Universalist Understanding?

[FineLinen]

I don't want to rain on you parades, but the Father's house, is his Church.

Dear Marty: In My Father's House are many places of abode. There are many degrees of union & communion, as in "manifold". There are manifold dimensions of the knowledge of our Lord, there are many degrees and intensity of union with Him!

Manifold=

the definition of manifold

Poikilos=

Manifold - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

 

[Douglas the Doug]

First post,Yeah! One thing that I have experienced first hand in different conversations and talking points, is that none of what is said by someone makes sense, or seems way out there is because you(we) are coming from your 'paradigm' of thinking of things, and it seems in my experience most paradigms there is only one, and that is the one that we are always using in christianity's evangelical circles. It is when we hear of something different and 'out there' that it doesn't fit into that scenario. It isn't until you are told or hear of the paradigm that it fits in, does it make sense. Universalism is one of them that needs to be understood of the whole paradigm. This I believe is the issues that are coming about now of the new paradigms that of christianity, we are re-looking at what the bible was really saying to us. I don't have the answers but I do see a shift in the paradigm that is being used in christianity. Using a specific paradigm can and will change a storyline. Christianity has used the same one for quite awhile since the 1500's. It may or may-not be right?

 

[martymonster]

Dear Marty: In My Father's House are many places of abode. There are many degrees of union & communion, as in "manifold". There are manifold dimensions of the knowledge of our Lord, there are many degrees and intensity of union with Him!

Manifold=

the definition of manifold

Poikilos=

Manifold - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

You'll have to expand on that a bit for me, if you don't mind.

P.S. Good to see you again, FineLinen.

 

[FineLinen]

You'll have to expand on that a bit for me, if you don't mind.

P.S. Good to see you again, FineLinen.

Dear Marty: It is good to see you again through this screen.

I know not how to expand on the manifold dimensions of our God. Our Father's House has many places of abode, or many dwelling places. These dimensions of Him reach from the lowest union to the extraordinary, actually described as being "saved to the uttermost", meaning to the farthest edge.

We are all on different stages of a journey whose beginning and ending is the Lord God of Glory. It is not just making it home to His Being, it encompasses dimensions of union with Him, none of which are identical.

My friend, F.L. must leave it there for now. May He expand all of us!

 

[martymonster]

Dear Marty: It is good to see you again through this screen.

I know not how to expand on the manifold dimensions of our God. Our Father's House has many places of abode, or many dwelling places. These dimensions of Him reach from the lowest union to the extraordinary, actually described as being "saved to the uttermost", meaning to the farthest edge.

We are all on different stages of a journey whose beginning and ending is the Lord God of Glory. It is not just making it home to His Being, it encompasses dimensions of union with Him, none of which are identical.

My friend, F.L. must leave it there for now. May He expand all of us!

The reason I asked you to expound on you theory, is because there are a lot of people who take the Bible to be literal, which it clearly is not. That's not you position though, is it?

 

[ClementofA]

I posted:

Verse 17 refers to the lost sinner:

1 Cor.3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

DA replied:

Nonsense! Typical UR twisting of scripture. Who is 1 Cor addressed to? ch. 1 vs. 2 "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus,"

Yet you've admitted yourself that v.17 refers to a lost person who is obviously therefore a sinner, hence (as i said) a lost sinner. Are you now contradicting yourself? Or have you changed your viewpoint?

Who the letter is addressed to is irrelevant to the subject of who 1 Cor.3:15 is referring to. Just because a letter is addressed to someone does not prove its contents are speaking ONLY about the person it is addressed to. It could speak about MANY other people & topics, such as angels, all mankind, nations, Satan, covenants, other churches, Jews, Gentiles, & other topics besides the one solitary church in Corinth.

I posted:

Verse 11 refers to all mankind, including the lost sinner:

1 Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no one lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

DA replied:

Nonsense! The lost world is not building on the foundation of Christ!

Verse 11 says nothing about anyone "building" on the foundation. It says "no one" (i.e. no person) can another foundation "lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ". By "no one" it refers to all people, all mankind, not just the saints in one city, Corinth.

