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Featured Universalist Understanding?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Greg J., Oct 8, 2018.

  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    2 Tim.4:3 For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own DESIRES. 4 So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to MYTHS.

    Myths? There are various endless punishment "myths", e.g. those believed by most Muslims, those believed by some Jews, various types believed in by various Christian denominations. Some even think aborted babies will be burning forever.

    And re "to suit their own desires". Desires such as explained here?:

    "But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

    Their - pathologically - "itching ears" do "gather around them a great number of teachers to say what" they "want to hear" to "suit their own (patholigical) desires". Compare, for example, the KKK, the Pharisees, & the like, of which there are many millions.

    So your argument is if there is no eternal torture for most human beings, then there's no point to "the Bible, free will, and even life"?

    And unless billions are fried alive forever for the sins of a relatively momentary life, there is "no such thing as justice"?

    Are "victims of extreme injustice" usually bitter & unforgiving & often wish endless hell upon those who hurt them?

    "But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts."

    Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart
     
  2. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    We are the clay. He (God) is the Potter.

    We experience choice and free will, but God knows the End from the Beginning. I believe the endless debate between those advocating Free Will and those insisting on the Sovereign Will of God can be resolved by recognizing that it's a matter of point-of-view.

    Foundational truths are usually easy to express.
     
  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Praise & glory to God for that! Our actions have very serious consequences in accord with the true God Who is Just & a Savior, not a sadist for eternity. His punishment are always corrective, not pointless endless hopeless tortures.

    If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
     
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  4. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    First Corinthians 10:23

    All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. -KJV
     
  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The book of Hebrews was written to Hebrews (Jewish folks) who were being warned about leaving Christ & His sacrifice & going back to Judaism with its sacrificial system. In Judaism there did "no longer remain a sacrifice for sins" (v.26), since Christ's sacrifice had replaced those sacrifices. The sinners of v.26 needed to come back to Christ & His sacrifice for forgiveness & cleansing away of their sins by His blood.

    Otherwise they were on a path to judgement & fire that "will consume the adversaries". Being thrown in the lake of fire might "consume" or kill a mortal body. The remaining conscious soul there would still be subject to "torments" as per Rev.14:9-11; 20:10.


    Who, or what, are the "adversaries"? The fallen nature of man? Sin? "Consume" what? The body? The soul? The sin, or fallen nature, or "old man" that must die before one becomes a "new creature" (or, "new creation") in Christ Jesus (2 Cor.5:17)?

    That sounds a lot like 1 Corinthians 3:13-17:

    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's
    work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    Compare v.17 to

    1 Cor.5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    The context of Hebrews 10:26-27 reveals what the punishment is in those verses.

    Hebrews speaks of those who reject Christ as deserving a "sorer" punishment than death by Moses' law, i.e. stoning:

    10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated out of existence, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine who abandons forever the beings He created in His image & likeness so easily.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

    Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

    Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

    Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
    7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put
    under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by
    the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render
    powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

    15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism


    "Adam Clarke Commentary

    "We are not cowards who slink away, and notwithstanding meet destruction; but we are faithful, and have our souls saved alive. The words περιποιησις ψυχης signify the preservation of the life. See the note, Ephesians 1:14. He intimates that, notwithstanding the persecution was hot, yet they should escape with their lives.

