Save everyone?

[ClementofA]

I did. You posted a website. Staring me in the face was the first bullet. So, when a guy leads with a lie, which that undoubtedly is--since JESUS HIMSELF SAID THE OPPOSITE, I don't have to read further.

Please explain in a brief sentence why you think saying "Christian hell is a hoax" is a "lie". I didn't read the rest of your wordy post.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

Why isn't everyone saved if he died for all sin. including the sin of unbelief?

Salvation involves faith in Christ & being born again, becoming a new creation in Him, etc. Not all do that...yet.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

Okaaaay. We have a universalist who cannot reconcile the loss of the many with the salvation of the few.

1. Jesus says "FEW" were finding it (Mt.7:13-14)
2. Paul says "MANY" will be saved (Rom.5:18-19)

Both are right.

Jesus was referring to the situation at His time in the first century, not final destiny.

Bible versions don't say "few will EVER find it". This Greek Interliner says "finding":

Matthew 7:14 Interlinear: how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Young's Literal Translation
how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Matthew 7:14 is in the present tense, few "finding" it, speaking of that particular time, not of final destiny. Earlier in Matthew final destiny was already revealed re salvation:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

"Pay attention to the Greek verb tenses.
“Enter (eiselthate | εἰσέλθατε | aor act imperative 2 pl) through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and easy the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter(eiserchomenoi | εἰσερχόμενοι | pres mid ptcp nom pl masc) through it. Matt 7:13"

"How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and few are those who find (heuriskontes | εὑρίσκοντες | pres act ptcp nom pl masc) it! Matt 7:14"

"In v.13 the word for 'enter' is the Greek word 'eiserchomenoi' which as noted is a present tense participle more accurately translated as 'entering.' Thus all this verse is saying is that there are many who are presently entering the wide gate. This verse does not refer at all to sometime in the future where people may or may not be resurrected out of the lake of fire. If it did, this verse would employ the future tense of the verb - but it doesn't. We can only say what this verse states - simply that when Jesus spoke these words, many are entering the broad gate/road."

"Same thing with v.14. The word for 'find' is 'heuriskontes' which is a present tense participle. Thus few people are currently 'finding' the narrow gate. No reference at all to the future."

Note the word "many", not "few":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All. Those will He "justify" (Isa.53:11).

So he ignores all the passages that mention the damnation of most.

All passages have been addressed & harmonized with universalism. Search the forum. Or search the internet. Or read some of the dozens of books written on the subject.

 

[ClementofA]

I hear what you are saying. Here is the problem. Show me one human who wasn't first born in or through the loins of Adam. All of us are born in the flesh through Adam. BUT...

Jesus said: "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again." (John 3:3)

What does that mean?

Jesus answered: "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." (John 3:5-7)

All in Adam (every human) All in second Adam (all who are born of the Spirit).

Jesus continued: "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:14-18)

So, if your understanding of Paul's writings are correct, why did Jesus suggest say that people would remain condemned and perish, if they didn't believe in Him?

What do you interpret "apollumi" to mean, if not perish (for those who don't believe and therefore aren't born of the Spirit?

So, that which is born of the flesh (in Adam) is flesh (in Adam)--which all humans are. AND,
That which is born of the Spirit (in Christ) is spirit (in Christ)--which all true believers are.

For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eonian (aionion) life. (Jn. 3:16).

In John 3:16 there is no question that those who are believing - shall - not perish. Even though the subjunctive "should" is used. For it is used with the hina (so that) indicating purpose or result.

Likewise, in the very next verse, Jn.3:17, the hina occurs again with subjunctive, just as it does in John 3:16:

For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

There we see God's reason in sending His Son, namely to save the world. That was the Diivine will of God, Who is Love Omnipotent. And notice what BDAG says about the "divine will":

“In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the divine will…” ἵνα — с греческого на все языки

More literal versions of John 3:16 say:

16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)

16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)

16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found. He was ruined, not annihilated.

Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They go to "hell" until they repent & are saved, since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

"While we are on the topic, however, I might mention that, alongside various, often seemingly contradictory images of eschatological punishment, the New Testament also contains a large number of seemingly explicit statements of universal salvation, excluding no one (for instance, John 3:17; 12:32, 47; Romans 5:18-19; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:14, 19; Philippians 2:9-11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6;4:10; Titus 2:11; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Colossians 1:19-20; 1 John 2:2 … to mention only some of the most striking). To me it is surpassingly strange that, down the centuries, most Christians have come to believe that the former class of claims—all of which are metaphorical, pictorial, vague, and elliptical in form—must be regarded as providing the “literal” content of the New Testament’s teaching, while the latter—which are invariably straightforward doctrinal statements—must be regarded as mere hyperbole. It is one of the great mysteries of Christian history (or perhaps of a certain kind of religious psychopathology)."

Anent Garry Wills and the “DBH” Version

 

[Kerensa]

To me it is surpassingly strange that, down the centuries, most Christians have come to believe that the former class of claims—all of which are metaphorical, pictorial, vague, and elliptical in form—must be regarded as providing the “literal” content of the New Testament’s teaching, while the latter—which are invariably straightforward doctrinal statements—must be regarded as mere hyperbole. It is one of the great mysteries of Christian history (or perhaps of a certain kind of religious psychopathology)."

Anent Garry Wills and the “DBH” Version

Interesting, isn't it?

 

[Dave L]

1. Jesus says "FEW" were finding it (Mt.7:13-14)
2. Paul says "MANY" will be saved (Rom.5:18-19)

Both are right.

Jesus was referring to the situation at His time in the first century, not final destiny.

Bible versions don't say "few will EVER find it". This Greek Interliner says "finding":

Matthew 7:14 Interlinear: how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Young's Literal Translation
how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Matthew 7:14 is in the present tense, few "finding" it, speaking of that particular time, not of final destiny. Earlier in Matthew final destiny was already revealed re salvation:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

"Pay attention to the Greek verb tenses.
“Enter (eiselthate | εἰσέλθατε | aor act imperative 2 pl) through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and easy the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter(eiserchomenoi | εἰσερχόμενοι | pres mid ptcp nom pl masc) through it. Matt 7:13"

"How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and few are those who find (heuriskontes | εὑρίσκοντες | pres act ptcp nom pl masc) it! Matt 7:14"

"In v.13 the word for 'enter' is the Greek word 'eiserchomenoi' which as noted is a present tense participle more accurately translated as 'entering.' Thus all this verse is saying is that there are many who are presently entering the wide gate. This verse does not refer at all to sometime in the future where people may or may not be resurrected out of the lake of fire. If it did, this verse would employ the future tense of the verb - but it doesn't. We can only say what this verse states - simply that when Jesus spoke these words, many are entering the broad gate/road."

"Same thing with v.14. The word for 'find' is 'heuriskontes' which is a present tense participle. Thus few people are currently 'finding' the narrow gate. No reference at all to the future."

Note the word "many", not "few":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All. Those will He "justify" (Isa.53:11).




All passages have been addressed & harmonized with universalism. Search the forum. Or search the internet. Or read some of the dozens of books written on the subject.

Read the bible, not the forums or the internet. It will all make sense.

 

[Dave L]

Salvation involves faith in Christ & being born again, becoming a new creation in Him, etc. Not all do that...yet.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

There's no yet about it.
“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 4)

“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.” (2 Peter 2:1)

 

[ClementofA]

If you find out there is such an unending place where people are subject to unending punishment, do you really want to be held accountable for what you have said about Him?

That's like saying to me, "If you find out Jesus isn't the only Way, but a false god..."?

Scripture says you can know the truth & it will set you free. John 8:32.

James 1:5 Now if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask from God, the One giving generously to all and not finding fault, and it will be given to him.

Colossians 3:15 And let the peace of Christ arbitrate(1018 Strongs) in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body. And be thankful.

1018 /brabeúō ("decide as an umpire") means to arbitrate, i.e. "making the call" in "a conflict between contending forces"

1 John 2:27 And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answering, said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona! For flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in the heavens.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Please explain in a brief sentence why you think saying "Christian hell is a hoax" is a "lie". I didn't read the rest of your wordy post.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Is that how you reach your Biblical conclusions as well, read only what you feel like reading and decide the rest is too wordy? I guess that explains it.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

That's like saying to me, "If you find out Jesus isn't the only Way, but a false god..."?