I posted:

Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context of v.15, namely v.17, both refer to lost sinners. That is the context in which verse 15 is to be interpreted as to who it should refer to:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

DA replied:

Total rubbish Paul does not say anything which would indicate that the subject changed from the "saved in the church at Corinth" to "lost sinners."
Placing vs. 15 before vss. 12-14 does not change the subject. The subject of vs. 15, "any man" is the same "any/every man" as in vss. 10-15 those who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ.

Not so. See above.

"This foundation" vs. 12 is "Jesus Christ," vs. 10. Sinners are not building anything, of any material, on the foundation of Jesus Christ!

Sinful works - wood, hay & stubble - are being built on the foundation of Jesus Christ (see 1 Cor.3:12) & will be burnt up (v.13-15). This is being done by the sinners (v.11, 17) referred to above. That includes both sinning believers who lost their salvation (v.17) & unbelieving sinners (v.11). You agree that the believer (cf. 17) builds on the foundation. And having lost his salvation cannot enter the kingdom of God in his sinful lost state (6:9-11). So he must first be saved as by fire (1 Cor.3:15).

As to unbelieving sinners, Paul didn't say only believers can build on the foundation [Christ] works of "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble". Scripture says: "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." (Jn.1:9). He lighteth "every man", not just Christians. So every man could be said to build on Christ by his life's works according to how one responds to the "Light" which "lighteth every man". And the quality of those works, whether of precious metals or useless things (1 Cor.3), would depend on how each one responded to that "Light" which "lighteth every man", not just Christians. If they build with "silver" (1 Cor.3:12), which represents atonement or redemption in the Scriptures, then they build with faith in Christ's death for their sins. Building with "wood, hay and stubble, OTOH, which contain no silver, is not building with faith & represents unbelief, the unbeliever.

"Every man's work" vs. 13 is what was built on the foundation of Jesus Christ, vs. 10, not all the "work" of sinners. Now let us read vss. 16-17.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
(16) Know ye not that ye [plural] are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

The subject of this chapter is laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ. That is who vss. 16-17 are addressed to. Paul said you plural, not "they". Unless you can show some grammatical reason to believe that the subject changed back and forth in this passage.

See above and:

The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Compare the torment of Mt.18:34 with torment in LOF passages in Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10.

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[FineLinen]

The reason I asked you to expound on you theory, is because there are a lot of people who take the Bible to be literal, which it clearly is not. That's not you position though, is it?

Dear Marty: I have over 20 translations of the Scriptures & I love every one of them (some more than others). There are a lot of people (especially fundagelicals) who take all passages of Canon literally. The problem= all expressions of Canon are bathed in "mystery." The Lord's hand picked 12 rarely understood Him & declared "how can these things be? If we think the march of 2000 years gives us a preferred advantage....oh my, thank God for the anointing!

Do you know an astronomer was drawn to a pinprick of light in the heavens of zillions of stars & galaxies recently? Do you know what he found from that one small point of light? Yup, cascading out from that pinprick were more galaxies & stars. I hope you are grasping the significance of our Amazing God & Father!

Mystery - Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words - Bible Dictionary

 

[martymonster]

Dear Marty: I have over 20 translations of the Scriptures & I love every one of them (some more than others). There are a lot of people (especially fundagelicals) who take all passages of Canon literally. The problem= all expressions of Canon are bathed in "mystery." The Lord's hand picked 12 rarely understood Him & declared "how can these things be? If we think the march of 2000 years gives us a preferred advantage....oh my, thank God for the anointing!

Do you know an astronomer was drawn to a pinprick of light in the heavens of zillions of stars & galaxies recently? Do you know what he found from that one small point of light? Yup, cascading out from that pinprick were more galaxies & stars. I hope you are grasping the significance of our Amazing God & Father!

Mystery - Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words - Bible Dictionary

Well, I agree that the scriptures are bathed in mystery, but I don't think that means that we can't understand them.

Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[FineLinen]

Well, I agree that the scriptures are bathed in mystery, but I don't think that means that we can't understand them.

