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Featured Universalist Understanding?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Greg J., Oct 8, 2018.

  1. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
    Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
    Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.



    I couldn't help but notice, that those who take the part about everlasting fire and Hell fire, literally, aren't gong to the same lengths to try and convince everyone that the parts of the verse about gouging out eyes and cutting off limbs, are also literal.

    I have to ask, how does one decide which is literal and which is figurative? It's either all literal, or all figurative, otherwise you have to explain how you arrive at that conclusion, in which case, you've got a lot of explaining to do. I don't recall God giving anyone the authority to take those kinds of liberties with his words.

    Apparently, it's all literal, until it comes to selling all you have and giving it to the poor or removing parts of ones body.
     
  2. Greg J.

    Greg J. Well-Known Member Supporter

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    @ClementofA, thanks for taking all the time to post those. I am going to have to go back and read them carefully. (As I said, I'm not going to read 3rd party text.) A quick skim makes it seem like you still have not done what I asked. Let me make it simpler:

    4. “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; (Matthew 25:41, 1995 NASB)

    What does "eternal fire" mean?
     
  3. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Greg: You need to go back and read all the responses carefully!

    Our God is a consuming Fire

    Fire Is A Beneficent Agent


    How shallow is the common view of "fire" as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of....

    "Life"....Isa. 4:5

    "Purification"....Matt. 3:3

    "Atonement"....Lev. 16:27

    "Transformation".....2 Pet. 3:10

    And never ever of preservation alive for purposes of anguish.

    And the popular view selects precisely this latter use, never found in Scripture, and represents it as the sole end of God's fiery judgments! If we take either the teaching of Scripture or of nature, we see that the dominant conception of fire is of a beneficent agent. Nature tells us that fire is a necessary condition of life; its mission is to sustain life; and to purify, even when it dissolves.

    Extinguish the stores of fire in the universe, and you extinguish all being; universal death reigns. Most strikingly is this connection of fire and life shown in the facts of nutrition. For we actually burn in order to live; our food is the fuel; our bodies are furnaces; our nutrition is a process of combustion; we are, in fact, "aflame to the very tips of our fingers." And so it is that round the fireside of life and work gather: when we think of home we speak of the family hearth.

    Fire Is The Sign Of God's Being

    And what Nature teaches, Scripture enforces in no doubtful tone. It is significant to find the Great Source of life constantly associated with fire in the Bible.

    Fire is the sign, not of God's wrath, but of His being.

    When God comes to Ezekiel there is a "fire unfolding itself" (Ezek. 1:4, 27) and "the appearance of fire." (Ezek. 8:2)

    Christ's eyes are a flame of "fire" (Rev. 1:14).

    The seven lamps of "fire" are the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5). So a fiery stream is said "to go before God," His throne is fiery flame, its wheels are burning fire (Daniel 7:9,10). His eyes are lamps of fire (Dan. 10:6); He is a wall of fire (Zeph. 2:5). At His touch the mountains smoke (Psl. 104:32). And God's ministers are a flame of fire (Psl. 104:4...Heb. 1:7). It is not meant to deny that the Divine Fire chastises and destroys.

    Purification, Not Ruin Is The Final Outcome

    It is meant that purification, not ruin, is the final outcome of that fire from above, which consumes--call it, if you please, a paradox--in order that it may save. For if God is Love, then by what but by love can His fires be kindled? They are, in fact, the very flame of love; and so we have the key to the words, "Thy God is a consuming Fire," and "Thy God is a merciful God" (Deut. 4:24-31). So God devours the earth with fire, in order that finally all may call upon the name of the Lord (Zeph. 3:8,9)--words full of significance.

    So Isaiah tells us of God's cleansing the daughters of Zion by the spirit of burning (Isa. 4:4)--suggestive words. And, so again, "By fire will the Lord plead with all flesh." (Isa. 66:16) And Christ coming to save, comes to purify by "fire." (Mal. 3:2).

    Fire A Sign Of Favourable Response?

    Let us note, also, how often "fire" is the sign of a favourable answer from God; when God appears to Moses at the Bush it is in "fire:" God answers Gideon by "fire;" and David by "fire." (1 Chron. 21:26) Again, when He answers Elijah on Carmel, it is by "fire;" and in "fire" Elijah himself ascends to God. So God sends to Elisha, for aid, chariots and horses of "fire." So when the Psalmist calls, God answers by "fire." (Psl. 18:6-8)

    And by the pillar of "fire" God gave His law. And in "fire" the great gift of the Holy Ghost descends at Pentecost."

