My heart is so hardened

[Invalidusername]

Then don’t tell people they can never lose their salvation.

I never once said that... ? I'm not an OSAS guy....

 

[discipler7]

For their involuntary/unintentional and inherited/inborn Adam's Original Sin, God will be sending all fallen Man to hell when they die = they need to believe in Jesus Christ to save them from hell = believers will die, be resurrected/raptured, ... and inherit the kingdom of heaven.(ROMANS.5:12)

Untrue. ...

Judgement comes based on the sins we actually did.

MATTHEW.5:27-30 = Adultery in the Heart
27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

According to Jesus Christ, the mere fact that fallen Man have immoral lust in their hearts has brought the judgment of hell upon them, even though they did not go further to commit adultery or fornication or sodomy or incest or other sexually-immoral acts/deeds. It is not the act of adultery that brought the judgment of hell, even though the sin of adultery would bring the earthly curses of God upon the adulterer.
....... Evil/satanic/sinful thoughts that often involuntarily arise in fallen Man's hearts have their source in Adam's Original Sin.(ROMANS.5:12, MARK.7:21, JOHN.8:44, MATTHEW.16:23 & 23:27, 1JOHN.3:8)

Lust --> Adultery and fornication.
Hate --> Murder.
Greed --> Stealing or cheating

The Jews and Pharisees still falsely believed that they were going to heaven(= saved from hell when they die) by just doing the works of keeping the Law, eg did not commit murder, adultery, stealing, etc. Hence, with false confidence, they rejected Jesus as the Christ/Messiah/Saviour. Jesus then told them that if they reject Him but still wanted to be saved, they would have to pluck out their eyes and chop off their limbs, turn the other cheek, walk the extra mile, lend to all who ask and love their enemy because their hearts need to be without any evil/sinful thoughts of immoral lust, hate, anger, greed, selfishness, jealousy, pride, fear/worry, doubt, etc. Otherwise, they need Jesus Christ.

 

[drich0150]

I've already prayed for that and I suggest you rethink on that interpretation. If you call me a retard at least type in coherent English.

I would do anything for genuine repentance and hating my sin. Repentance is only possible if the Spirit will grant me it and so far I haven't been able to.

I ASKED if you were retarded because one you self diagnosed

and two your own diagnosis does not fit the parameters laid out by the bible verses YOU yourself quoted. meaning once you were showed the verses your quoted as your perceived problem were dismissed, you attacked the differential diagnosis and held on to the one that does not follow your situation

Either 1 you have a learning disability, which retarded is/was (to just a few years ago) the correct technical term to describe what is now call mentally disabled. I say that because your recollection or contextual recall of the passage you quote does not accurately describe what is on page. So either you do not understand what is on page or... you do, and are pressing your own diagnosis despite what the writer of hebrews said. If you are then it is not an intellectual decision you are making, because the evidence demands you change your diagnosis, that is unless you have a fault in reasoning. which again begs the question of a learning disability.

Because clearly the hebrew writer says once a man who has known the holy Spirit has strayed, there is nothing anyone else can offer to bring him back... Meaning there is no third party way of talking someone back home... Now in your op you said you found yourself in sin, you returned on your own, you repented but feel like something died, and you have no sense of the Holy Spirit.
You came home on your own, which means no third party is responsible for bring you here, which means heb 6 DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU! You are already past what Hebrews 6 discusses at length.

However The passages I provided to you describe this very thing, not to mention other people telling you the prodigal son returned on his own, and was welcomed.

Yet you presist in making what is said in hebrew 6 the new unforgivable sin... which again begs the question why... it is a mental incapacity problem/you do not have the wherewithal to understand the situation, or you are being driven or lead by emotion. if it is a feeling that is driving you then know it is the devil lying to you. even though you repented your heart is still steeped in sin.. which brings us back to what Paul said in romans 7 and 8

No shame in a learning disability so long as you do not let it define you. I was branded retarded all my life, I learned it is just a word mean people use to try and keep other people down. Well later I found out I wasn't retarded just learned differently. once I figured out how I learned I taught myself, which is why spelling and grammar is still pretty bad. Still yet challenging you or your mental well being tells me something about you as well. it tells me if you are going through the motions or if you are looking for an excuse/way out of christianity. If you are looking for a way out I'd rather it be me/some name on a message board than you put this guilt trip on a parent or loved one.

