2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[FreeGrace2]

Do we have the Spirit?

This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands.
1 John 5:2-3

This verse doesn't answer your question.

However, Gal 3:2 and 5 do answer that question.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

Love. We are children of our Father when we put the interests of His people at the top of our agenda.

I asked you for a definition of what you think 'love' means. You haven't given it yet.

 

[LightLoveHope]

A new creation

People claim by putting faith in Jesus they have become a new creation, while continuing the old life and nothing changing.

So it is a nice idea, but if it is not true, and they are people who have said the some faith words yet nothing else has taken place, then clearly they are not a new creation.

Part of methodism was the belief that until people realised their sinfulness and failure, new birth could not take place. I agree with this.
Unless new birth has become real, then one is still the old self, living the worldly way for the worldly reasons.

It is why religious language can actually fail to deliver anything in Christ. It is also why the apostles said gentiles where in the Kingdom because clearly the Holy Spirit fell upon them.

So people claim faith, yet have a dead heart, unresolved sin, and a lack of spiritual praise. I would suggest that they have not found God in the truly spiritual or emotional sense at all. It does not mean in the future they cannot, but certainly they have religion, and the form, but not its reality.

If this is not true, then the phrase a new creation is meaningless, another religious label to bring a feeling of security.

 

[Gr8Grace]

And where was your church for the first 1500 years of Christianity? Any evidence of it at all?

1 Thess 1:1~~New International Version
Paul, Silas and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace and peace to you.

New International Version
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God in Corinth, together with all his holy people throughout Achaia:

Philemon 1:2~~New International Version
also to Apphia our sister and Archippus our fellow soldier--and to the church that meets in your home:

Col 4:16~~New International Version
After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea.

So back to your "majority" comment. The majority are deceived. Few find the way. The world will promote these deception's. And whatever we see as 'mainstream' in this world we had better discern to the best of our ability.

So yeah, there isn't much evidence of the small local assembly that sticks to what the bible actually says.......the world hides truth, it doesn't promote it.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Do we have the Spirit?

This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands.
1 John 5:2-3

This verse doesn't answer your question.

To my brothers and sisters in Christ.
To believe we are children of God by not obeying the commands, or loving God and His people, staggers me. One has to not be reading the words that are being written. Without the Spirit we are not in Christ. So as obedient children following the Lord we know His Spirit is alive in us.

For me it demonstrates the real nature of where people are in Jesus.
I know the door is closed to those who have never opened up, and it is not a question of winning an argument, but it helps us understand what we face and how to talk with such individuals. Because our hearts define our views, it is unchangeable unless repentance, faith, trust and humbleness are in place. God bless you all.

 

[BNR32FAN]

1 Thess 1:1~~New International Version
Paul, Silas and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace and peace to you.

New International Version
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God in Corinth, together with all his holy people throughout Achaia:

Philemon 1:2~~New International Version
also to Apphia our sister and Archippus our fellow soldier--and to the church that meets in your home:

Col 4:16~~New International Version
After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea.

So back to your "majority" comment. The majority are deceived. Few find the way. The world will promote these deception's. And whatever we see as 'mainstream' in this world we had better discern to the best of our ability.

So yeah, there isn't much evidence of the small local assembly that sticks to what the bible actually says.......the world hides truth, it doesn't promote it.

So then the Holy Spirit was silenced by evil? Evil prevailed over God’s church for 1500 years? Is that what your saying? He bore no fruit and allowed everyone for 15 centuries to be misled without any means of learning the truth? There were no bibles given to the public during that time.

 

[BNR32FAN]

1 Thess 1:1~~New International Version
Paul, Silas and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace and peace to you.

New International Version
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God in Corinth, together with all his holy people throughout Achaia:

Philemon 1:2~~New International Version
also to Apphia our sister and Archippus our fellow soldier--and to the church that meets in your home:

Col 4:16~~New International Version
After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea.

So back to your "majority" comment. The majority are deceived. Few find the way. The world will promote these deception's. And whatever we see as 'mainstream' in this world we had better discern to the best of our ability.

So yeah, there isn't much evidence of the small local assembly that sticks to what the bible actually says.......the world hides truth, it doesn't promote it.

The early churches established by the apostles themselves got it all wrong less than 50 years after the apostles died and it took another 1500 years before the truth was finally told. That’s ridiculous and nothing more than your inability to determine what is truth. You will twist everything to make it fit your beliefs.

