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Alithis

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You are twisting scripture out of context. Look im allowed, even commanded to beware of false teachers. I do not need to be a teacher to beware of one.
yeah umm ----I asked: are you doing the things you say "they" should be doing ?
If not then we dont have the right to say they should be doing them.
 
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swordsman1

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These verses do not make definitive statements, as proven by apostles added later.

So you are saying the scripture writers got it wrong?

Even today, all ministers are frauds, unless appointed by Christ and moving in His anointing,

The apostles were personally appointed by the Lord and no one else. Today's ministers (who are not apostles anyway) are appointed by their church. No minister has walked up to a church and said I am appointed by Christ to lead this church, and you have no say in the matter.

That's amusing. Given your antipathy towards the gifts and ministries, neither Paul nor anyone else would be giving the signs of an apostle anywhere near you.

Of course not, the last one died nearly 2000 years ago.

Wrong again.
Barnabas
Apollos
Sylvanus
Epaphroditus

Barnabas was appointed by the Holy Spirit (Acts 13:2). The others are not even apostles.

So equally there's no hint that further apostles were not to be expected.

Ah the old "argument from silence" fallacy.

What makes you think I'd be interested in your selected propaganda?

Oh. So Wayne Grudem, the most respected charismatic theologian, seminary professor, and fellow continuist of yours, being charged with propaganda by an unorthodox amateur. If what he says is rubbish you should have no trouble refuting his work. Go right ahead. But I won't hold be holding my breath.

You obviously don't understand the role of the fivefold ministry, so to help you, here's Paul's description.
Eph4v11And He gave some indeed to be apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers, 12toward the perfecting of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ, 13until we all may attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a complete man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
As can be seen, all the ministries are necessary, and if you claim one has ended, then that claim must apply to all.

Apostles are still ministering today. But not new ones, the original ones. Every time we turn to one of their epistles they are ministering to us.
 
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W2L

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yeah umm ----I asked: are you doing the things you say "they" should be doing ?
If not then we dont have the right to say they should be doing them.
When i get enough money to build a mansion i'll not use it to build one. Such a use of money shows an utter lack of discernment. Does that answer your question?
 
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Alithis

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When i get enough money to build a mansion i'll not use it to build one. Such a use of money shows an utter lack of discernment. Does that answer your question?
you know it does not .. you know my point is made . no one can demand another DO what that one know he should also be doing . and is not doing
 
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W2L

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you know it does not .. you know my point is made . no one can demand another DO what that one know he should also be doing . and is not doing
I cant do what they can do, thats my point. Your question is avoiding the issue about false teachers and their wealth. Jesus said not to store wealth on earth. (Matthew chapter 6) He said to beware of false teachers. False teachers bear the bad fruit of thorns. (Mathew chapter 7) Thorns represent the deceitfulness of wealth (Matthew 13, parable of the sower) You do the math.
 
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Alithis

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I cant do what they can do, thats my point. Your question is avoiding the issue about false teachers and their wealth. Jesus said not to store wealth on earth. (Matthew chapter 6) He said to beware of false teachers. False teachers bear the bad fruit of thorns. (Mathew chapter 7) Thorns represent the deceitfulness of wealth (Matthew 13, parable of the sower) You do the math.
a man should use what he has for the will of God
whether much or whether little .
you absolutely can do what you expect them to do . they wil be held accountable for what they do or not do with what they have .
we will be held accountable for what we do or do not do with what we have .im learning we do better to be more concerned with obeying what the lord has already told us to ourselves .because we cannot live anothers life .
you want to avoid false doctrine ... then stop meeting one day a week singing some songs paying some money listening to one person speak (to which none can openly challenge ) and then go home thinking you have done GODS will -when in fact its just funding the very false doctrines your speaking against
...
 
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W2L

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a man should use what he has for the will of God
whether much or whether little .
you absolutely can do what you expect them to do . they wil be held accountable for what they do or not do with what they have .
we will be held accountable for what we do or do not do with what we have .im learning we do better to be more concerned with obeying what the lord has already told us to ourselves .because we cannot live anothers life .
you want to avoid false doctrine ... then stop meeting one day a week singing some songs paying some money listening to one person speak (to which none can openly challenge ) and then go home thinking you have done GODS will -when in fact its just funding the very false doctrines your speaking against
...
lol, my you sure make a lot of assumptions.
 
