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Featured Universalist Understanding?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Greg J., Oct 8, 2018.

  1. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    I have addressed every single one of your scriptures DA but you cannot see the forest because of all the trees.

    Scriptures tell us the aions come to an END, thus all your so called proof that the aions do not end is simply your refusal to acknowledge the scriptures telling us they do end.
     
  2. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That cut & paste has been answered many times before (while OTOH many of my posts you have not answered), e.g.:

    could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?


    But He did:

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

    How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum



    Who cares. Many "Jews in Israel" rejected Christ, especially the endless hell pushers/Pharisees, & were destroyed in 70 AD by Roman legions.

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

    2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    And your entire post was already dissected, piece by piece, here:

    could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?
     
  3. Shempster

    Shempster ImJustMe Supporter

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    It is likely that the Jews still held onto many old myths previously created by random pagan philosophy. That does not make them true just because they might have still believed some of it.
    The idea of an underworld being a place where the dead are tortured far predates the Israelites.
     
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  4. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    If that is true why didn't Jesus criticize the Jews about those supposedly pagan philosophies?
    Here are some of teachings of Jesus on the fate of the unrepentant.
    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    • “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

    These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence. A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.
    .....The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they undoubtedly knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
    Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

    “‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
    …..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced those beliefs.
     
  5. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    He did, He showed them their belief in ECT was incorrect by using the word aion and its adjective which means of unknown duration. If Jesus was in support of eternal torment he would have used aidios
     
  6. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You quite evidently do not even know what "cut & paste" means. It does not refer to quoting from grammars, lexicons, encyclopedias etc. as I do. "Cut & paste" usually refers to copying something written by another person giving his/her opinion about the topic. Which is what you do.
    Although Jesus taught about "eternal punishment,""hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die" etc. He never criticized the Jewish belief in hell and He never said or implied that everyone will be saved, no matter what.

    Since you have not stated or demonstrated any expertise in Greek and probably could not parse or conjugate a Greek verb if your life depended on it your unsupported opinion of what words you think Jesus should have used, in any situation, does not have any merit.

    Many Jews were destroyed but many survived. Read some real history, such as Josephus.

    How the Jews interpreted the OT scriptures and how they based their faith and practice on those scriptures are not myths. Jesus never directly criticized the Jewish belief in hell.

    I have dissected and shredded all of your arguments before as I have done in this post.
     
  7. Shempster

    Shempster ImJustMe Supporter

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    I don't think he mentioned any philosophies of theirs at all. Only that they claimed to follow the law, but were indeed wicked in their hearts.
     
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Clearly you don't know what i meant by the phrase. OTOH, I know what i meant by the phrase, which i used as an equivalent for copy and paste, as in your post which you've copied and pasted many times.

    cut and paste
    ˌkət ən ˈpāst/
    noun
    COMPUTING
    1. 1.
      a process in which text or other data is moved from one part of a document and inserted elsewhere.


    Not really:


    Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

    1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

    Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

    While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

    The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
    "And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

    Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
    "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

    Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
    "And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

    Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
    And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

    Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
    "And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."


    No doubt the Jews had varying beliefs about hell, not just one belief. Even your own post acknowledged that.


    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
    Web Online Help

    213 Questions Without Answers:
    Questions Without Answers




    Neither do you have "expertise in Greek".


    My opinon was supported by the following which you ignored & have never addressed let alone refuted:

    How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

    And by much more, e.g.:

    Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

    (19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John

    In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

    4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

    The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

    Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

    Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

    Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

    Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

    In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

    Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

    Two Questions
    Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

    If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

    How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

    Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

    ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

    could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

    12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:





    No one said otherwise.




    How do you know that non Christian Jewish interpretations of the Scriptures were not influenced by pagan & Jewish myths? You provided no evidence to support your comment. What is your level of expertise on the subject? The fact is there were Jewish myths and Scripture warns against them.

    Furthermore, Jesus said to beware of the teaching of the Pharisees, who BTW believed in endless punishment.

    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducee's,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

    Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

    Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


    There's no such thing as a unified "the Jewish belief in hell". There have been, were, are and will be many different Jewish beliefs, ideas & theories re hell. Ditto for Christianity & other religions.