I worked with alot of atheists/new christian converts to atheist for a very long time and they usally start like you are. they self diagnosis some paradoxical situation where they see no way out of, decide if God is there he would XYZ and ultimately God does not XYZ to save them and then the convert looks for a way out. now a christian calling you retarded is gold. If you want out this is your chance. just know you chose deep down this out, and also know there is always a way back. Some of us are meant to spend time with the pigs. I spent almost the first 1/2 of my life. because I needed to know without a doubt what the other side was about. some of us are destined to do this no matter what and yes most will not return. Just know you can even if this go round the holy spirit was not there with the warm and fuzzies. (which is child stuff anyway) when we grow in the spirit we must put away childish things/our relationship must grow beyond 'feeling' and full fill our requirement for faith. Faith meaning we do by God even if we have no way of knowing he was there. Romans 7 is the beginning to the understanding of this spiritual maturity, if you are looking for direction.

 

[Invalidusername]

I ASKED if you were retarded because one you self diagnosed

and two your own diagnosis does not fit the parameters laid out by the bible verses YOU yourself quoted. meaning once you were showed the verses your quoted as your perceived problem were dismissed, you attacked the differential diagnosis and held on to the one that does not follow your situation

Either 1 you have a learning disability, which retarded is/was (to just a few years ago) the correct technical term to describe what is now call mentally disabled. I say that because your recollection or contextual recall of the passage you quote does not accurately describe what is on page. So either you do not understand what is on page or... you do, and are pressing your own diagnosis despite what the writer of hebrews said. If you are then it is not an intellectual decision you are making, because the evidence demands you change your diagnosis, that is unless you have a fault in reasoning. which again begs the question of a learning disability.

Because clearly the hebrew writer says once a man who has known the holy Spirit has strayed, there is nothing anyone else can offer to bring him back... Meaning there is no third party way of talking someone back home... Now in your op you said you found yourself in sin, you returned on your own, you repented but feel like something died, and you have no sense of the Holy Spirit.
You came home on your own, which means no third party is responsible for bring you here, which means heb 6 DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU! You are already past what Hebrews 6 discusses at length.

However The passages I provided to you describe this very thing, not to mention other people telling you the prodigal son returned on his own, and was welcomed.

Yet you presist in making what is said in hebrew 6 the new unforgivable sin... which again begs the question why... it is a mental incapacity problem/you do not have the wherewithal to understand the situation, or you are being driven or lead by emotion. if it is a feeling that is driving you then know it is the devil lying to you. even though you repented your heart is still steeped in sin.. which brings us back to what Paul said in romans 7 and 8

No shame in a learning disability so long as you do not let it define you. I was branded retarded all my life, I learned it is just a word mean people use to try and keep other people down. Well later I found out I wasn't retarded just learned differently. once I figured out how I learned I taught myself, which is why spelling and grammar is still pretty bad. Still yet challenging you or your mental well being tells me something about you as well. it tells me if you are going through the motions or if you are looking for an excuse/way out of christianity. If you are looking for a way out I'd rather it be me/some name on a message board than you put this guilt trip on a parent or loved one.

I worked with alot of atheists/new christian converts to atheist for a very long time and they usally start like you are. they self diagnosis some paradoxical situation where they see no way out of, decide if God is there he would XYZ and ultimately God does not XYZ to save them and then the convert looks for a way out. now a christian calling you retarded is gold. If you want out this is your chance. just know you chose deep down this out, and also know there is always a way back. Some of us are meant to spend time with the pigs. I spent almost the first 1/2 of my life. because I needed to know without a doubt what the other side was about. some of us are destined to do this no matter what and yes most will not return. Just know you can even if this go round the holy spirit was not there with the warm and fuzzies. (which is child stuff anyway) when we grow in the spirit we must put away childish things/our relationship must grow beyond 'feeling' and full fill our requirement for faith. Faith meaning we do by God even if we have no way of knowing he was there. Romans 7 is the beginning to the understanding of this spiritual maturity, if you are looking for direction.

I can assure you I don't have a learning disability. Trust me I am looking for an excuse to be IN Christianity, not out.

The problem isn't feelings. The problem is the absence of His presence. He is just simply not there on either emotional or intellectual basis. Sorry but your interpretation of Hebrews 6 is just not correct. It says it's impossible to RENEW them to repentance. What does renew mean? It means regeneration. Then it goes on to say WHY it's impossible to RENEW them and it's because they have re-crucified Christ to themselves again. Why is this unforgivable? Because Christ would have to come down a 2nd time and die again which is out of order.

 

[aiki]

I fell into a long season of willful sins and when I realized what I was doing I tried to repent of it.