Scripture says you can know the truth & it will set you free. John 8:32.

James 1:5 Now if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask from God, the One giving generously to all and not finding fault, and it will be given to him.

Colossians 3:15 And let the peace of Christ arbitrate(1018 Strongs) in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body. And be thankful.

1018 /brabeúō ("decide as an umpire") means to arbitrate, i.e. "making the call" in "a conflict between contending forces"

1 John 2:27 And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answering, said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona! For flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in the heavens.

Unfortunately for you that "false god" that you refer to may actually be the only True and Living God and Father of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, since what you claim is coming from a false god was spoken by my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[ClementofA]

When I get to be with Him, I'm not going to make sure there was hell. I am quite sure that I won't care, because it has no bearing on my relationship with God.

You wouldn't care if there were billions of human beings burning in a fiery torture chamber for all eternity?

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

 

[ClementofA]

Is that how you reach your Biblical conclusions as well, read only what you feel like reading and decide the rest is too wordy? I guess that explains it.

I've read it now & answered it. What is your answer to this:

Please explain in a brief sentence why you think saying "Christian hell is a hoax" is a "lie".

 

[ClementofA]

Unfortunately for you that "false god" that you refer to may actually be the only True and Living God and Father of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, since what you claim is coming from a false god was spoken by my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

No, by "false god" i was clearly referring to those of other religions that reject Christ as being the only way:

If you find out there is such an unending place where people are subject to unending punishment, do you really want to be held accountable for what you have said about Him?

That's like saying to me, "If you find out Jesus isn't the only Way, but a false god..."?

Scripture says you can know the truth & it will set you free. John 8:32.

James 1:5 Now if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask from God, the One giving generously to all and not finding fault, and it will be given to him.

Colossians 3:15 And let the peace of Christ arbitrate(1018 Strongs) in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body. And be thankful.

1018 /brabeúō ("decide as an umpire") means to arbitrate, i.e. "making the call" in "a conflict between contending forces"

1 John 2:27 And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answering, said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona! For flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in the heavens.

 

[Der Alte]

anfang

<Clem>...
"Pay attention to the Greek verb tenses.
“Enter (eiselthate | εἰσέλθατε | aor act imperative 2 pl) through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and easy the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter(eiserchomenoi | εἰσερχόμενοι | pres mid ptcp nom pl masc) through it. Matt 7:13"
"How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and few are those who find (heuriskontes | εὑρίσκοντες | pres act ptcp nom pl masc) it! Matt 7:14"
"In v.13 the word for 'enter' is the Greek word 'eiserchomenoi' which as noted is a present tense participle more accurately translated as 'entering.' Thus all this verse is saying is that there are many who are presently entering the wide gate. This verse does not refer at all to sometime in the future where people may or may not be resurrected out of the lake of fire. If it did, this verse would employ the future tense of the verb - but it doesn't. We can only say what this verse states - simply that when Jesus spoke these words, many are entering the broad gate/road."
.....
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
<end>

ende

One who cannot parse Greek should not post grammatical arguments. One who copy/pastes full blown canned arguments from UR websites should make sure the people he is quoting know what they are talking about.
.....When I quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia you objected asking absurd things like "What Greek word were they translating?" "What were their qualifications in Greek or Hebrew?" And other such nonsense, while quoting from biased sites like tents-r-us, above, unquestioningly, uncritically accepting anything they say although they have no stated or apparent expertise in Hebrew or Greek.

All passages have been addressed & harmonized with universalism. Search the forum. Or search the internet. Or read some of the dozens of books written on the subject.

See above, nothing is addressed or harmonized when all one does is copy/paste, copy/paste.

 

[Blade]

For those who think God's plan is to save the world, why did Jesus pray only for those God gave Him and those who would believe in Him through their word? (John 17)

For God so loved the WORLD. It was the Jewish people that were least of all. That He choose. They were to take HIS word to the world. The did not. We have John saying "behold the lamb of God that takes away the SIN OF THE WORLD"...