    "It is very remarkable, and I have more than once called the reader's attention to it, that not one Christian life was lost in the siege and destruction of Jerusalem. Every Jew perished, or was taken captive; all those who had apostatized, and slunk away from Christianity, perished with them: all the genuine Christians escaped with their lives. This very important information, which casts light on many passages in the New Testament, and manifests the grace and providence of God in a very conspicuous way, is given both by Eusebius and Epiphanius. I shall adduce their words: "When the whole congregation of the Church in Jerusalem, according to an oracle given by revelation to the approved persons among them before the war, κατα τινα χρησμον τοις αυτοθι δοκιμοις δι 'αποκαλυψεως δοθεντα προ του πολεμου, μεταναστηναι της πολεως, και τινα της περαιας πολιν οικειν κεκελευσμενου, Πελλαν αυτην ονομαζουσιν, were commanded to depart from the city, and inhabit a certain city which they call Pella, beyond Jordan, to which, when all those who believed in Christ had removed from Jerusalem, and when the saints had totally abandoned the royal city which is the metropolis of the Jews; then the Divine vengeance seized them who had dealt so wickedly with Christ and his apostles, and utterly destroyed that wicked and abominable generation." Euseb. Hist. Eccles, l. iii. c. v. vol. i. p. 93. Edit. a Reading.
    St. Epiphanius, in Haeres. Nazaren, c. 7, says: "The Christians who dwelt in Jerusalem, being forewarned by Christ of the approaching siege, removed to Pella."
    The same, in his book De Ponderibus et Mensuris, says: "The disciples of Christ being warned by an angel, removed to Pella; and afterwards, when Adrian rebuilt Jerusalem, and called it after his own name, Aelia Colonia, they returned thither." As those places in Epiphanius are of considerable importance, I shall subjoin the original: Εκειθεν γαρ ἡ αρχη γεγονε μετα την απο των Ἱεροσολυμων μεταστασιν, παντων των μαθητων των εν Πελλῃ ῳκηκοτων, Χριστου φησαντος καταλειψαι τα Ἱεροσολυμα, και αναχωρησαι, επειδη ημελλε πασχειν πολιορκιαν . Epiph. adver. Haeres., l. i. c. 7, vol. i. p. 123. Edit. Par. 1622. The other place is as follows: Ἡνικα γαρ εμελλεν ἡ πολις ἁλισκεσθαι ὑπο των Ῥωμαιων, προεχρηματισθησαν ὑπο Αγγελου παντες οἱ μαθηται μεταστηναι απο της πολεως, μελλουσης αρδην απολλυσθαι. Οἱ τινες και μετανασται γενομενοι ῳκησαν εν Πελλῃ - περαν του Ιορδανου, ἡ τις εκ Δεκαπολεως λεγεται ειναι . Ibid. De Pon. et Mens., vol. ii. p. 171.

    "These are remarkable testimonies, and should be carefully preserved. Pella, it appears, was a city of Coelesyria, beyond Jordan, in the district of Decapolis. Thus it is evident that these Christians held fast their faith, preserved their shields, and continued to believe to the saving of their lives as well as to the saving of their souls. As the apostle gives several hints of the approaching destruction of Jerusalem, it is likely that this is the true sense in which the words above are to be understood."

    Hebrews 10:39 - But we are not... - Verse-by-Verse Commentary


    If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
     
  6. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


    Eternal fire is prepared for the Devil and his angels, but also for the unbelievers. Knowing who the Devil and his angels are, as well as who the unbelievers are, will help you understand what eternal fire or "everlasting punishment" is.

    In this parable, the sheep and the goats are Christians. The separating of them has to occur, because the goats think that they are the sheep.
    The goats in the parable, think that they have been feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving drink to the thirsty, etc, but they are shocked to find out, that they have not been doing that at all. Now, most people interpret this as them being in denial, but that is not what it says. They honestly do think that they have been doing these things.

    This parable, like everything else that Christ taught, is made up of symbols. Drink is not physical drink. Food is not physical food, etc. He is referring to spiritual food and drink here.


    Joh 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
    Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
    Joh 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
    Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.


    Christ is the food and the drink that his sheep give to those in need, whereas, the goats (Christ's counterfeit sheep) give out counterfeit food and drink.


    2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
    2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.


    There is a true gospel and there is a counterfeit gospel, just like there is genuine gold and there is counterfeit gold. The above parable is just another way of saying "many are called, but few are chosen"
    Those who have the counterfeit gospel, and this other Jesus, are going to have their false doctrines burned out of them, but this is not something that is going to take all of eternity.


    1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
    1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
    1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    The Devil's angels are the minsters of light. Angel just means "messenger" and he is not going to punish them for eternity, just because they thought they were sheep. A goat doesn't choose to be a goat, anymore than a sheep chooses to be a sheep. Such thinking is barbaric and backward.
     
  7. Natsumi Lam

    Natsumi Lam Preparer of the Bride Supporter

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    I guess this is an interesting way to look at it.
     
  8. Natsumi Lam

    Natsumi Lam Preparer of the Bride Supporter

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    So works get you more kuddos in the afterlife?
     
  9. Natsumi Lam

    Natsumi Lam Preparer of the Bride Supporter

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    Thank you guys for taking the time to post this info.
     
  10. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    Go and read the story of Joseph and his brothers. This is what happens to unbelievers in the Lake of fire.
     
  11. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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  12. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <Clem>2 Tim.4:3 For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own DESIRES. 4 So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to MYTHS...
    "But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart
    ...
    "But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts."

    Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart<end>
    I went to your link and I didn't see a single quote from Origen or any other credible source, nothing but Hart's opinion. Is this Hart guy a pope who must be obeyed?
     