 

[Gr8Grace]

People claim by putting faith in Jesus they have become a new creation

The bible claims it, and people who believe the bible claim it.

Eph1:13~~New International Version
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

2 Cor 5:17~~New American Standard Bible
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

while continuing the old life and nothing changing.

What you fail to understand is that there WILL be a change. If a believer continues to live from their sin nature(Whether it be sin or HUMAN GOOD) They will now face Gods discipline as a son.

Heb 12~~5And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,

and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,

6because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,

and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.” a

7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father?

 

[Gr8Grace]

So then the Holy Spirit was silenced by evil? Evil prevailed over God’s church for 1500 years? Is that what your saying? He bore no fruit and allowed everyone for 15 centuries to be misled without any means of learning the truth? There were no bibles given to the public during that time.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said. Geesh.
There have always been small pockets of doctrinal believers, that didn't quench the Spirit like the smorshadox church did. And God will ALWAYS lead a believer to a place that has truth if that believer WANTS it.

From my experience, most believers don't want the truth and stick with their comfort zone, people relationship's and mainstream indoctrinations.

 

[Gr8Grace]

The early churches established by the apostles themselves got it all wrong less than 50 years after the apostles died and it took another 1500 years before the truth was finally told. That’s ridiculous and nothing more than your inability to determine what is truth. You will twist everything to make it fit your beliefs.

Seems you will twist everything I say so you can comfortably sit in your indoctrinations.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Seems you will twist everything I say so you can comfortably sit in your indoctrinations

We all build models of faith, because often one verse does not fill the whole picture. As we learn more the picture changes.

Complexity comes when we change, we see things differently. Care should be taken because the pharisees killed Jesus, without wondering was He the Son of God.

For simplicity it is our behaviour and doctrines and ideas that encourage the words of Jesus and shinning as a light in a dark world that follow the narrow path.

Paul gave examples of false teachers who claimed the resurrection had already happened. Others corrupted people with tales of angels and worldly indulgence, which is as true today as ever.

So unfortunately people who claim indoctrination is a part of this, are just desperate to explain why believers are not flocking to their false teaching, while clearly the people of God recognise false teaching.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Who is right?

People are often only right or wrong after a chain of decisions has been made which clearly show the spirit they are following.

The Lord waits for the fruit to appear. This makes the judgement just and true. So beware thinking are quick or set, until it becomes obvious.

For me is a doctrine of eternal security which I hold to, could be taken to mean sinners who deny Christ are saved, living in sin, unbelieving and in rebellion, is in error. In this world satan who knew God face to face has hope, because once he was on the right side of the Father, and the Father can make him perfect again. The Lord has declared satan is doomed. There is no magic ticket for transformation and change.

 

[FreeGrace2]

A new creation

People claim by putting faith in Jesus they have become a new creation, while continuing the old life and nothing changing.

To be accurate, the Bible says that faith in Christ results in being a new creation.

And following that, the new creation is commanded to put off the old man and put on the new. If nothing changes, then God will step in with discipline.

It is why religious language can actually fail to deliver anything in Christ.

The real problem is we are dealing with biblical language, which you apparently have refused to believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Do we have the Spirit?

There is only one way to have the Spirit.

Gal 3:2,5 tells us plainly.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Who is right?

Only those who accept what the Bible says.

For me is a doctrine of eternal security which I hold to, could be taken to mean sinners who deny Christ are saved, living in sin, unbelieving and in rebellion, is in error.

Jesus gave no conditions between giving eternal life to whoever believes, and them never perishing. So please quit trying to add to Scripture what isn't there.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yeah, that's exactly what I said. Geesh.
There have always been small pockets of doctrinal believers, that didn't quench the Spirit like the smorshadox church did. And God will ALWAYS lead a believer to a place that has truth if that believer WANTS it.

From my experience, most believers don't want the truth and stick with their comfort zone, people relationship's and mainstream indoctrinations.

