Save everyone?

[Dave L]

Dave when people reason the scriptures together it should be quid pro quo. If you cannot be bother doing that then why should I keep answering any of your questions?

So if you answer my one post that I asked you to answer I will answer yours, the reason being is because you do not want to look at what you believe you only want to look at what I believe.

Fairs fair Dave, lets put BOTH views under the microscope, but to do that you have to be willing to look at your own belief.

resurrection of damnation????

 

[Pneuma3]

resurrection of damnation????

again and again and again these scripture have NOTHING to do with FEW entering in NOW. Yet you keep equating it to the salvation of all in the future and those scripture say NOTHING about the future state of the rest of mankind.

Now for the 4 or 5 time can you please answer this post.

context Dave. that verse does not contradict that few are entering into the kingdom of heaven NOW.

If it is talking about only FEW ever being saved did God then forget his promise to Abe that his seed would be as the stars of heaven and as the sand by the seashore?

Are the stars of the heavens FEW?
Are the sands by the seashore FEW?

Dave when people reason the scriptures together it should be quid pro quo. If you cannot be bother doing that then why should I keep answering any of your questions?

So if you answer my one post that I asked you to answer I will answer yours, the reason being is because you do not want to look at what you believe you only want to look at what I believe.

Fairs fair Dave, lets put BOTH views under the microscope, but to do that you have to be willing to look at your own belief.

When you decide to actually reason the scriptures with me let me know, until then...later...

 

[Dave L]

When you decide to actually reason the scriptures with me let me know, until then...later...

I accept your failure to prove your point.

 

[Pneuma3]

I accept your failure to prove your point.

I did prove my point dave, but because you refuse to answer my 1 (such a big number) post you missed the point.

If those scriptures are referring to a future life as you believe they are and only a FEW are saved then God went back on His promise to Abe.

Which is why you keep refusing to answer my post.

 

[Dave L]

I did prove my point dave, but because you refuse to answer my 1 (such a big number) post you missed the point.

If those scriptures are referring to a future life as you believe they are and only a FEW are saved then God went back on His promise to Abe.

Which is why you keep refusing to answer my post.

resurrection of damnation = you loose.

 

[Pneuma3]

resurrection of damnation = you loose.

oh I see you are playing a game and don't want to come to the truth, for you it is all about winning.

When I became a man I put away childish things.

 

[Dave L]

oh I see you are playing a game and don't want to come to the truth, for you it is all about winning.

When I became a man I put away childish things.

No, just saying you haven't any cattle to go with all that hat.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me." (John 17:20-1)
Within that very same prayer Jesus actually prayed that the world may know him through his apostles and their work. The next day when he got crucified, He asked the Father to forgive those who crucified him.

But, He didn't pray for what you said. He prayed for the Apostles and "for those who believe in Me through their word that they may be one, even as You Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us." He prayed that "so that the world may believe that You sent Me." He wasn't praying the same thing for the world as He was for the others and He CERTAINLY DID NOT pray that the world may know Him. He simply prayed for " that the world may believe that The Father sent The Son."

 

[ClementofA]

"I told you, but you would not listen. Why do you want me to share it again? Do you also want to be one of His disciples?"

Jesus Himself warned of Gehenna, fire, outer darkness, Lake of Fire--that is a lot of warnings about something from One who does is not a liar--if in fact it is a big hoax. Jesus Himself told a story about a soul who was in Hades suffering and Hades isn't even Gehenna. Jesus Himself warned the churches that He would only reward the overcomers in Rev 2 & 3. The end of the Revelation of Jesus Christ to John also speaks of people being cast into the same Lake of Fire as the devil, the beast, the false prophet, death and hades. That's a whole lot of entities thrown into a place that doesn't exist, if "hell is a coax".

So, the author of the article you defend is, at best, being intentionally deceptive by the his choice of words in his title. I choose to believe Jesus. If His issue was with the length of time, then a title like "Hell is not eternal and here's why" or "The Truth about Hell" or "What Real Christians Believe about Hell"; but to claim "hell is a hoax" is an outright lie provable without game-playing Scriptures. To believe all of what God says doesn't require hyper-exaggerating part of the character of God to the exclusion of the rest of the character of God.

You have chosen to put yourself in a position of judging God, if you are wrong--because you have called Him names. I understand that is why you have to convince yourself, to the exclusion of everything that Jesus says, that you are right.