    Fire Is The Portion Of All

    These words bring us to the New Testament. There we find that "fire," like judgment, so far from being the sinner's portion ONLY, is the portion of all. Like God's judgment again, it is not future merely, but present; it is "already kindled," always kindled: its object is not torment, but cleansing. The proof comes from the lips of our Lord Himself. "I am come to send fire on the earth," for it is certain that He came as a Saviour. Thus, coming to save, Christ comes with fire, nay, with fire already kindled. He comes to baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

    Therefore, it is that Christ teaches in solemn passage (usually misunderstood, Mark 9:43) that everyone shall be salted with fire. And so the "fire is to try every man's work." He whose work fails is saved (mark the word saved), not damned "so as by fire," by consuming what is evil, saves and refines.

    The antient tradition that represents Christ as saying, "He that is near Me is near fire," expresses a vital truth. So Malachi, describes Christ as being in His saving work "like a refiner's fire." And so, echoing Deut 4:24-31, we are told that "our God is a consuming Fire," i.e., God in His closest relation to us; God is Love; God is Spirit: but "Our God is a consuming Fire"--a consuming Fire, "by which the whole material substance of sin is destroyed."

    When, then, we read (Psl. 18:12) that "coals of fire" go before God, we think of the deeds of love which are "coals of fire" to our enemies. (Rom. 12:20) Thus, we who teach hope for all men, do not shrink from but accept, in their fullest meaning, these mysterious "fires" of gehenna, of which Christ speaks (kindled for purification), as in a special sense the sinner's doom in the coming ages. But taught by the clearest statements of Scripture (confirmed as they are by many analogies of Nature), we see in these "fires" not a denial of, but a mode of fulfilling, the promise--

    "Behold, I make all things new."

    -Christ Triumphant-
     
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  4. Greg J.

    Greg J. Well-Known Member Supporter

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    @FineLinen, thanks. That is the kind of explanation I was looking for. It actually helps me understand a lot.

    If what you say is true, why are people going to be in the fire eternally? Is the purification never finished?

    Do you believe the Lake of Fire is a place of purification?

    And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Revelation 20:10, 1984 NASB)
     
  5. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <MM>Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
    Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
    Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
    I couldn't help but notice, that those who take the part about everlasting fire and Hell fire, literally, aren't gong to the same lengths to try and convince everyone that the parts of the verse about gouging out eyes and cutting off limbs, are also literal.
    I have to ask, how does one decide which is literal and which is figurative? It's either all literal, or all figurative, otherwise you have to explain how you arrive at that conclusion, in which case, you've got a lot of explaining to do. I don't recall God giving anyone the authority to take those kinds of liberties with his words.
    Apparently, it's all literal, until it comes to selling all you have and giving it to the poor or removing parts of ones body.
    <end>
    There is an old maxim about interpreting the Bible, "If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to seek any other sense." Will cutting off a limb, gouging out an eye or selling everything one has prevent someone from being cast in everlasting fire? I'm not aware of any command from Jesus which states that. Therefore it must be hyperbole. However being cast into everlasting fire is supported by several other scriptures.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
  6. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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  7. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <GJ>@ClementofA, thanks for taking all the time to post those. I am going to have to go back and read them carefully. (As I said, I'm not going to read 3rd party text.) A quick skim makes it seem like you still have not done what I asked. Let me make it simpler:
    4. “Then He will also say to those on His left, Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; (Matthew 25:41, 1995 NASB)
    What does "eternal fire" mean?<end>
    The Greek word translated "eternity" is "aion." The Greek word translated "eternal" is "aionios" There are some who argue that "aion" does not mean "eternity" and "aionios" does not mean "eternal" because they sometimes refer to things that are not eternal.
    .....In the following twenty three [23] verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as eternal, everlasting etc.:

    …..In the NT “aion/aionios” refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.
    [1]Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    [2]Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
    [3]Luke 1:33
    (33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
    In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
    [4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
    (18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” a indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [5]2 Corinthians 5:1
    (1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
    In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with an ages long house which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [7]1 Peter 1:23
    (23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …

