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Featured Universalist Understanding?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Greg J., Oct 8, 2018.

  1. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Hey Der Alter.
    May I ask why you don't wrap a post your quoting, instead of putting begin and end in quotes and putting the post between 'em?:


    It makes it a little more difficult to separate your post from the one your quoting.
    But that is just me.........Thanks
     
  2. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Much more. Even more. Abounded

    Romans 5:15 - But the gift is not like the trespass.

    "But God's free gift immeasurably outweighs the transgression. For if through the transgression of the one individual the mass of mankind have died, infinitely greater is the generosity with which God's grace, and the gift given in His grace which found expression in the one man Jesus Christ, have been bestowed on the mass of mankind."

    You may understand the Lord of Glory having a mere intent, but alas, His intentions escalate into His Will! He wills all mankind to be saved, and that is precisely what shall transpire. Again, the same polus made sinners is precisely the polus made righteous: every last rotten sinner!

    Adam1= the polus made sinners>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Last Adam= the polus made righteous.

    Compare

    Romans 5:18 - Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

    "It follows then that just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which extends to the whole race, so also the result of a single decree of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal which extends to the whole race."
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
  3. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I do that so when my post is quoted I can see what I was replying to because some replies standing alone don't make much sense. I put something like <Otherguy> and <end> in the quote to separate my replies from the other guy's. More so true when my post is a page or more back.
     
  4. Greg J.

    Greg J. Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Since no one has done as I asked in the OP, I'll take a single example (#4). (I'm not going to try to have a discussion with someone who can't answer follow-up questions, such as a web page of text.)

    The word eternal in Matthew 25:41 is translated from the Greek word αιώνιον (aionion, an inflection of aionios). Mickelson-Strong defines this word as perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well). BAGD defines the word as 3. without end.

    In the verse the group of people Jesus is referring to is going into the eternal fire. The eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. The devil and his angels will never be freed from that place, because there is nothing that can pay for their sin debt to God. Jesus was able to pay for our sin debt because he was human (Hebrews 2:17). The devil and his angels rejected God and did not do His will, and still do not do his will. On the day of judgment there will still be people who are not willing to do God's will.

    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 7:21, 1984 NIV)

    Jesus does not refer to people who did the will of the Father in life, but uses the present active tense to say only those who are doing the will of the Father will enter the kingdom of heaven. No one can be doing the will of someone else if they do not believe in the someone else—they would only be doing the imagined will of an imagined other. Their hearts would not yielded to the real God's Lordship. And if they intellectually agreed God was real, but had not given control of their lives to God, then they knowingly rejected God (and will be punished more severely—Luke 12:47-48).

    There is nothing in all the Bible that indicates that a person's eternal destination can be changed after they die. We will all face judgment after we die (Hebrews 9:27 and many others). Judgment is the Day when people's eternal destination will be decided. There won't ever again be a re-review of anyone's righteousness. Those who were not reborn in Christ never chose to accept Jesus' payment for their sin and yield themselves to their Creator's will. Due to their taint of sin, they will be incapable of desiring to obey God (John 6:44). Just like on earth, they will think they are willing to do anything to stop the pain, but they are deceived. Their nature can no longer be changed even if their punishment were suspended, which only occurs through rebirth in Christ, which is only available by faith, not by sight—which everyone will have after they die.

    All humans are born with the sinful nature of Adam.

    Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (Romans 5:12-14, 1984 NASB)

    This passage reveals that the effects of sin happen regardless of God's judgment. This is part of the reason (along with God's just nature) that God can love everyone, but will still condemn the majority (Matthew 7:13-14) of people. It is not something He wants to do. That is why He sent Jesus to die. That is why He commanded us to go into all the world and tell people about our sinful nature from Adam and Jesus, our salvation—because God wants to save us all! (2 Corinthians 5:18, Matthew 28:19-20) We are in need of salvation from where we are already headed (John 3:18) and that literally had and has nothing to do with God or His judgment of people. That's why humans need a Savior. We don't only need God's forgiveness, we also need a rebirth to get rid of our sinful nature (John 3:3, 6-7)—which God will not do without being accepted as the Lord of a person's life and death.

    And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me. “For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it. (Luke 9:23-24, 1995 NASB)

    No one's sinful nature passed away when Jesus died. Jesus' death was the punishment that every human deserved for justice for their sins. Jesus paid the price for all, but God will not give them a rebirth in Christ against their will. Those who's spiritual standing with God is through their sinful nature are still rejecting God.

    Anyone who thinks a loving God would not condemn people has not recognized why we have a sinful nature or recognized the enormous cost to God to pay for our sins. He wants to save us because he loves us very much, but he won't force Himself on anyone. Our freedom to choose is one of the most important aspects of being made in God's image. It's up to us. We have to choose.
     