This doesn't make sense. If you were sinning willfully, then you knew what you were doing. What do you mean, then, that you "realized what I was doing"? You knew all along what you were doing.

I was able to physically repent of my sins in the manner of simply not doing them anymore. I was able to quit my addictions and etc. but my soul still has a void in the inside.

Why did you repent of your sins? If it wasn't in obedience to the First and Great Commandment (Matthew 22:36-38), you might as well have not bothered. (See 1 Corinthians 13:1-3) When you live God's way because you love Him, your soul won't have any "void."

I think I even remember a time when I sensed the Holy Spirit left me.

The Holy Spirit doesn't leave those he has spiritually regenerated and made new creatures in Christ. Now, you may have broken your fellowship with God which will make Him feel at a distance from you, but your relationship to God is unbreakable.

Hebrews 13:5
5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

Romans 8:38-39
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

I keep praying and praying and interceding but God does not answer. I search for him diligently but he will not be found by me.

God is omnipresent; He is everywhere always; there is no place you can go where He is not (Psalms 139:7-10). In a sense, then, you are never truly lost. God always know exactly where you are.

What sort of an answer are you looking for from God? Do you not trust the promise of His word that if you confess your sins He is faithful and just to forgive your sins and cleanse you from all unrighteousness? (1 John 1:9)

When I quit all of my sins it just left a void in my heart. Since I have nothing to replace my sin since God left me, I can't enjoy my victory over sin.

??? Sorry, this doesn't make a lot of sense. If you were truly born-again, God has not left you. And if you quit your sin because you love God and want therefore to obey Him, why wouldn't doing so bring joy and peace to your heart instead of just a void? It should. Getting right with the God we love always has this effect. Let me ask, then: Do you love God?

I think I have done Hebrews 6 where I cannot ever repent truly from the inside out again.

Hebrews 6:4-6 isn't speaking of a genuinely born-again person. It is describing what Jesus called a "tare" - a person who shares in the life of the Church, who knows the Gospel and gives intellectual assent to it, who may even partner with the Spirit in its work in and through the Church, but who is not actually born again. Is this you? It would explain why you went off into a life of willful sin.

There is a sin unto death and you should listen to the Bible warning about it.

All sin produces death. Read Romans 6:23. But we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous. He makes intercession for us before God's throne and his blood shed at Calvary cleanses us from all sin. Whatever our sin, we need only follow the commands of 1 John 1:9 and Matthew 22:37 to be restored to full fellowship with God.

Almost everyone else I see in the same predicament as me(truly born again and fell away) are in the same state as me feeling spiritually dead.

Yeah, I think it is that you have yet to come into a real, loving relationship with God through Christ. All that you have written in your OP indicates a "tare," not one who is "wheat."

I think I am a true born again believer as described in Hebrews 6 and I truly fell away. I don't even feel fear anymore. Just consuming apathy. The second death is here and now.

Well, no one can stop you from telling yourself lies. If you are determined to believe them, so be it. But lies they are, nonetheless.

 

[drich0150]

I can assure you I don't have a learning disability. Trust me I am looking for an excuse to be IN Christianity, not out.

The problem isn't feelings. The problem is the absence of His presence. He is just simply not there on either emotional or intellectual basis. Sorry but your interpretation of Hebrews 6 is just not correct. It says it's impossible to RENEW them to repentance. What does renew mean? It means regeneration. Then it goes on to say WHY it's impossible to RENEW them and it's because they have re-crucified Christ to themselves again. Why is this unforgivable? Because Christ would have to come down a 2nd time and die again which is out of order.

You reading is out of context.

You are adding first person singular to a passage that is speaking about someone else. the passages says If Frank believes and is baptised/the whole 9 yards has been blessed with the spirit ect, and he leaves.. There is nothing Bill can do to bring Him back. that is what 4 and 5 are saying... why? verse 6 Pride is what he is describing, it would be like shaming God/themselves all over again.

This is the SAME SHAME THE PRODIGAL SON underwent when he said to himself that maybe he could go back and be a slave to his father as the slaves ate and where treated better than what he was living!

So how did the Father react in that story? did He treat the lost son as a slave? But the lost son humbled himself before his father and wanting returned as a slave.

What you do not seem to understand is the balance between the prodigal son and the message of heb 6.

That is no third person could have gone to the son and convinced him to return, even if the son eating pig slop. It would kill him in the same way the hebrew writer explains..the son could not serve his father as a slave, if he were once a son, his pride would not allow him to return... However if the son was humbled enough on his own by the living conditions and pig slop making a change in his own heart, it does not say the son would not be welcomed home. in fact that is what happened. The son was FULLY Restored.