    Really?
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
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  9. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I'll tell you like I told another guy. Since you have not stated or demonstrated any expertise in Greek and probably could not parse or conjugate a Greek verb if your life depended on it your unsupported opinion of what words you think Jesus should have used, in any situation, does not have any merit.
    [1]Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    [2]Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
     
  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Look what thoughts will do. Jesus not mentioning any of the philosophies of the Jewish leaders.
    Matthew 5:27-28
    (27) Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
    (28) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
    Matthew 5:31-32
    (31) It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
    (32) But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
    Matthew 5:33-34
    (33) Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
    (34) But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
    Matthew 5:38-39
    (38) Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
    (39) But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
    Matthew 5:43-44
    (43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
    (44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
    Matthew 5:27-28
    (27) Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
    (28) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
    Matthew 5:31-32
    (31) It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
    (32) But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
    Matthew 5:33-34
    (33) Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
    (34) But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
    Matthew 5:38-39
    (38) Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
    (39) But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
    Matthew 5:43-44
    (43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
    (44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
    Matthew 5:27-28, Mark 12:38-40
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I really don't care what you call cut/copy and paste. What is relevant is what is the commonly accepted meaning.
    Another out-of-context proof text which does not prove what you think it does. What did Paul mean by "in Christ?"

    1Co_15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive
    Eph 2:10
    (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    Those who are not "in Christ" are not "Christ's workmanship."
    Eph 2:13
    (13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    Those not "in Christ" are still far off.
    Php 1:1
    (1) Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
    Those not "in Christ" are not with the bishops and deacons.
    1Th 2:14
    (14) For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
    Those not "in Christ" are not followers of the church of God.
    Some will be willfully subject to the Son, others, i.e. enemies will be forcefully subjected to the Son and will be His footstool.
    Wrong as always. Yet another out-of-context proof text which I have addressed before. Of course it is NOT God's will to afflict and grieve the sons of men, but because of men's rebellion and disobedience His justice demands punishment.

    John Gill commentary on the whole Bible.
    Lamentations 3:31
    For the Lord will not cast off for ever. Which is not to be understood of all his creatures; for there are some he does cast off for ever, as the angels that sinned; reprobate men, profligate and abandoned sinners, that live and die impenitent; and unbelievers, carnal professors, and apostates; but not his own special and peculiar people, the people whom he has foreknown and loved with an everlasting love, his spiritual Israel; or, as the Targum supplies it, "his servants"; see Psa_94:14;

    Psa 94:14 For the Lord will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance;
    he may seem for a while to reject them, but not in reality and for ever; as when he hides his face from them, lays his afflicting hand on them, or suffers then, to be afflicted by others, and defers his help, and does not immediately appear to their deliverance and salvation; but in reality he never rejects them from being his people, his servants, and his sons; they have always a place in his heart, and are ever under his eye and care; they continue in his covenant, and abide in his family; and though they may be cast down in their souls, and cast out by men, yet are not cast off by God, neither in youth nor old age, in time or eternity; his love is unchangeable; his purposes firm and unalterable; his counsel, covenant, oath, and promise, immutable; and they are his jewels, his portion, and inheritance; and this is a ground and reason of bearing patiently all afflictions, injuries, and reproaches; for though men cast off, God will not.
    When read in-context all the verses harmonize perfectly, as I have shown above.
    Irrelevant, deceptive response. I anticipated this argument and responded to it in my post. That the Jews had different beliefs is irrelevant to my post, it does not refute or disprove anything I said.

    I have more expertise than you do and I don't post my unsupported opinion as you do. I quote from grammars. lexicons ECF etc.
    I don't do links to random websites which neither state nor demonstrate the requisite expertise. Just because someone said something on his blog does not make it true.

    Misrepresented out-of-context, second hand copy/paste which I have refuted more than once before. Even if true the unsupported opinion of one ECF does not a establish a grammar rule. As I have shown before the ONLY thing said to be "after eternal life" is the "fountain" which leaps into "eternal life" and the only thing said to be beyond "eternal life" is God who, alone, is greater than life. This says nothing about any "after eternal life." for believers.
    Origen also quotes this without stating that it is incorrect..

    (6o) And he has explained the statement, But “he shall not thirst forever:” as follows with these very words: for the life which comes from the well is eternal and never perishes, as indeed, does the first life which comes from the well,; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it. P. 81
    Commentary on the Gospel According to John cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false
    Eternal life “never perishes,””remains.””is not taken away,””[is not] consumed,””[does not] perish.”
     
