The question cessationists must answer.

[Hillsage]

I just prefer the BIBLE! Maybe you can just chill now.

You can only wish. For such has not been my experience with SM.

 

[Hillsage]

The apostle Paul was a great charismatic? Agreed? Paul went without food and sleep at times. Why? Why did he live like that when modern day charismatic teachers live in mansions?

You mean like ‘almost ALL American Christians live’ (including you) compared most of the world today? Have you seen any American Christian you know, living ‘below his means’ to sacrificially send his money to the suffering world...let alone Christians? I don’t know that I have. IOW should you really judge the degree of a black kettle when you’re just as black of a pot, by the world’s standard?

EDIT. I’ve been without cell coverage since page 17 so just skipped to the last page to jump in. Now I see it really was the last page. And, since posting, and continuing to read I also see that Deborah says the same thing. I’m going to assume we share a common ‘Spirit’. You will probably assume I should have said ‘spirit’. Oh well it’s best to move on for me too. Still lots life to catch up on.

I actually just saw a video which was sent to me, of a brother who studdered so bad that I had difficulty even understanding him. He was healed last night and I heard him praying and there was no studder. The only time I ever heard him not studder before, was when his spirit was praying in tongues. And he received his prayer language 10 plus years ago.

 

[RDKirk]

The miraculous gifts such as tongues and healing were sign gifts to authenticate Christians in the fledgling church as God's people. eg to prove the gentiles were Christians, to prove the apostles were apostles.(There are numerous scriptures that confirm this, let me know if you want the quotes.) Without those gifts Christianity would never have got off the ground. Once that authentication was complete, those gifts were no longer necessary.

The revelatory gifts such as apostleship, prophecy and words of knowledge were no longer necessary as the completed scriptures would now guide people in the faith. Apostles and prophets were spokesmen for God (Luke 10:16, 2 Peter 1:21). Scripture now takes that role (2 Tim 3:16). Apostles and prophets were only for the foundation of the church (Eph 2:20).

You can quote scripture to indicate such things proven in such ways, but you can't quote any scripture that says, "these will go away when the Church has compiled and closed a New Testament canon," nor can you find a scripture that says scripture invalidates the need for spiritual gifts even as proof of Christianity.

More importantly, you sure can't find the two or three scriptural witnesses it takes to state any such particular thing as a scriptural fact.

 

[RDKirk]

Well "the perfect" or "completion" must either mean the return of Christ or the completion of the canon. The evidence from the context, seeing that Christ or his returned is never mentioned in the passage, is it is more likely to be the latter.

"Completion of the canon" is never mentioned either.

Ever.

Nowhere.

Nowhere ever in scripture and not even by the early church fathers until the Marcionite Heresy in 140
AD, and then it's not mentioned again for another 150 years.

But the return of Christ is mentioned repeatedly by everyone.

So if "the perfect" means either one or the other, it certainly means the thing that everyone was talking about--the return of Christ--and not the thing that nobody talked about ever.

 

[Deborah D]

"Completion of the canon" is never mentioned either.

Ever.

Nowhere.

Nowhere ever in scripture and not even by the early church fathers until the Marcionite Heresy in 140
AD, and then it's not mentioned again for another 150 years.

But the return of Christ is mentioned repeatedly by everyone.

So if "the perfect" means either one or the other, it certainly means the thing that everyone was talking about--the return of Christ--and not the thing that nobody talked about ever.

That's interesting about the "Marcionite heresy." I'll have to look that up.

 

[Francis Drake]

Acts 2:6 "And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language."

The languages they spoke at Pentecost is an irrelevant red herring, given that in the meeting with Cornelius, there is no reference to any known language.

Acts10v44Of Peter still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those hearing the word. 45And the believers from the circumcision, as many as had come with Peter, were amazed that the gift of the Holy Spirit has been poured out even upon the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and magnifying God.