  5. Shempster

    Shempster ImJustMe Supporter

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    In this life we are blinded by our own selfish pursuits. Most of us are oblivious to the damage our sin causes to others. So in the case of a hardened criminal, they have little chance at actual reform because of this. People are blinded to a degree in this life. They can't see the forest for the trees.

    Think about the crucible metaphor. If the fire of the crucible is physical and mental pain and torture, what would the outcome be? Wouldn't almost anybody do or say whatever it takes to get out of the torture? Isn't this how evil regimes force "confessions" out of people? Would our God act like that?

    No, I think that ones own remorse for personal evil is the only way for a man to change his character.
    That is just my opinion of course.
     
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  6. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Remorse, yes, but I believe God brings us to that point. Can any of us really change for the better by the old "bootstrap" paradigm? I think not. My OPINION is that God does it all in us by forces we sense but do not quite grasp with our carnal minds.
     
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  7. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

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    Sounds like something God would say....oh, wait a minute, I think He did;

    2TI 2:25 .... God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth, 26 and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

    To Him be the glory.
     
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  8. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Greg: I suggest you read post # 8, #9, #10 & # 13: each addressing your O.P. (particularly everlasting punishment & life).
     
  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Greg: Take 2!
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Free will.

    Also without the knowledge of evil, how would humans ever know what is good?

    God does force Himself into people's lives in this life. It's called a conscience. And the conviction of the Holy Spirit. And the gospel. And He also uses relationships between people. And the evidence of creation, etc.

    Perhaps you should ask yourself that question, since you're the one who believes He's going to torture them forever.

    Love Omnipotent has all eternity to save them. Do you think anyone can reject Him an infinite number of times? That's mathematically impossible.

    If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
     
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Rather than blindly believing your 2 selected cherry picked biased opinions, why not consider some other sources. Or, better yet, look at how the ancients themselves used the word aionion. The following examples show it was often used of finite duration:

    In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

    4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

    The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

    Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

    Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

    Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

    Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

    In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

    Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

    Two Questions
    Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

    If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

    How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

    Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

    ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

    could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

    12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
     
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  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Matthew 25:41 Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers. (CLV)

    Online Parallel Study Bibles

    Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; (YLT)

    "Then will He say to those at His left, "'Begone from me, with the curse resting upon you, into the Fire of the Ages, which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels. (WEY)

    The same Greek words for "eternal fire" (Mt.25:41) are used in Jude 1:7:

    Jude 7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 7, CLV)

    Do you believe that the city of Sodom in Israel today is still burning from the fire that destroyed it? Will the burning be "eternal" or has the "eternal fire" already ended? In which case "eternal" is a deceptive translation & the fire was temporary, not "eternal".

    Do you think the city of Sodom in Israel is still burning by that "eternal fire" today? Or has it long ago been extinguished & was not "eternal" but eonian & finite? BTW, the same phrase, "eonian fire" also appears twice in Matthew (25:41; 18:8). If the eonian fire of Jude 1:7 was finite, then why can't the same in Matthew's account be finite?

    Were the bodies of the people of Sodom destroyed (killed) by that fire destroyed forever, i.e. endlessly annihilated. No, it is a temporary destruction until their resurrection. Their resurrection will reverse that destruction. IOW the resurrection will destroy that destruction. Love Omnipotent destroys and then He makes alive again what He destroyed:

    "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand." (Dt.32:39)

    Furthermore, Sodom (cf. Jude 1:7) will be restored:

    "Speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel gives us God's thoughts concerning Sodom. "As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters." And again, "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters...then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them...when thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate" (Ezek.16:48,53,55)."

    Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
    34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

    Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

    Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

    "They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

    Heb.10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
    28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

    Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

    This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

    Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

    “In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

    Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

    Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

    "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

    For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf


    ---
     
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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  14. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    The vast majority of mankind are saved in the lake of fire, having all the that exalts itself above God, burned out of them.
    The Lake of fire is the second death, and has no effect on God's elect, because they have already died.


    Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    The first death is described in this verse.

    Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


    The first death is not physical, and neither is the second death.
     
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  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This verse puts no limits on the number of people who will enter the "kingdom of heaven". It doesn't say anyone will - never - enter the "kingdom of heaven". It doesn't say anyone will never do the "will of my Father". Neither, BTW, does it define "kingdom of heaven" or say that people cannot be saved somewhere else besides the "kingdom of heaven". Bottom line: it fails, for a number of reasons, as an alleged "proof text" against universalism.

    Matthew 7:22-23
    (22) Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'
    (23) Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

    Regarding the word "never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

    "Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..."Mark 9 Benson Commentary

    Where does Matthew 7:22-23 say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve, as you roast alive in endless fires, being tormented for all eternity? I hate you so much that i wont even end your existence to mercifully put you out of your misery, but give you eternal life so i can cause you sorrow and pain without end."?