Jesus prayed for those that would be left behind..that were going to take as He told them. take my word to every nation..tell ever creature. So for me.. we are ALL still here.. He has not come.. for a reason.. He is out there saving HIS creation.

 

[ClementofA]

One who cannot parse Greek should not post grammatical arguments. One who copy/pastes full blown canned arguments from UR websites should make sure the people he is quoting know what they are talking about.

The comments were not mine or from a UR website. Do you have nothing to say about them or should i take your silence as agreement with what the poster said.

.....When I quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia you objected asking absurd things like "What Greek word were they translating?" "What were their qualifications in Greek or Hebrew?"

Absurd? Or ones you have no answer to?

And other such nonsense, while quoting from biased sites like tents-r-us, above, unquestioningly, uncritically accepting anything they say although they have no stated or apparent expertise in Hebrew or Greek.

Everyone is biased. As for what you think i accept, can you read the minds of anonymous internet posters. Many UR sites refer to experts in Greek, Hebrew, etc.

See above, nothing is addressed or harmonized when all one does is copy/paste, copy/paste.

Do you refer to yourself ; lol

 

[ClementofA]

I did. You posted a website. Staring me in the face was the first bullet. So, when a guy leads with a lie, which that undoubtedly is--since JESUS HIMSELF SAID THE OPPOSITE, I don't have to read further.

Nothing in your post opposed the view that the "Christian hell is a hoax" with "hell" defined as "eternal punishment". How can you say it is a lie. IMO it is the teaching of endless tortures that is the lie. The author of the article concluded:

"So weve gone through all the hell verses and have found nothing in relation to the Christian Hell"the place or state of eternal punishment of the wicked after death, with Satan as its ruler". If you havent already, maybe its time you reconsider your belief in regards to this hideous doctrine the Church is shoving down the throats of millions of helpless sheep throughout the world?"

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[FineLinen]

“Do not add to his words, lest he reprove you, and prove you to be a liar.” (Proverbs 30:6)

Dear Dave: The last time I checked, the koine Greek is the Lord's word. Your impoverished state will become greatly enhanced as you wait before Him contemplating the same.

The whole of created life shall be set free/delivered/emancipated from the tyranny of change & decay...

 

[SaintCody777]

For those who think God's plan is to save the world, why did Jesus pray only for those God gave Him and those who would believe in Him through their word? (John 17)

20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me." (John 17:20-1)
Within that very same prayer Jesus actually prayed that the world may know him through his apostles and their work. The next day when he got crucified, He asked the Father to forgive those who crucified him.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I've read it now & answered it. What is your answer to this:

Please explain in a brief sentence why you think saying "Christian hell is a hoax" is a "lie".

"I told you, but you would not listen. Why do you want me to share it again? Do you also want to be one of His disciples?"

Jesus Himself warned of Gehenna, fire, outer darkness, Lake of Fire--that is a lot of warnings about something from One who does is not a liar--if in fact it is a big hoax. Jesus Himself told a story about a soul who was in Hades suffering and Hades isn't even Gehenna. Jesus Himself warned the churches that He would only reward the overcomers in Rev 2 & 3. The end of the Revelation of Jesus Christ to John also speaks of people being cast into the same Lake of Fire as the devil, the beast, the false prophet, death and hades. That's a whole lot of entities thrown into a place that doesn't exist, if "hell is a coax".

So, the author of the article you defend is, at best, being intentionally deceptive by the his choice of words in his title. I choose to believe Jesus. If His issue was with the length of time, then a title like "Hell is not eternal and here's why" or "The Truth about Hell" or "What Real Christians Believe about Hell"; but to claim "hell is a hoax" is an outright lie provable without game-playing Scriptures. To believe all of what God says doesn't require hyper-exaggerating part of the character of God to the exclusion of the rest of the character of God.

You have chosen to put yourself in a position of judging God, if you are wrong--because you have called Him names. I understand that is why you have to convince yourself, to the exclusion of everything that Jesus says, that you are right.