  12. Shempster

    Shempster ImJustMe Supporter

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    Great post.
    But those words were not directed at the Pharisees.They were on no level to comprehend such deep truth.
    Their religion had blinded them.
     
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Paul didn't say "all in Christ shall be made alive". He said "in Christ shall all be made alive". Who are the "all" of the parallel statement in the first half of the parallel:

    1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

    How many human beings does the "all" in "in Adam all die" refer to? All mankind who have died, with the exception of one or two men?



    Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

    1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

    Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

    While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

    The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
    "And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

    Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
    "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

    Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
    "And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

    Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
    And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

    Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
    "And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."



    I posted:

    1 Cor.15:28 Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects ALL to Him, that God may be All in ALL.)

    DA replied:



    God isn't "in" those He forcefully subjects.

    1 Cor.15:28 Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects ALL to Him, that God may be All in ALL.)

    I posted:

    And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

    DA replied:


    This translation refutes everlasting punishment:

    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

    The sons of men are not cast off forever. That & Mt.25:46 KJV cannot both be true. They're contradictory.

    I posted:

    No doubt the Jews had varying beliefs about hell, not just one belief. Even your own post acknowledged that.

    False. You had stated:

    No doubt the Jews had varying beliefs about hell, not just one belief. Even your own post acknowledged that.

    There's no such thing as a unified "the Jewish belief in hell". There have been, are and will be many different Jewish beliefs, ideas & theories re hell. Ditto for Christianity & other religions. Including ideas re a temporary hell & hell as a place where sinners get saved, etc. Even your own post on Jewish beliefs speaks of hell being temporary & people coming out of hell.


    You have - no - "expertise" in Greek or Hebrew. None. You're no expert. Not a scholar. As to your proficiency in Greek, remember this:

    Here is a response to your statement from a guy who knows some Greek:

    "This is simply false, as ANYONE who has even a smattering of Greek knows. It is simply false that βασιλει would need to be in the genitive case to be correctly translated as "to the king of the ages." No, "των αιωνιον" must be in the genitive to mean "of the ages" and it is."


    Your amateur aion hyperbole theory is opposed by scholars, lexicons, experts, church fathers, commentaries etc. As i have shown by posting many such sources. You've failed to provide even one source in the past several thousand years that supports you.


    Except when you do & have. And the links provided included several forum posts which have been posted to you before & never ansered let alone refuted, including many references to scholars & their quotes.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  14. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I posted:

    "Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

    (19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen"

    Der Alter answered:

    Actually the quote doesn't limit only the Father to being "beyond aionion life". Notice the word "also" here: "And after eternal life, perhaps it will ALSO leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life."

    Actually the fountain leaps into aionion(eonian) life. And "after" this "eonian life" (showing eonian life is finite). The fountain/well of life is in the believers:

    John 7:38-39
    "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

    John 4:14
    but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to aionion LIFE."

    Actually Origen speaking of "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life", is supported also by: Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika

    Likewise Origen believed the phrase "eons of the eons", which is equivalent to aionion in the Scriptures (compare Mt.25:41 to Rev.20:10), is finite:

    "Origen, the greatest exegete of the early Church, was well aware of the polysemy of aión and its adjectival forms. In Hom. in Ex. 6.13 he writes: “Whenever Scripture says, ‘from aeon to aeon,’ the reference is to an interval of time, and it is clear that it will have an end. And if Scripture says, ‘in another aeon,’ what is indicated is clearly a longer time, and yet an end is still fixed. And when the ‘aeons of the aeons’ are mentioned, a certain limit is again posited, perhaps unknown to us, but surely established by God” (quoted in Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p. 161)." Sometimes Eternity Ain’t Forever: Aiónios and the Universalist Hope

    Most of his writings are lost to antiquity. Many were destroyed by anti-universalists in the past 1800+ years since he began writing.


    Those statements also in harmony with Origen's view of an "after aionios life". The words of Heracleon do not speak of aionios life, but of life that is (1) aionios and (2) never perishes. If aionios meant eternal, to add "and never perishes" would be redundant.
     
  15. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    Lol it looks like with all the learning you say you have it is you who lacks in expertise in Greek. The scriptures say the aion come to an end, you just keep refusing to believe those scriptures that say so just as you keep refusing to believe Jesus Christ is the saviour of all men just as the scriptures proclaim.