Its only Cessationists who in a vacuum of knowledge or experience, obsess over the exact language the tongue must be. And as Cornelius shows, the language of praise and prayer matters not one jot.

We can reasonable presume that there were maybe three predominant languages that day in Cornelius's house, Roman/Latin, and Hebrew or Greek.

And in contrast to Pentecost, there is no recognition of the tongues spoken, so its reasonable safe to presume they were unknown to the hearers, just like mostly happens today.

It also makes no reference to interpretation of tongues, again just like today. They just praised and magnified the Lord in tongues, no doubt joined by Peter and his friends, also in tongues.

 

[Alithis]

So you are saying that because im not an apostle i cant judge whether or not someone else is an apostle?

I asked: are you doing the things you say "they" should be doing ?
If not then we dont have the right to say they should be doing them.

if i was saying as per quote.. id have said that .
but i didnt-
I asked: are you doing the things you say "they" should be doing ?
If not then we dont have the right to say they should be doing them.

 

[Hillsage]

The languages they spoke at Pentecost is an irrelevant red herring, given that in the meeting with Cornelius, there is no reference to any known language.

Acts10v44Of Peter still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those hearing the word. 45And the believers from the circumcision, as many as had come with Peter, were amazed that the gift of the Holy Spirit has been poured out even upon the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and magnifying God.

Its only Cessationists who in a vacuum of knowledge or experience, obsess over the exact language the tongue must be. And as Cornelius shows, the language of praise and prayer matters not one jot.

We can reasonable presume that there were maybe three predominant languages that day in Cornelius's house, Roman/Latin, and Hebrew or Greek.

And in contrast to Pentecost, there is no recognition of the tongues spoken, so its reasonable safe to presume they were unknown to the hearers, just like mostly happens today.

It also makes no reference to interpretation of tongues, again just like today. They just praised and magnified the Lord in tongues, no doubt joined by Peter and his friends, also in tongues.

I’ve shown SM at least a couple of times, with no rebuttal, that the apostles didn’t ‘first’ speak in the tongues of men. And neither were they celebrating Pentecost at somebodies house. They were celebrating at the house of the Lord. Just like the foreigner Jews who heard ‘unknown tongues’ first, which according to scripture “no man understandeth”.

And Acts 2:6 also uses an interesting word to describe this unknown “gibberish and babble”. Terms used by those which scripture, calls “ungifted” or “unlearned “.
And that word in Acts 2:6 is;

5456 phone fo-nay' probably akin to 5316 through the idea of disclosure; a tone (articulate, bestial or artificial); by implication, an address (for any purpose), saying or language:--noise, sound, voice.

 

[Francis Drake]

The New Apostolic Reformation is a dangerous heretical group founded by C Peter Wagner that believes the gift of apostle has been restored and they have the same authority in the church today as the 1st century apostles.

Since when were we discussing Peter Wagner?
I have no interest in what he says or thinks.

Apostles cannot exist today. Scripture lays down the qualification for being an apostle:

Here we go again, yet more tradition masquerading as scripture!

1. They had to have been eye-witnesses of Christ's resurrection (Acts 1:21-22, 1 Cor 9:1). And Paul said he was the last person to see the resurrected Christ (1 Cor 15:8).
​

These verses do not make definitive statements, as proven by apostles added later.

2. As apostles of Christ they had to have been specifically appointed by Christ.

Even today, all ministers are frauds, unless appointed by Christ and moving in His anointing,

3. They had the 'marks of an apostle' - being able to perform miracles (2 Cor 12:12).

That's amusing. Given your antipathy towards the gifts and ministries, neither Paul nor anyone else would be giving the signs of an apostle anywhere near you.
If you want miracles, you need to take a leaf out of this man's book.-
Acts14v9This man was listening to the words of Paul, who looked intently at him and saw that he had faith to be healed.
Instead of faith, you go out of your way to profess unbelief in any such thing.
​

Apostles were the foundation of the church (Eph 2:20). Is the foundation still being laid today?

