reap eternal life is speaking of receiving reward in heaven (eternity) on the basis of one's efforts.

It cannot be clearer. Walk in the ways of the Kingdom, because you belong to the Kingdom and you will reap its reward.

Correct. Reaping results in a reward. Faith in Christ results in salvation, which is not by works.

 

[JLB777]

I said:
"I see that you have not abandoned your dishonesty. I've been explaining John 15 to you in many threads over the years. But you just refuse to acknowledge that."

So? You sure are in need of a whole lot of explaining, since you know nothing of what John 15:6 is teaching.


Go ahead and wear out your quote marks. Because of what Jesus said in John 10:28, your "understanding" of John 15 cannot be correct.


And I've given it over and over.


When are you going to answer my question?

Have you stopped beating your wife yet? yes or no


Your question is bogus, as it assumes that a sealed believer can be unsealed, which is just plain blasphemy against the Bible.

So again, have you stopped beating your wife yet? yes or no

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6


Based on these words of the Lord Jesus -


Do you believe a person who is in Christ, then is removed from Christ, still has eternal life?


JLB

 

[LightLoveHope]

No, a put-down is an insult, like saying:
You are ugly, you are stupid, you are worthless, etc. I suggest consulting a dictionary for proper definitions of words.

Again you are doing a put down, suggesting I need a dictionary to even understand my use of put downs. lol.

Here is a definition of a put down from a dictionary in this context
"to criticize someone, especially when other people are present, in a way that makes them feel stupid
He’s always trying to put me down."

Now this is exactly what you are attempting to do.
Saying the bible does not say what I am taking it to mean, when hundreds of years of theology and doctrine proclaim the very understanding I am presenting.

I wonder why you find it hard to admit the interpretation of scripture is the same as Wesley, the great preacher. I fully support the holiness movement, and the desire to see righteous walking empowered by the Holy Spirit.

You seem to represent something very old, sinful walking because of grace.