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Alithis

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lol, my you sure make a lot of assumptions.
well if you answered directly instead of ambiguously that would be avoided .. however iv not made any assumption . just asked the question and made a point . so which assumption do you think iv made since it is true we are all called to use what we have for Gods will .
 
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Francis Drake

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The apostle Paul was a great charismatic? Agreed? Paul went without food and sleep at times. Why? Why did he live like that when modern day charismatic teachers live in mansions?

Smearing by association. A totally stupid empty argument.

Most charismatic leaders and teachers I have come across in the last 50 odd years live no different to the rest of us, whilst at the same time there are plenty of Calvinists and Cessationists in living in mansions.

Of what relevance is this?
 
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Francis Drake

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Only because some have not experienced something, it doens't mean it is false, not only they deny the gifts and tongues etc. that is the least bad part, but that God can interact with christians! So God can't even speak or command christians to do something, he can't give wisdom or reveal a problem either. That is taking things too far!
I think is just plain unbelief because the bible supports all these things. He spoke in the entire OT and NT, and he didn't just stop now.
I totally agree, but here's some extrapolation of those thoughts.

Christians in general are happy to accept that Satan deceives the unbelievers.
And in general they also believe that Satan and his demons do so by whispering in their minds. ie. Doctrines of demons etc.

Jesus made it abundantly clear that these "sons of the devil" did the bidding of their evil father, because it was natural for them to do so.-
John8v44."You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
To be a "liar" means you have to be actively speaking false words to someone. Thus scripture assumes that the unregenerate are actively hearing those lies. ie. foolish men just like Adam, just like any murderer.

Jesus didn't mince words, the unregenerate were all the devil's children.
Matt13v8...and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;

These sons of the devil, either knowingly or unknowingly, cannot help but hear the voice of their father the devil, assuming his thoughts were their own thoughts. Then as witting or unwitting servants, they carry out those ungodly thoughts into ungodly actions.

Thus, we see clearly from scripture, and also from real life, that unregenerate people listen to evil voices, leading to evil thoughts and evil actions.

So whilst Satan can instruct his own children, Cessationists outrageously deny God that same ability!
And according to Cessationists, Christians who do hear God's voice are either liars, or false prophets.

Cessationism grants more power to Satan than God.
 
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Francis Drake

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Not only that. We know Cornelius's tongues was the same as Pentecost because Peter says so.
Acts 10:47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”
The Gentiles had received the Spirit and spoke in tongues "just as we did". If they had received a different kind of tongues then Peter was lying - they didn't receive the Spirit just as they did.
Again you try to mislead people.
Peter does not say they received the same tongues, he very specifically says they received the same Holy Spirit!
And as Paul says later, there are different kinds of tongues, of men and angels.
 
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Francis Drake

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I've already provided an exposition of scripture that demonstrates tongues and prophecy would cease when the canon is completed. See my previous post. No one has yet refuted it.
Your false claims have been refuted many times, both by scripture and by history.
 
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Deborah D

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I cant do what they can do, thats my point. Your question is avoiding the issue about false teachers and their wealth. Jesus said not to store wealth on earth. (Matthew chapter 6) He said to beware of false teachers. False teachers bear the bad fruit of thorns. (Mathew chapter 7) Thorns represent the deceitfulness of wealth (Matthew 13, parable of the sower) You do the math.

You seem to think that abundance of earthly goods is always bad and that Paul was always poor. That's not what he said in Phil 4.

Phil 4:10-20-- I rejoiced in the Lord greatly that once again you renewed your care for me. You were, in fact, concerned about me but lacked the opportunity to show it. I don’t say this out of need, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am. I know both how to have a little, and I know how to have a lot. In any and all circumstances I have learned the secret of being content — whether well fed or hungry, whether in abundance or in need. I am able to do all things through Him who strengthens me. Still, you did well by sharing with me in my hardship.​

And you Philippians know that in the early days of the gospel, when I left Macedonia, no church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving except you alone. For even in Thessalonica you sent gifts for my need several times. Not that I seek the gift, but I seek the profit that is increasing to your account. But I have received everything in full, and I have an abundance. I am fully supplied, having received from Epaphroditus what you provided — a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God. And my God will supply all your needs according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus. Now to our God and Father be glory forever and ever. Amen.
You also seem to think that all false teachers have a lot of wealth. I'm sure there are plenty of false teachers who are poor. I believe the parable of the sower is talking about salvation, not false teachers. The person who sows among the thorns never really accepts the truth because his heart is torn between the Savior and the world. This applies to the wealthy and the poor who desire the things of this world more than they desire Jesus.