    Funny how so many believe their doctrine over what scripture plainly says.
     
  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Matt 25 was spoken to the multitude but I'm sure that pharisees were there or had their spies there and word got back to them.
     
  17. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <P3>Lol it looks like with all the learning you say you have it is you who lacks in expertise in Greek. The scriptures say the aion come to an end, you just keep refusing to believe those scriptures that say so just as you keep refusing to believe Jesus Christ is the saviour of all men just as the scriptures proclaim.
    Funny how so many believe their doctrine over what scripture plainly says.<end>
    Yes it is funny, rather sad, how so many believe in UR over what scripture plainly says and they can only see the few out-of-context proof texts which when all other scripture is ignored seems to support their false assumptions/presuppositions.
    Matthew 16:26
    (26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, [κόσμος/kosmos] and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

    John 12:19
    (19) The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world [κόσμος/kosmos] is gone after him.

    John 14:17
    (17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world [κόσμος/kosmos] cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    Romans 1:8
    (8) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.[κόσμος/kosmos]

    1 John 5:19
    (19) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world [κόσμος/kosmos] lieth in wickedness.

    Luke 2:1
    (1) And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world [ οἰκουμένη/oikoumené] should be taxed

    Can a person literally gain the "whole world?"
    Did the "whole world" literally follow Jesus?
    Can the entire world not receive the spirit of truth?
    Can the "whole world" literally not receive Jesus?
    Was the faith of the Roman Christians literally spoken of throughout the "whole world?"
    Did Caesar literally tax the entire world?
    Did the entire world lie in wickedness?
    .....There is a word which describes how "world" is used in all these verses.
    .....Now let us use false UR reasoning on these verses. "Whole world" cannot ever mean the entire planet earth because in these verses it does not, cannot refer to the entire planet earth. And like UR-ites we ignore any verses which contradict this presupposition.


     
  18. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    All this empty copy/pasted verbosity holding up Origen as the end all, be all authority on the word "aionios" but when he says something which blows the UR boat completely out of the water, with zero knowledge of Greek, you try to blow it off. There is no difference between "eternal life" and "life that is eternal." Your objection "If aionios meant eternal, to add "and never perishes" would be redundant" is absurd.
    .....First you have zero expertise to make the argument. Let's apply this ridiculous argument to the other adjectives Origen quotes "never perishes,""remains,"'not taken away," and "does not perish" If "never perishes" meant "never perishes" to add "remains" and "not taken away" would be redundant. If "remains" meant "remains" to add "never perishes" and "not taken away" would be redundant. Etc.
    .....Paul e.g. was well known for similar cumulative expressions.

    Vincent Word Studies 1 Corinthians 4:17
    Rev., more and more exceedingly an eternal weight, etc. An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word is twice repeated. Lit., exceedingly unto excess. The use of such cumulative expressions is common with Paul. See, for example, Phi_1:23, lit., much more better; Rom_8:37, abundantly the conquerors; Eph_3:20, exceeding abundantly, etc. Note how the words are offset: for a moment, eternal; light, weight; affliction, glory.


     
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why didn't you quote BDAG as you often do, or any scholars to support you? Do you only post BDAG when it supports your opinions? Do you believe "world" is less than all human beings in John 1:29; 3:17; 4:42, & other universalist passages? Here is what
    BDAG says re "world" & some other words related to universalism passages:

    BDAG says re Col.1:20:

    "...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

    Co.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
    All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    This states the purpose of Love Omnipotent's - divine will - in sending His Son:

    For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

    The IVA ("that") is used in Jn.3:17 above. BDAG says “In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the *divine will*…” ἵνα — с греческого на все языки

    The IVA also occurs in Phil.2:9-11:

    Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)

    What is the "world" in Jn.1:29; 3:17, 4:42 according to BDAG? According to BDAG by "world" in such verses is meant "humanity in general". Jesus Himself would be the only exception:

    The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Jn.1:29)
    They said to the woman, "We now believe not only because of your words; we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man truly is the Savior of the world. (Jn.4:42)
    For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

    And BDAG again, re Rom.5:18, is quoted in this commentary:

    "Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

    "Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

    108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

    "The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
    "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

    "It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

    (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

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  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    BDAG, Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich lexicon of NT Greek, does not define verses it defines words which word does this supposedly refer to so that one might read the entire entry in-context. Will address more points at another time.
     
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