The author seems to define "hell" as "everlasting punishment". Does he anywhere deny the existence in Scripture of the things you referred to such as Gehenna & the Lake of Fire? Nowhere does the Bible ever call Gehenna or the Lake of Fire "hell". The word "hell" doesn't exist in the Scriptures. And "hell" defined as "eternal punishment" is a hoax or deception. It is a deception of Satan, a doctrine of demons. So, given that, the title is not a lie, but spot on, truth.

 

[ClementofA]

And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Luke 13:23–24

Luke 13:23-28
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

That refers to the time of Christ's return & what happens then. It says nothing about final destiny or anyone being pointlessly, sadistically tortured endlessly.

"Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(23) Are there few that be saved?--More accurately, that are being saved, or, that are in the way of salvation. The Greek participle is present, not perfect, and this sense should be borne in mind..."

Luke 13:22-24 . . And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then said one unto him, master, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Are there few that BE saved? Present tense. It does not speak of final destiny.

23 and a certain one said to him, `Sir, are those saved few?' (YLT)
23 And one said unto him, Lord, are they few that are saved? (NASB)
23 Now someone said to Him, "Lord, are few being saved? (CLV)
23 Said and one to him: O lord, are few those being saved? (Diaglott)

Jesus doesn't answer the question directly. He says many will seek to enter "at the straight gate" and shall not "be able". It seems they were trying to enter but, for some reason, didn't have the ability. Jesus does not say the "many" will *never* be able to enter or never be saved. To the contrary, Paul says "many", not few, shall be saved, by which He means all:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf


We might also want to consider these passages in the same book of Luke's gospel:

Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways made smooth;
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

Lk17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

What about all the verses that contradict this?

“All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.” (John 6:37)

Many (most) never heard of Christ.

Who will come to Him (Jn.6:37)? Isaiah says all who were angry with Him:

Isa.45:24 The people will declare, "The LORD is the source of all my righteousness and strength." And all who were angry with him will come to him and be ashamed.

All will be drawn to Christ (Jn.12:32).

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Universalism is Not in the Bible

 

[ClementofA]

How are these to be saved?

“And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.” (Romans 1:28–32)

God gave a king over to an - insane mind - for 7 years (Daniel 4) before Love Omnipotent restored his sanity & he worshipped God.

Dan.4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
34a But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him...
36 At that time my reason returned to me. And my majesty and splendor were restored to me for the glory of my kingdom, and my counselors and my nobles began seeking me out; so I was reestablished in my sovereignty, and surpassing greatness was added to me. 37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride.

Love Omnipotent still seeks to save apostates from the faith:

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

Consider also:

Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.

18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[Der Alte]

시작

<Clem>
...Are there few that BE saved? Present tense. It does not speak of final destiny.
23 and a certain one said to him, `Sir, are those saved few?' (YLT)
23 And one said unto him, Lord, are they few that are saved? (NASB)
23 Now someone said to Him, "Lord, are few being saved? (CLV)
23 Said and one to him: O lord, are few those being saved? (Diaglott)
Jesus doesn't answer the question directly. He says many will seek to enter "at the straight gate" and shall not "be able". It seems they were trying to enter but, for some reason, didn't have the ability. Jesus does not say the "many" will *never* be able to enter or never be saved. To the contrary, Paul says "many", not few, shall be saved, by which He means all:...<end>

종료

Logical fallacy argument from silence. "Luke 13:24 does not say they 'will *never* be able to enter or never be saved"' so that means they will be saved. So if there is nothing that says flying spaghetti monsters don't exist that means they do exist. Who is Lord Jesus or Paul? Paul is not our standard for interpreting scripture, Jesus is. Paul knew the Greek word for "all,"/πᾶς he used it approximately 395 times so if Paul meant "all" in Romans 5:19 why didn't He use the Greek word for "all" instead of the Greek word for "many"/πολύς.
.....Since Jesus, not Paul, is the standard by which everything is measured, when something said by one of the NT writers seems to contradict the words of Jesus we interpret the NT writer to agree with the words of Jesus. We do not ignore the words of Jesus to make scripture supports someone's heterodox assumption/presuppositions.

 

[Der Alte]

God gave a king over to an - insane mind - for 7 years (Daniel 4) before Love Omnipotent restored his sanity & he worshipped God.

Did God restore Nebuchadnezzar in this life or after he died? Do you have any proof texts which show God literally, actually restoring anyone after death? I don't mean inferring it from a verse that does not actually, literally say that. This is another one of those logical fallacies "Since God restored one person, that means He will restore everyone."