Matt 13:22-- "Now the one sown among the thorns — this is one who hears the word, but the worries of this age and the seduction of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful."
You seem to be stuck on the false notion that all false teachers are wealthy, and all wealth is bad. God can bless us with abundance like He did Paul at times, but Paul wasn't a false teacher. The question is not whether God blesses us with wealth. It's a matter of what we seek in this life and what we do with what God gives us--whether a little or a lot.

 
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W2L

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You seem to think that abundance of earthly goods is always bad and that Paul was always poor. That's not what he said in Phil 4.

Phil 4:10-20-- I rejoiced in the Lord greatly that once again you renewed your care for me. You were, in fact, concerned about me but lacked the opportunity to show it. I don’t say this out of need, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am. I know both how to have a little, and I know how to have a lot. In any and all circumstances I have learned the secret of being content — whether well fed or hungry, whether in abundance or in need. I am able to do all things through Him who strengthens me. Still, you did well by sharing with me in my hardship.​

And you Philippians know that in the early days of the gospel, when I left Macedonia, no church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving except you alone. For even in Thessalonica you sent gifts for my need several times. Not that I seek the gift, but I seek the profit that is increasing to your account. But I have received everything in full, and I have an abundance. I am fully supplied, having received from Epaphroditus what you provided — a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God. And my God will supply all your needs according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus. Now to our God and Father be glory forever and ever. Amen.
You also seem to think that all false teachers have a lot of wealth. I'm sure there are plenty of false teachers who are poor. I believe the parable of the sower is talking about salvation, not false teachers. The person who sows among the thorns never really accepts the truth because his heart is torn between the Savior and the world. This applies to the wealthy and the poor who desire the things of this world more than they desire Jesus.
Matt 13:22-- "Now the one sown among the thorns — this is one who hears the word, but the worries of this age and the seduction of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful."
You seem to be stuck on the false notion that all false teachers are wealthy, and all wealth is bad. God can bless us with abundance like He did Paul at times, but Paul wasn't a false teacher. The question is not whether God blesses us with wealth. It's a matter of what we seek in this life and what we do with what God gives us--whether a little or a lot.

No you missed my point. Paul didnt name and claim his way into abundance, no he was content in any situation.
 
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W2L

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Smearing by association. A totally stupid empty argument.

Most charismatic leaders and teachers I have come across in the last 50 odd years live no different to the rest of us, whilst at the same time there are plenty of Calvinists and Cessationists in living in mansions.

Of what relevance is this?
You just proved my point. Name it and claim it theology doesnt work.
 
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YeshuaFan

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Wrong, he can speak to christians directly, a good position on this matters is that if you have not experienced something do not discard it and say is not true. Specially when so many christians are telling you that this things happen.
My point is that when you read the scriptures, we know that it is 100 % certainty that God is speaking to us thru them, but no way to have same confidence that He is by any other method!
 
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YeshuaFan

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No you missed my point. Paul didnt name and claim his way into abundance, no he was content in any situation.
Indeed, for the main point paul is making to us is that regardless of the financial and physicl state that we find ourselves in, God is with us and we can be content in him!
 
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swordsman1

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the thread is titled the question the cessationists must answer
but the wrong question is asked . the question i will ask is -when will they repent of unbelief

Repent of our unbelief?!!

Unbelief in the claims that people are speaking in tongues when it doesn't match the biblical description?

Unbelief in the claims that thoughts popping into people's heads is prophecy?

Unbelief in the claims that apostles exist today, when nobody can meet the biblical qualifications?

Unbelief in the claims that the leg lengthening parlor trick is really a faith healer growing a limb?

Unbelief in the claims that someone is miraculously healed when it takes 3 months to get better?

Unbelief in the claim that being 'slain in the Spirit' is really a work of the Holy Spirit?

Unbelief that of claims of someone's back pain easing during an adrenaline flowing faith healing spectacle is really a healing when it returns the next day?

Unbelief in the fanciful unsubstantiated 2nd hand stories from internet strangers that are offered as proof of miracles?

Unbelief in the health and wealth gospel?


I'm afraid will not be repenting of my unbelief in the above any time soon.
 
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