    1 Peter 1:25
    (25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
    In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
    [8]1 Timothy 6:16
    (16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
    [9]Galatians 6:8
    (8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
    [10]John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [11]John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
    [12]1 John 2:17
    (17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”
    [13]1 Peter 5:10
    (10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here means “eternal.”
    [14]Romans 2:7
    (7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
    [15]1 Timothy 1:17.
    (17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [16]Revelation 14:11
    (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[ εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
    [17]John 10:28
    (28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    In this verse “aionion” and “aiona” are paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand” If “aionion” and “aiona” are only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” and “aiona” by definition here mean eternal.
    [18]John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
    [19]John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal or everlasting life.
    [20]John 5:24
    (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
    [21]Romans 5:21
    (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
    In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
    [22]Ephesians 3:21
    (21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
    In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
    [23]John 8:51
    (51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."
    According to noted Greek scholar MarvinVincent "The double negative “ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying they will die, i.e. see death, unto the age. By definition aion means eternity.


     
  8. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    Wrong ALL aions come to an END.


     
  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Greg: There is exactly one word in Scripture that demonstrates eternal, that one word =aidios used in 2 verses of Canon relating to the Aidios God of glory.

    The Lake of Fire has one defining ingredient, theion. Would you like to guess what is the foundational root for theion? THEOS.
     
  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I call this the "Neener, neener, neener I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" response. It does not address any of the 23 passages I quoted. Gary Amirault is not the end all, be all expert on koine Greek and the NT.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
  11. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    Yup the scriptures are right that ALL aions come to an END, thus YOU are wrong. Glad you could finally admit it.
     
  12. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Greg: You have not been paying attention.

    On the foundation of the text of Matthew 25 what are the qualifying factors for >>>>>

    1. "Everlasting life" ?

    2. "Everlasting punishment" ?

    Bonus question= The 10 virgins are referred to in this same chapter. Who are the virgins and why are 5 wise & 5 unwise? You will note they are ALL virgins!

    4. “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; (Matthew 25:41, 1995 NASB)

    5. “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46, 1995 NASB)
     
  13. Greg J.

    Greg J. Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thanks all for your help understanding the Universalist point of view. I am done at this point. I did not learn what I believe from any humans, but received by revelation from the Holy Spirit. Although I, myself, am imperfect, I'm going to stick to what He taught me, and continues to teach me.

    The many committees of the many Bible translations knew what they were doing when they chose the English word "eternal" for use with torment in the Lake of Fire—where all those who have rejected God's salvation must go by their own decision and will, having rejected salvation. This is God's justice which is inseparable from His love and His complete, everlasting purity. Torment is not what God wants for anyone, which is why Jesus died and we are commanded to tell people about it. We are commanded to pray for enemies. (See Ezekiel 18:23 and 33:11.)

    People are going to eternal torment because millennia of humans kept rejecting what God said to be saved, and we now we grow up in a mostly spiritually blind and dead world. It has produced such pain that people are drawn to anything if it is comforting and affirms they are OK.

    For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. (2 Timothy 4:3, 1984 NIV)

    If eternal condemnation is not real, then that means we can do anything we want in this life, and it won't have fearful, permanent consequences, but that is refuted by nature itself. It is impossible to undo our actions if we don't like the consequences. It is also refuted by Scripture in that there is right and wrong, and it is never OK to do wrong—and it never becomes OK. This is a statement about people after they are finally judged, and being consumed is an act with finality:

    but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. (Hebrews 10:27, 1995 NASB)

    Because God is the Lord of all, He will be condemning people because that is what is just, but for most people, it is equally accurate to say that they are condemning themselves and all God is going to do is step out of the way and let the natural consequences of what they persisted in choosing come on them. It's not God's fault if he yells "Fire!" and people don't believe him. God has and still is going overboard to save people, and He is still mostly ignored. Our darkness and destiny is of our own making.

    People's sinful nature cannot withstand the Light, but their spirits are somewhere when their bodies die, and it is immoral for God to give anyone purification through a rebirth in Christ without them having chosen to submit their lives by faith to the will of the real God who's Son died for us, and not the will of an imagined God.