 

[FineLinen]

“God has made everything fit beautifully in its appropriate time, but he has also placed ignorance in the human heart so that people cannot discover what God has ordained, from the beginning to the end of their lives.” (Ecclesiastes 3:11)

Dear Dave: How true! God is not discovered, He is revealed by the Spirit of the Lord.

There are many dwelling places in Father's House or many places of abode. Those dimensions are varied running from beyond, beyond to the broadest base of union with Him, the Source of all & the Goal of all.

Our God is the Saviour of all mankind but He is the Saviour malista of those who believe or trust in Him. Among those who trust in Him are those who have been in the Fire of His Glory being hurt over & over again until there is nothing left to "hurt". In short, the purpose of the cross is to do away with you, blessed riddance. And among the malista are a small elite group who follow the Lamb in the withersoever.

Make zero mistake, Dave, the elect are the malista. They are a vital part of the Father's intention to restore the whole creation back into fellowship with the Author & Finisher. They are not the whole enchilada!

 

[FineLinen]

Ta Panta= the all

http://www.kingdomandglory.com/allinall/all05.pdf

 

[FineLinen]

Thomas Allin: Christ Triumphant

Thomas Allin: Christ Triumphant

Andrew Jukes: The 2nd Death & The Restitution Of All Things

The Restitution of All Things, Andrew Jukes

 

[FineLinen]

resurrection of damnation????

Dear Dave: You have no grasp on what the koine krino means!

1. What is damnation?

2. According to the Scriptures, are there degrees of damnation?

3. Are the elect first-fruits of the Father's prevenient grace subject to damnation? Does damnation begin at the House of God?

"For the time is come when damnation must begin at the House of God."

 

[ClementofA]

Logical fallacy argument from silence. "Luke 13:24 does not say they 'will *never* be able to enter or never be saved"' so that means they will be saved.

No fallacy, just facts. Except your fallacy of putting words in other people's mouths that they never said. So where did those words originate? Your erroneous imaginations, false fantasies, & make believe world of endless tortures?

Who is Lord Jesus or Paul? Paul is not our standard for interpreting scripture, Jesus is.

No, Jesus is the author of Paul's inspired inerrant words which are just as inspired & inerrant as any other Scriptures. In fact Jesus said the disciples could not bear to hear many things before His death, but when the Spirit would come He (the Spirit of truth) would teach them, guide them into all truth, and show them things to come.

Paul knew the Greek word for "all,"/πᾶς he used it approximately 395 times so if Paul meant "all" in Romans 5:19 why didn't He use the Greek word for "all" instead of the Greek word for "many"/πολύς.

The word "all" occurs twice in parallel in Roman 5:18. The words "the many" occur twice in parallel in Romans 5:19:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

How "many" humans does the "all" of v.18a & v.18b include, Der Alter? All of them (as in 100%), or "many" of them (as in less than 100%)? Do you think that "all" in v.18 refers to 100% of humanity or "many" of humanity?

Does "all" in verse 18 include Jesus?
Does "all" in verse 18 includes unborn babies?
Does "all" in verse 18 exclude any other humans?

Does "all" in v.18a refer to the exact same "many" humans as "all" in v.18b?

Does "all" in v.18a include exactly the same number of (& the very same) "many" humans as "many" in v.19a? Does "all" (v.18a) equal "many" (v.19a)?

Does "all" in "all have sinned & come short of the glory of God" (Rom.3:23) include 100% of humans, including Jesus & babies, or "many" humans?

Let us look at this verse again:

"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).​

Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

.....Since Jesus, not Paul, is the standard by which everything is measured, when something said by one of the NT writers seems to contradict the words of Jesus we interpret the NT writer to agree with the words of Jesus. We do not ignore the words of Jesus to make scripture supports someone's heterodox assumption/presuppositions.

There's nothing in Luke 13 that contradicts Paul's clear language in support of universalism. Neither have you provided a single word from Jesus that contradicts Jesus words given to Paul in Romans 5:18-19. Nor can you. There are none.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism[/quote]

 

[ClementofA]

This is another one of those logical fallacies "Since God restored one person, that means He will restore everyone."

Who are you quoting? Your own imaginary world again? Evidently missing the point, namely that the posters' text fails as a "proof text" vs biblical universalism. As have a number of texts you've tried to claim oppose universalism.

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