Without the fullness of all the Holy Spirit ministries, most building is mere wood hay and stubble. ie. Man's institutions with man at the head, rather than Christ.

After Paul the apostles never designated successors.

Wrong again.
Barnabas
Apollos
Sylvanus
Epaphroditus

When the apostle James was killed in Act 12:1-2, why wasn't he replaced like Judas was? There is no hint in scripture that any further apostles were to be expected.

Absence of evidence, is never evidence of absence. So equally there's no hint that further apostles were not to be expected. But as the other ministries have been in demand ever since that time, the evidence is stacked in favour of all five ministries being continued.

I have uploaded an excerpt about apostles by Wayne Grudem, the most respected charismatic theologian today. It will help you to understand why this particular gift no longer exists.

You jest. What makes you think I'd be interested in your selected propaganda?

So you agree with me. Apostles, of the type that existed in the 1st century, have ceased. (not that there is any other type).

You obviously don't understand the role of the fivefold ministry, so to help you, here's Paul's description.
Eph4v11And He gave some indeed to be apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers, 12toward the perfecting of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ, 13until we all may attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a complete man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
As can be seen, all the ministries are necessary, and if you claim one has ended, then that claim must apply to all.

 

[NBB]

Only because some have not experienced something, it doens't mean it is false, not only they deny the gifts and tongues etc. that is the least bad part, but that God can interact with christians! So God can't even speak or command christians to do something, he can't give wisdom or reveal a problem either. That is taking things too far!
I think is just plain unbelief because the bible supports all these things. He spoke in the entire OT and NT, and he didn't just stop now.

 

[Billy Evmur]

No i wouldnt. What does scripture say about false apostles?

False teachers preach we must give, give, give but never expect any return.

The bible is "give and it shall be given unto you again, good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over shall men give into your bosom"

 

[Deborah D]

Only because some have not experienced something, it doens't mean it is false, not only they deny the gifts and tongues etc. that is the least bad part, but that God can interact with christians! So God can't even speak or command christians to do something, he can't give wisdom or reveal a problem either. That is taking things too far!
I think is just plain unbelief because the bible supports all these things. He spoke in the entire OT and NT, and he didn't just stop now.

That's right NBB! How do Christians that don't believe God speaks to us know how God is leading them? I've heard some cessationist Baptists say that they have an "impression" from God but wouldn't say that God spoke to them. To me this is splitting hairs.

 

[NBB]

That's right NBB! How do Christians that don't believe God speaks to us know how God is leading them? I've heard some cessationist Baptists say that they have an "impression" from God but wouldn't say that God spoke to them. To me this is splitting hairs.

Yes. God makes himself understand, i'm not saying i ever heard an audible voice, always was something spiritual in my interior.

 

[W2L]

False teachers preach we must give, give, give but never expect any return.

The bible is "give and it shall be given unto you again, good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over shall men give into your bosom"

Sir, that verse you are quoting is talking about how we judge others. Its not about getting money from God.

 

[W2L]

I asked: are you doing the things you say "they" should be doing ?
If not then we dont have the right to say they should be doing them.

if i was saying as per quote.. id have said that .
but i didnt-
I asked: are you doing the things you say "they" should be doing ?
If not then we dont have the right to say they should be doing them.

You are twisting scripture out of context. Look im allowed, even commanded to beware of false teachers. I do not need to be a teacher to beware of one.

 

[W2L]

You mean like ‘almost ALL American Christians live’ (including you) compared most of the world today? Have you seen any American Christian you know, living ‘below his means’ to sacrificially send his money to the suffering world...let alone Christians? I don’t know that I have. IOW should you really judge the degree of a black kettle when you’re just as black of a pot, by the world’s standard?

EDIT. I’ve been without cell coverage since page 17 so just skipped to the last page to jump in. Now I see it really was the last page. And, since posting, and continuing to read I also see that Deborah says the same thing. I’m going to assume we share a common ‘Spirit’. You will probably assume I should have said ‘spirit’. Oh well it’s best to move on for me too. Still lots life to catch up on.