    The OT reveals in the physical realm what the NT reveals about the spiritual realm. When God commanded the complete and final genocide of sinful cultures, it was in part to give us a picture of what will happen in the spiritual realm.

    These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. (1 Corinthians 10:11, 1984 NIV)
     
  14. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Greg: Only what He teaches you in the manifold revelations of Himself will be of value to you, or any of us. If & when you would like to pursue further just whistle.

    Then opened He their understanding...
     
  15. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I have admitted nothing! I consider your refusal to address the 23 vss. as an admission that I am correct and you are wrong. Here are the first three from that list.
    [1]Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    [2]Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
    [3]Luke 1:33
    (33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
    In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
     
  16. Shempster

    Shempster ImJustMe Supporter

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    But wouldn't that notion eliminate the free will theory?
     
  17. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Instead of all these copy/pasted arguments from and links to your pet UR websites here is my own study of olam and ad in the OT.
    Thirty six [36] OT verses where the word “olam” paired with or contrasted with adjectives and adjectival phrases which describe/define the word “olam” as eternal, everlasting etc.

    Exodus 3:15
    (15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever,[עולם/olam] and this is my memorial unto all generations.
    In this vs. “name olam” is paired with “unto all generations.” “Age(s),”a finite period, does not equate to “unto all generations,”“for ever” does.
    Psalms 21:4
    (4) He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad]
    In this vs. “olam” and “ad” are paired with “length of days”. “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to length of days, “for ever and ever” does.
    Psalms 45:17
    (17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever [עולם/olam] and ever:[עד/ad]
    In this vs. “olam” and “ad” are paired with “in all generations,” “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “in all generations”, “for ever and ever” does.
    Psa 33:11
    (11) The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, [ עולם] the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
    In this vs. “standeth olam” is paired with “to all generations,”“age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “for ever” does.
    Psa 146:10 The LORD will reign for ever, [עולם/olam] Thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Hallelujah.[“ all generations” also Ps 100:5, 106:31]
    In this vs. “reign olam” is paired with “unto all generations,”“age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “for ever” does.
    Psa 37:28
    (28) For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: [ עולם/olam] but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
    In this vs. “preserved olam” is contrasted with “the wicked shall be cut off,””age(s),”a finite period, is not opposite of “the wicked shall be cut off,” “for ever” is.
    Ecc 3:14
    (14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever:[ עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
    In this vs. עולם/olam is equated with. “nothing can be added or taken away” from God's acts. “Age(s),“a finite period, does not equate with “nothing can be added or taken away” from God's acts, “for ever” does.
    Isa 51:6
    (6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
    In this vs. “salvation olam” is equated with “shall not be abolished”, “age(s),” a finite period, is not opposite of “shall not be abolished,” “forever” is.
    Isa 51:8
    (8) For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my salvation from generation to generation.
    In this vs. “righteousness olam” is paired with “from generation to generation” “age(s),”a finite period, does not equate to “from generation to generation.” “for ever” does.
    Dan 7:14
    (14) He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting [ עולם] dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
    In this vs. “olam dominion” is equated with “will not pass away” and “never be destroyed.” “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not pass away,””never be destroyed”, “everlasting dominion” does.
    Jer 23:40
    (40) I will bring on you everlasting disgrace [ עולם]—everlasting shame [ עולם] that will not be forgotten."
    In this vs. “olam disgrace and shame” is paired with “will not be forgotten.” “age(s) a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,””everlasting” does.
    Jer 50:5
    (5) They will ask the way to Zion and turn their faces toward it. They will come and bind themselves to the LORD in an everlasting [ עולם] covenant that will not be forgotten.
    In this vs. “olam covenant” is paired with “will not be forgotten,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,” ”everlasting” does.
    Exo 27:21
    (21) In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever [עולם/olam] unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.
    In this verse עולם/olam is paired with “unto their generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “unto their generations,” “for ever” does.
    Exo 30:21
    (21) So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever [עולם/olam] to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.
    [“throughout their generations “ also Lev 10:9, 17:7, 23:14, 23:21, 23:41, Num 10:8, 15:15, 18:23, Psa 145;13, Ex 40:15, Lev 7:36][/indent]
    In this verse “statute עולם/olam” is paired with “die not” and “throughout their generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “die not” and “throughout their. Generations,” “forever” does.