    Actually His remarks seem pretty lame & light in comparison to what He could have said, if He wanted to. "Depart from Me". Big deal! Compared to endless torments it's next to nothing.

    In that light, Mt.7:21-23 is more favorable to universalism than endless punishment.

    Mt.7:21 does not deny that all will eventually do God's will and enter the kingdom. Everyone starts out not doing God's will. Does that mean no one can enter the Kingdom of God and it will be empty forever?

    The verse places no time limits on when one can do the will of God.

    Matthew 7:23 refers to a "day", not final destiny when God will be "All in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28).

    Matthew 7 says some will not get into heaven on judgement day. It doesn't say they will never get into heaven. In fact they eventually will, as the same author wrote a few chapters earlier:

    Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
    All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    1 Cor.15:28 Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects ALL to Him, that God may be All in ALL.)

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

    Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

    1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

    1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

    Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

    Lk.12:47 That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows.

    Lk.15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness,
    and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
    8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

    1 Tim 4:10 – For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

    1 Tim.2:3 God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
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  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Irrelevant to the topic of universalism.

    Erroneous human opinion, not scripture & opposed to it.

    Human opinion, not supported with Scripture.

    Not yet. Does His blood poured out for all have an expiry date? Will it ever lose its effectiveness?

    Christ will draw all men to Himself (Jn.12:32).

    Does God's love have an expiry date? Or are you a Calvinist who thinks God doesn't love everyone? If Love Omnipotent doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
     
  18. frater_domus

    frater_domus Faith is all that matters. Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    I have read a bit of Swedenborgian theology, which, to some extend, supports a universalist view. Hell was less described as place of punishment. It is a place distant from God, because those who denied Him will not be able to bear His presence. Call it a place where you go by your own volition, because you refused to come to God. There they dwell in their own sinful desires, because it is all they know.

    Mind you, this is not directly supported by scripture, so take it with a grain of salt. The bible mainly focuses on what we gotta do on earth and only tells us potential consequences, much like you tell a child that putting a hand on the stove will hurt. We do not have a lot of concrete details other than warnings and some imagery, which might be allegorical.
     
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Destruction (Mt.7:13-14) can be & is used in the process of bringing people to life/salvation:

    1 Cor.5:4 When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

    1. Jesus says "FEW" were finding it (Mt.7:13-14)
    2. Paul says "MANY" will be saved (Rom.5:18-19)

    Both are right.

    Jesus was referring to only the people at His time in the first century, and not their final destiny. Paul was referring to final destiny when all will be saved.

    Bible versions don't say "few will EVER find it" (Mt.7:13-14). This Greek Interliner says "finding":

    Matthew 7:14 Interlinear: how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

    Young's Literal Translation
    how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

    Matthew 7:14 is in the present tense, few "finding" it, speaking of those people at that particular time, not of final destiny. Earlier in Matthew final destiny was already revealed re salvation:

    Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

    "Pay attention to the Greek verb tenses.
    “Enter (eiselthate | εἰσέλθατε | aor act imperative 2 pl) through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and easy the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter(eiserchomenoi | εἰσερχόμενοι | pres mid ptcp nom pl masc) through it. Matt 7:13"

    "How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and few are those who find (heuriskontes | εὑρίσκοντες | pres act ptcp nom pl masc) it! Matt 7:14"

    "In v.13 the word for 'enter' is the Greek word 'eiserchomenoi' which as noted is a present tense participle more accurately translated as 'entering.' Thus all this verse is saying is that there are many who are presently entering the wide gate. This verse does not refer at all to sometime in the future where people may or may not be resurrected out of the lake of fire. If it did, this verse would employ the future tense of the verb - but it doesn't. We can only say what this verse states - simply that when Jesus spoke these words, many are entering the broad gate/road."

    "Same thing with v.14. The word for 'find' is 'heuriskontes' which is a present tense participle. Thus few people are currently 'finding' the narrow gate. No reference at all to the future."

    Note the word "many", not "few":

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

    “In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

    Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

    "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

    For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All. Those will He "justify" (Isa.53:11).

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That passage doesn't address the final destiny of those who "lose" their life or soul (Greek psuché: Strong's Greek: 5590. ψυχή (psuché) -- breath, the soul)

    The word for "lose" is the Greek word apollumi. The same Greek word used of the lost sheep, coin, & prodigal son who were "lost" & later found (Luke 15).

    The king in Daniel 4 lost his mind (or soul) for 7 years before God restored it.

    Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

    Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

    Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
    and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
    and the crooked shall be made straight,
    and the rough ways made smooth;
    Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”

    Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

    But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

    Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after
    that which is lost, until he find it?
    Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

    Lk17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
     
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