Dear Marty: I did not infer we cannot understand them. All one needs is the opening of the mind & heart as He leads us down the twists and turns of His movings. He leads each of us into Himself from which we begin to grasp what is written in black & white. Do not forget those white spaces between the lines!

 

[Der Alte]

I posted:
Verse 17 refers to the lost sinner:
1 Cor.3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
DA replied:
Yet you've admitted yourself that v.17 refers to a lost person who is obviously therefore a sinner, hence (as i said) a lost sinner. Are you now contradicting yourself? Or have you changed your viewpoint?
Who the letter is addressed to is irrelevant to the subject of who 1 Cor.3:15 is referring to. Just because a letter is addressed to someone does not prove its contents are speaking ONLY about the person it is addressed to. It could speak about MANY other people & topics, such as angels, all mankind, nations, Satan, covenants, other churches, Jews, Gentiles, & other topics besides the one solitary church in Corinth.
I posted:
Verse 11 refers to all mankind, including the lost sinner:
1 Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no one lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
DA replied:
Verse 11 says nothing about anyone "building" on the foundation. It says "no one" (i.e. no person) can another foundation "lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ". By "no one" it refers to all people, all mankind, not just the saints in one city, Corinth.
I posted:
Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context of v.15, namely v.17, both refer to lost sinners. That is the context in which verse 15 is to be interpreted as to who it should refer to:
1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
DA replied:
Not so. See above.
Sinful works - wood, hay & stubble - are being built on the foundation of Jesus Christ (see 1 Cor.3:12) & will be burnt up (v.13-15). This is being done by the sinners (v.11, 17) referred to above. That includes both sinning believers who lost their salvation (v.17) & unbelieving sinners (v.11). You agree that the believer (cf. 17) builds on the foundation. And having lost his salvation cannot enter the kingdom of God in his sinful lost state (6:9-11). So he must first be saved as by fire (1 Cor.3:15).
As to unbelieving sinners, Paul didn't say only believers can build on the foundation [Christ] works of "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble". Scripture says: "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." (Jn.1:9). He lighteth "every man", not just Christians. So every man could be said to build on Christ by his life's works according to how one responds to the "Light" which "lighteth every man". And the quality of those works, whether of precious metals or useless things (1 Cor.3), would depend on how each one responded to that "Light" which "lighteth every man", not just Christians. If they build with "silver" (1 Cor.3:12), which represents atonement or redemption in the Scriptures, then they build with faith in Christ's death for their sins. Building with "wood, hay and stubble, OTOH, which contain no silver, is not building with faith & represents unbelief, the unbeliever.....

Do you have anything but repeating the same specious arguments over and over and over? Evidently not. Repeating the same false rhetoric multiple times does not somehow make it true. You twist scripture, you twist the sources you quote and now you even twist my words accusing me of saying something I certainly did not say.

Tertullian The Five Books Against Marcion. Book V chap. IV
And was it not Paul himself who was there foretold, destined “to be taken away from Judah” - that is, from Judaism - for the erection of Christianity, in order “to lay that only foundation, which is Christ?” (1Co_3:11) Of this work the Creator also by the same prophet says, “Behold, I lay in Sion for a foundation a precious stone and honourable; and he that resteth thereon shall not be confounded.” (Isa_28:16) Unless it be, that God professed Himself to be the builder up of an earthly work, that so He might not give any sign of His Christ, as destined to be the foundation of such as believe in Him, upon which every man should build at will the superstructure of either sound or worthless doctrine; forasmuch as it is the Creator’s function, when a man’s work shall be tried by fire, (or) when a reward shall be recompensed to him by fire; because it is by fire that the test is applied to the building which you erect upon the foundation which is laid by Him, that is, the foundation of His Christ.

Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book V.chap. VI [student of Polycarp student of John]
2. Whence also he says, that this handiwork is “the temple of God,” thus declaring: “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man, therefore, will defile the temple of God, him will God destroy: for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.” (1Co_3:16) Here he manifestly declares the body to be the temple in which the Spirit dwells. As also the Lord speaks in reference to Himself, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. He spake this, however,” it is said, “of the temple of His body.” (Joh_2:19-21) And not only does he (the apostle) acknowledge our bodies to be a temple, but even the temple of Christ, saying thus to the Corinthians, “Know ye not that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot?” (1Co_3:17) He speaks these things, not in reference to some other spiritual man; for a being of such a nature could have nothing to do with an harlot: but he declares “our body,” that is, the flesh which continues in sanctity and purity, to be “the members of Christ;” but that when it becomes one with an harlot, it becomes the members of an harlot. And for this reason he said, “If any man defile the temple of God, him will God destroy.” How then is it not the utmost blasphemy to allege, that the temple of God, in which the Spirit of the Father dwells, and the members of Christ, do not partake of salvation, but are reduced to perdition? Also, that our bodies are raised not from their own substance, but by the power of God, he says to the Corinthians, “Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. But God hath both raised up the Lord, and shall raise us up by His own power

Clement of Alexandria The Stromata, Or Miscellanies. Book V. chap. IV
According to the grace,” it is said, “given to me as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation. And another buildeth on it gold and silver, precious stones.” (1Co_3:10-13) Such is the gnostic superstructure on the foundation of faith in Christ Jesus. But “the stubble, and the wood, and the hay,” are the additions of heresies. “But the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is.” In allusion to the gnostic edifice also in the Epistle to the Romans, he says, “For I desire to see you, that I may impart unto you a spiritual gift, that ye may be established.” (Rom_1:11) It was impossible that gifts of this sort could be written without disguise.​

 

[ClementofA]

Do you have anything but repeating the same specious arguments over and over and over? Evidently not. Repeating the same false rhetoric multiple times does not somehow make it true. You twist scripture, you twist the sources you quote and now you even twist my words accusing me of saying something I certainly did not say.

​

Evidently your post failed to point out where i allegedly twisted your words. Or how i twisted scripture. Or how i twisted the sources i quote. It's just one unsupported accusation after another.

As for your quotes from uninspired, errant, nonbiblical writers, why are you still posting them after you said:

Irrelevant not scripture.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Cor.15:28 Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects ALL to Him, that God may be All in ALL.)

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Lk.12:47 That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows.

Lk.15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness,
and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

1 Tim 4:10 – For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

1 Tim.2:3 God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

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[martymonster]

Dear Marty: I did not infer we cannot understand them. All one needs is the opening of the mind & heart as He leads us down the twists and turns of His movings. He leads each of us into Himself from which we begin to grasp what is written in black & white. Do not forget those white spaces between the lines!

LOL! Sorry man, my bad!

 

[hedrick]

This is another case of there being apparently conflicting verses in Scripture.

While there are some verses that seem to support the Universalist view, there are many more that appear to slam the door on it! You have cited some of the latter ones.

I agree with this. I've spent lots of time following these arguments and checking Scripture. I'm convinced that Paul thought that at the end everyone would be Christ's. Jesus (particularly in Matthew) seems more easily understood as speaking of the final destruction of some. It's virtually impossible to combine these without unnatural exegesis.

The best hope I see is to understand Jesus as speaking of temporary punishment. That was certainly a common Jewish view. Paul speaks in 1 Corinthians 5:5 of destruction that ultimately results in salvation. It's also pretty clear that Jesus saw his mission as bringing the Kingdom now, on earth as it is in heaven. Possibly being excluded from the Kingdom thus refers to the immediate Kingdom, and Matthew's "eternal" punishment in 25:46 is the Jewish concept of temporary punishment, referred to as eternal because it's in the afterlife.

But I don't think this is how we'd understand Jesus if we didn't have Paul. That's why I've tended to argue for annihilation, which I think is the best way to understand Jesus (when his imagery is read against its OT background), and possibly the Revelation (though I think it's ambiguous). You might be able to reconcile Paul with this. I don't think you can possibly understand Paul as accepting eternal torment, nor do I think it's consistent with any Christian view of God.

 

[hedrick]

The best argument for universalism is that the NT portrays Jesus as defeating Satan. In the conventional view, Satan is in control of the world, and God manages to rescue a few people from it. But both Jesus and Paul see him as wholly defeated. The defeat isn't fully visible now, which is why we're not in the New Jerusalem yet, but his eventual defeat is sure.