Then why is it that I once believed in OSAS and thru further study of the scriptures I have grown into a more mature comprehension of His word? I passionately refuted conditional salvation for 3 years and thru much prayer and study the Holy Spirit has led me to where I am today in my beliefs and I feel compelled to share what has been revealed to me to others thru the scriptures. It’s not my job to make others believe as I do it’s just my job to plant the seeds and allow the Holy Spirit to water them and make them grow. In most cases this argument is really pointless. Most people who believe in OSAS still repent and produce fruit and endure to the end. My warnings are intended for those who believe they can still live the same life they did before being saved. That they don’t have to become a new creation. They can still get drunk and go to strip clubs Friday and Saturday night and go to church on Sunday and be saved. My message is for these types of people. I believe you and FG2 are most likely more devoted servant than that and not in danger of condemnation. I only fear that your message will mislead those who have a corrupted understanding of God’s word. I was misled myself for most of my life being taught that you only need to believe in Jesus and basically be a good person. Don’t hurt others. But I was also taught it’s ok to sin all I wanted as long as I wasn’t hurting anyone God would forgive my sins. I lived a very sinful life until God reached out to me and pulled me to Him. What I wonderful feeling to know that God reached out to me and insignificant wretched sinner. To know that I really meant something to God and that He values me is a very overwhelming experience. Praise His Holy Name!!

 

[BNR32FAN]

Seems you will twist everything I say so you can comfortably sit in your indoctrinations.

How am I twisting what you said? There are no early church father’s writings that support OSAS. If you are correct then the church either remained silent and hidden for 1500 years or was silenced by evil churches. Am I wrong and if so how?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then why is it that I once believed in OSAS and thru further study of the scriptures I have grown into a more mature comprehension of His word?

This is just hilarious!!

So then, Jesus just hadn't matured as much when He made His statement about the CAUSE and EFFECT of HAVING (that means POSSESSING) eternal life, huh.

Don't dislocate your shoulder by trying to pat yourself on the back. There's nothing mature about thinking that salvation can be lost. It's called REJECTING THE BIBLE.

I passionately refuted conditional salvation for 3 years and thru much prayer and study the Holy Spirit has led me to where I am today in my beliefs and I feel compelled to share what has been revealed to me to others thru the scriptures.

Uh, that wasn't the Holy Spirit speaking.

But since you think so, please explain what the Holy Spirit showed you about John 10:28 then.

It’s not my job to make others believe as I do it’s just my job to plant the seeds and allow the Holy Spirit to water them and make them grow.

That's not either planting or watering seeds. What you spout is like the crows eating the seeds, "less they believe and understand eternal security".

 

[FreeGrace2]

How am I twisting what you said? There are no early church father’s writings that support OSAS.

We've been through this all before. Don't you remember anything I post? Or, maybe you just don't read what I post.

And WHO CARES what the early church fathers wrote? Don't you care what Jesus said? Or Paul? Or Peter? All 3 taught eternal security.

If you are correct then the church either remained silent and hidden for 1500 years or was silenced by evil churches. Am I wrong and if so how?

You are wrong because you clearly don't believe what Jesus said in many passages, the clearest one being John 10:28.

Here are the FACTS:
1. whoever believes POSSESSES (now, currently) eternal life. John 5:24, 6;47, 1 Jn 5;11, 13 say exactly that.

2. Eternal life is given by Jesus. John 10:28a

3. Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28b

By spouting the idea that salvation can be lost, you are only rejecting what Jesus said.

I wouldn't read any of the early church fathers. But I do read my Bible every day.

btw, I read from Acts through Revelation every month. Have done so for over a decade.

There are no verses that plainly state anything about losing salvation.

 

[LightLoveHope]

To know that I really meant something to God and that He values me is a very overwhelming experience. Praise His Holy Name!!

Amen. I would suggest until it becomes personal, Jesus has come to your door and come to eat with you, it is just a group effect and event.

We live today such sheltered lives were people reach their 40's with no real emotional trauma, just boring mundane events, while living a life repressed and controlled, not touching reality with a load of religious theory and excuses clogging their minds. Some wake up when things go very wrong, divorce, affairs, the loss of a loved one, and suddenly things are a lot more scary than the fiction the were living.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Uh, that wasn't the Holy Spirit speaking.

But since you think so, please explain what the Holy Spirit showed you about John 10:28 then.

This is a serious problem. People interpret many things, but to talk against the Holy Spirit is dangerous territory.

I have met people who have spoken like this and ship wrecked their faith because they are speaking about spiritual Kingdoms and Gods moving within them. If what is shared aligns with Gods will and uplifts Jesus and His victory, amen, the Lord is moving. The Lord uses the strangest of situations and people, even when they are literally not following His will, because God is sovereign.