I actually just saw a video which was sent to me, of a brother who studdered so bad that I had difficulty even understanding him. He was healed last night and I heard him praying and there was no studder. The only time I ever heard him not studder before, was when his spirit was praying in tongues. And he received his prayer language 10 plus years ago.

You are accusing others of judging because you have no case it seems. Thats all you have left to argue with. The scriptures praise those who test apostles to see if they are false but you guys say no thats judging? Sorry friend but i have scripture on my side. Im allowed to judge whether someone is a true or false apostle. And your twisting of scripture cannot change that fact. No wonder you all follow bad teaching, you dont judge your teachers.

 

[W2L]

Actually, Jesus said, "Do not judge...." I completely agree that we need to beware of false teachers! There are plenty of them out there--charismatic and non-charismatic. But you've basically said that "modern day charismatic teachers live in mansions" and don't care about the needy. That's the kind of judging Jesus said not to do.

Edit: W2L, I'm concerned that you seem to have a lot of bitterness in your heart. Take it from me, bitterness can eat you alive! Again, I pray that you wiil have God's grace to forgive!

No its not, by their fruits you will know them. Love is a fruit and they seem short on it.

 

[swordsman1]

You can quote scripture to indicate such things proven in such ways, but you can't quote any scripture that says, "these will go away when the Church has compiled and closed a New Testament canon,"

I've already provided an exposition of scripture that demonstrates tongues and prophecy would cease when the canon is completed. See my previous post. No one has yet refuted it.

nor can you find a scripture that says scripture invalidates the need for spiritual gifts even as proof of Christianity.

I've also provided the scripture that plainly says apostles and prophets were for the foundation of the church. When the foundation is built you don't need to build another one on top.

More importantly, you sure can't find the two or three scriptural witnesses it takes to state any such particular thing as a scriptural fact.

Nor can you provide two or three scriptural witnesses that state they would continue.

 

[swordsman1]

"Completion of the canon" is never mentioned either.

Ever.

Nowhere.

Nowhere ever in scripture and not even by the early church fathers until the Marcionite Heresy in 140
AD, and then it's not mentioned again for another 150 years.

The completion of the canon was declared in scripture when John finished the last book of scripture and said in Rev 22:18 that if anyone added anything further then God would add to that person the plagues described therein. After John died there were no further men qualified to write scripture. The canon was closed.

What Marcion proposed and the later councils undertook was not to complete the canon, but to determine which books were inspired and which were not, and so form a definitive collection of inspired works.

Jude 3 also speaks about the completion and distribution of the canon.

Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints..​

"The faith", being the sum of doctrines which Christians believe, was to be delivered to the saints "once for all". Once it was written it was not to be added to, but delivered to the saints for distribution.

But the return of Christ is mentioned repeatedly by everyone.

And? That doesn't prove the charismatic gifts would last until then.

So if "the perfect" means either one or the other, it certainly means the thing that everyone was talking about--the return of Christ--and not the thing that nobody talked about ever.

The meaning of the "the perfect" or "completion" (depending on your translation) is determined by the exegesis of that particular passage. The fact that the return of Christ is mentioned elsewhere in scripture adds no weight to it being the meaning of "completion" here.

 

[swordsman1]

The languages they spoke at Pentecost is an irrelevant red herring, given that in the meeting with Cornelius, there is no reference to any known language.

There doesn't have to a reference to foreign languages in Acts 10. Luke has already provided a detailed description of tongues in Acts 2. He doesn't need to provide another every time the phenomenon was subsequently mentioned (unless of course it became something different).

Not only that. We know Cornelius's tongues was the same as Pentecost because Peter says so.

Acts 10:47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”​

The Gentiles had received the Spirit and spoke in tongues "just as we did". If they had received a different kind of tongues then Peter was lying - they didn't receive the Spirit just as they did.