How can we believe that and believe that most people will be damned? If damnation is basically Satan's work, and he is defeated, there's a problem. To say that most people end up rejected, we have to say that rejection is God's plan. He only wants to save a few of us. Of course that's acceptable to Calvinists. But I don't think it's Biblical. In the Bible God wants everyone to be saved. And most Christians reject the Calvinist vision. But that's the only vision in which eternal damnation of most people makes sense. In the NT, Satan is the enemy of humanity.

 

[Der Alte]

I agree with this. I've spent lots of time following these arguments and checking Scripture. I'm convinced that Paul thought that at the end everyone would be Christ's. Jesus (particularly in Matthew) seems more easily understood as speaking of the final destruction of some. It's virtually impossible to combine these without unnatural exegesis.
The best hope I see is to understand Jesus as speaking of temporary punishment. That was certainly a common Jewish view. Paul speaks in 1 Corinthians 5:5 of destruction that ultimately results in salvation. It's also pretty clear that Jesus saw his mission as bringing the Kingdom now, on earth as it is in heaven. Possibly being excluded from the Kingdom thus refers to the immediate Kingdom, and Matthew's "eternal" punishment in 25:46 is the Jewish concept of temporary punishment, referred to as eternal because it's in the afterlife.
But I don't think this is how we'd understand Jesus if we didn't have Paul. That's why I've tended to argue for annihilation, which I think is the best way to understand Jesus (when his imagery is read against its OT background), and possibly the Revelation (though I think it's ambiguous). You might be able to reconcile Paul with this. I don't think you can possibly understand Paul as accepting eternal torment, nor do I think it's consistent with any Christian view of God.

…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
=================
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishmen than death or nonexistence. A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced those beliefs.

 

[martymonster]

The best argument for universalism is that the NT portrays Jesus as defeating Satan. In the conventional view, Satan is in control of the world, and God manages to rescue a few people from it. But both Jesus and Paul see him as wholly defeated. The defeat isn't fully visible now, which is why we're not in the New Jerusalem yet, but his eventual defeat is sure.

How can we believe that and believe that most people will be damned? If damnation is basically Satan's work, and he is defeated, there's a problem. To say that most people end up rejected, we have to say that rejection is God's plan. He only wants to save a few of us. Of course that's acceptable to Calvinists. But I don't think it's Biblical. In the Bible God wants everyone to be saved. And most Christians reject the Calvinist vision. But that's the only vision in which eternal damnation of most people makes sense. In the NT, Satan is the enemy of humanity.

Define "defeated"?

 

[FineLinen]

LOL! Sorry man, my bad!

Dear Marty: Any person that grasps God's mercy not expiring will never be bad!

From Him, through Him, for Him

Yes, our God is the ta panta, the Source, the Guide & the Goal of the all.

"We can do nothing, we say sometimes, we can only pray. That, we feel, is a terribly precarious second-best. So long as we can fuss and work and rush about, so long as we can lend a hand, we have some hope; but if we have to fall back upon God -- ah, then things must be critical indeed!" -A.J Gossip-

 

[Pneuma3]

If eternal condemnation is not real, then that means we can do anything we want in this life,

This sounds just like those people who accused Paul of preaching grace, if grace is true then that means we can do anything we want in this life.

But what was Paul's reply to such sentiment.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

And therein lies a big part of the problem you guys do not realize those of us who believe in the salvation of all are teaching grace, while you guys still judge via the law.

 

[Albion]

I agree with this. I've spent lots of time following these arguments and checking Scripture.

And I'm pleased to have us agree, considering that it often seems to go the other way.

But I don't think this is how we'd understand Jesus if we didn't have Paul.

Yes. I didn't identify any verses in my earlier post, but having just checked the list I made some time ago of ones that seem to support Universalism, almost all of them are from Paul.

 

[Pneuma3]

…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
=================
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishmen than death or nonexistence. A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced those beliefs.

And that proves absolutely nothing, the 3 main doctrines of the early church were eternal torment, annihilation and universal salvation.

That some Jews believed in ECT prove nothing other then some Jews believed in ECT.