    Psa 45:17
    (17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[ עד/ad][“in all generations” also Ps 100:5, 106:31]
    In this verse עולם/olam and . עד/ad are paired with “in all generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “in all generations,” “for ever and ever” does.
    Psa 148:6
    (6) He hath also stablished them for ever [עולם/olam] and ever:[ עד/ad] he hath made a decree which shall not pass.
    In this verse עולם/olam and עד/ad are paired with “shall not pass.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not pass.” “forever and ever” does.
    Isa 55:13
    (13) Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting [ עולם/olam] sign that shall not be cut off.
    In this verse “ עולם/olam sign” is paired with ”shall not be cut off.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be cut off.” “everlasting does.
    [26]Isa 56:5
    (5) Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting [ עולם/olam] name, that shall not be cut off.
    In this verse “ עולם/olam name” is paired with ”shall not be cut off.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be cut off.” “everlasting” does.
    Jer 32:40
    (40) And I will make an everlasting “[עולם/olam] covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
    In this verse “עולם/olam covenant” is paired with “I will not turn away” and ”they shall not depart from me.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “I will not turn away” and “they shall not depart from me.” “everlasting” does.
    Jer 50:5
    (5) They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual [עולם/olam] covenant that shall not be forgotten.
    In this verse “עולם/olam covenant” is paired with ”shall not be forgotten” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be forgotten.” “perpetual covenant” does.
    Lam 5:19
    (19) Thou, O LORD, remainest for ever; “[עולם/olam] thy throne from generation to generation.
    In this verse “עולם/olam” is paired with “from generation to generation.” “Age(s) does not equate to “from generation to generation”, “for ever” does.
    Dan 4:3
    (3) How great are His signs! and how mighty are His wonders! His kingdom is an everlasting [עלם/alam] kingdom, and His dominion is from generation to generation.[עם־דר ודר/am-dor w’dor]
    In this verse [עלם/alam] is paired with “from generation to generation.” “Age(s) does not equate to “from generation to generation”, “for ever” does.
    Jer 10:10-11
    (10) But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal [עלם/alam] King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath.

    (11) "Tell them this: 'These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.'"
    In this passage the living God, the eternal [עלם/alam] King has been contrasted with false gods which perish “the Living God the age(s)” is not the opposite of false gods that perish, the living God, the eternal is.


     
  18. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's a mistranslation, a deception, an opinion, an interpretation, not a proper translation, of those biased to the endless hell view that they've forced into many Bible versions. It is more literally & accurately translated "eonian fire". Eonian is an English word. You can look it up in some online dictionaries. As i said:

    Rather than blindly believing your 2 selected cherry picked biased opinions, why not consider some other sources. Or, better yet, look at how the ancients themselves used the word aionion. The following examples show it was often used of finite duration:

    In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

    4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

    The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

    Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

    Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

    Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

    Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

    In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

    Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

    Two Questions
    Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

    If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

    How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

    Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

    ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

    could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

    12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
     
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    They won't be in the fire eternally.

    It's a "place" where torments are experienced. The blood of Christ has not expired so it is still available to purge the sins of those in the fire whenever they come into repentance & faith in Christ. God's wrath, judgements, punishments in Scripture are always corrective & for the good of the offenders, never sadistic, pointless, endless, hopeless, & insane.

    Some literal translations say:

    and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

    And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

    ...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

    American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
    Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

    Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

    And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

    But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

    24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

    So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

    See also posts 130 & 131 @

    What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

    Regarding 12 points re ages of ages ending.

    Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

    When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

    Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

    2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

    Chapter Five

    Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?


    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

    This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

    Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

    Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
    and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
    and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

    forever and ever: a poor translation:

    Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

    Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

    #4

    Aeon - Wikipedia

    AIN -- AINIOS

    The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

    12 points re forever and ever being finite:
    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    ---
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    They just mistranslated the Greek word in agreement with their pro endless hell biased interpretation of the Scriptures. Is that being honest or deceptive? Why did so many, if not a majority, in the early church disagree with them:

    Early Church Writings Fathers:

    Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

    Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church

    Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, hell, punishment, doctrine) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

    Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/booksonwebsite/©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf

    Universalism...First 500 Years


    ******************************************************



    Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

    Two Questions
    Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

    If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

    How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

    Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

    ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

    could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

    12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
     
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