  13. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    That is the usual belief. While most attention is directed at the ever popular topic--Are we saved by Faith Alone or Faith and Works both?--there is also the question of whether there is any difference to be expected among the various people who reach heaven.

    Some people never even think of it, but it is a separate issue, and the belief (which has Biblical support) is that those who are saved will be rewarded according to their works (so that wont be equal for everyone who is saved).

    The works won't save you or contribute to it, but they will be rewarded. You remember that Jesus said there are many mansions in his Father's house, so presumably some are grander than others.
     
  14. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <mm>
    This parable, like everything else that Christ taught, is made up of symbols. Drink is not physical drink. Food is not physical food, etc. He is referring to spiritual food and drink here.<end>
    Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to simply by claiming something is SPAM-Fig, symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative anything but literal.
    <mm>
    There is a true gospel and there is a counterfeit gospel, just like there is genuine gold and there is counterfeit gold. The above parable is just another way of saying "many are called, but few are chosen"
    Those who have the counterfeit gospel, and this other Jesus, are going to have their false doctrines burned out of them, but this is not something that is going to take all of eternity.

    1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
    1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
    1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire....<end>
    Yes there is a real gospel and there is a counterfeit gospel.
    .....Do you think this passage is saying that everybody is going to be saved? Who is Paul talking to and about in this passage? "laborers together with God,""God's husbandry,""God's building" vs. 9, not all mankind. "Every/any man who builds on the foundation of Christ that Paul laid" vs. 10, 11, 12, not all mankind. Every man's work vs. 13 is the same every man in vss. 10, 11, 12, not all mankind. Any man's work vs. 15 is the same any/every man in vss. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, not the entire world. Vs. 15 does not say that the work of all mankind is burned it only the work of any/every man vss. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, and it is the work not the man that is burned.
    .....Does this passage say that all mankind will be saved?

    1 Corinthians 3:16-17
    (16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    (17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
    This passage does not say all mankind will be saved. It says that anyone who destroys the temple of God will be destroyed.

     
  15. Natsumi Lam

    Natsumi Lam Preparer of the Bride Supporter

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    I dont care if my mansion is a bathtub as long as im close to Jesus.
     
  16. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    A proper bathtub needs a home to house it. God is most generous.
     
  17. Natsumi Lam

    Natsumi Lam Preparer of the Bride Supporter

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    Im good ill be floating on holy water lol
     
  18. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    I don't want to rain on you parades, but the Father's house, is his Church.
     
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Verse 17 refers to the lost sinner:

    1 Cor.3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    Verse 11 refers to all mankind, including the lost sinner:

    1 Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no one lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

    Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context of v.15, namely v.17, both refer to lost sinners. That is the context in which verse 15 is to be interpreted as to who it should refer to:

    1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    It is the sins of "wood, hay & stubble" that are to be burned away:

    1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

    Whereas silver represents the redemption of Christ & those of silver are those who have faith in it, wood, hay & stubble have no silver in them, hence such have no faith.

    The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

    Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

    "They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

    Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
    34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

    Compare the torment of Mt.18:34 with torment in LOF passages in Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10.

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Nonsense! Typical UR twisting of scripture. Who is 1 Cor addressed to? ch. 1 vs. 2 "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus,"

    Nonsense! The lost world is not building on the foundation of Christ!

    Total rubbish Paul does not say anything which would indicate that the subject changed from the "saved in the church at Corinth" to "lost sinners."
    Placing vs. 15 before vss. 12-14 does not change the subject. The subject of vs. 15, "any man" is the same "any/every man" as in vss. 10-15 those who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ.
    <Clem>1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    It is the sins of "wood, hay & stubble" that are to be burned away:
    1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    <end>
    "This foundation" vs. 12 is "Jesus Christ," vs. 10. Sinners are not building anything, of any material, on the foundation of Jesus Christ! "Every man's work" vs. 13 is what was built on the foundation of Jesus Christ, vs. 10, not all the "work" of sinners. Now let us read vss. 16-17.
    1 Corinthians 3:16-17
    (16) Know ye not that ye [plural] are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    (17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
    The subject of this chapter is laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ. That is who vss. 16-17 are addressed to. Paul said you plural, not "they". Unless you can show some grammatical reason to believe that the subject changed back and forth in this passage.
    .....I omitted the rest of your post. I will not respond to copy/pastes from anonymous UR-ites giving their opinions.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
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