Now apart from that, what I said according to romans 7 you are not fully returned. If you want to fully return read the passage in romans and learn to accept and manage your sin... if not then at least you have direction.

 

[Invalidusername]

This doesn't make sense. If you were sinning willfully, then you knew what you were doing. What do you mean, then, that you "realized what I was doing"? You knew all along what you were doing.



Why did you repent of your sins? If it wasn't in obedience to the First and Great Commandment (Matthew 22:36-38), you might as well have not bothered. (See 1 Corinthians 13:1-3) When you live God's way because you love Him, your soul won't have any "void."



The Holy Spirit doesn't leave those he has spiritually regenerated and made new creatures in Christ. Now, you may have broken your fellowship with God which will make Him feel at a distance from you, but your relationship to God is unbreakable.

Hebrews 13:5
5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

Romans 8:38-39
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.



God is omnipresent; He is everywhere always; there is no place you can go where He is not (Psalms 139:7-10). In a sense, then, you are never truly lost. God always know exactly where you are.

What sort of an answer are you looking for from God? Do you not trust the promise of His word that if you confess your sins He is faithful and just to forgive your sins and cleanse you from all unrighteousness? (1 John 1:9)



??? Sorry, this doesn't make a lot of sense. If you were truly born-again, God has not left you. And if you quit your sin because you love God and want therefore to obey Him, why wouldn't doing so bring joy and peace to your heart instead of just a void? It should. Getting right with the God we love always has this effect. Let me ask, then: Do you love God?



Hebrews 6:4-6 isn't speaking of a genuinely born-again person. It is describing what Jesus called a "tare" - a person who shares in the life of the Church, who knows the Gospel and gives intellectual assent to it, who may even partner with the Spirit in its work in and through the Church, but who is not actually born again. Is this you? It would explain why you went off into a life of willful sin.



All sin produces death. Read Romans 6:23. But we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous. He makes intercession for us before God's throne and his blood shed at Calvary cleanses us from all sin. Whatever our sin, we need only follow the commands of 1 John 1:9 and Matthew 22:37 to be restored to full fellowship with God.



Yeah, I think it is that you have yet to come into a real, loving relationship with God through Christ. All that you have written in your OP indicates a "tare," not one who is "wheat."



Well, no one can stop you from telling yourself lies. If you are determined to believe them, so be it. But lies they are, nonetheless.

You're acting like I don't want to love the Lord. I do. I pray everyday for Him to give me a heart of flesh again. To help me love Him and others. Nothing is happening. I do agree that I am a tare but I don't agree with your eternal security interpretation of it.

You reading is out of context.

You are adding first person singular to a passage that is speaking about someone else. the passages says If Frank believes and is baptised/the whole 9 yards has been blessed with the spirit ect, and he leaves.. There is nothing Bill can do to bring Him back. that is what 4 and 5 are saying... why? verse 6 Pride is what he is describing, it would be like shaming God/themselves all over again.

This is the SAME SHAME THE PRODIGAL SON underwent when he said to himself that maybe he could go back and be a slave to his father as the slaves ate and where treated better than what he was living!

So how did the Father react in that story? did He treat the lost son as a slave? But the lost son humbled himself before his father and wanting returned as a slave.

What you do not seem to understand is the balance between the prodigal son and the message of heb 6.

That is no third person could have gone to the son and convinced him to return, even if the son eating pig slop. It would kill him in the same way the hebrew writer explains..the son could not serve his father as a slave, if he were once a son, his pride would not allow him to return... However if the son was humbled enough on his own by the living conditions and pig slop making a change in his own heart, it does not say the son would not be welcomed home. in fact that is what happened. The son was FULLY Restored.

Now apart from that, what I said according to romans 7 you are not fully returned. If you want to fully return read the passage in romans and learn to accept and manage your sin... if not then at least you have direction.

The problem is the prodigal son is not talking about a born-again believer wandering off. It's talking about the unregenerate sinner wandering away from the truth. Every believer was a prodigal son at one point. There's no double prodigals. There's no returning to the slop after you've returned to the father. Yes you may fall or sin occasionally but there's a new regenerate nature in you that does not want to do this. If you return to the slop, your new nature dies and there's no restoring that. Unless God somehow decides to change his rules.

 

[discipler7]

Sorry but your interpretation of Hebrews 6 is just not correct. It says it's impossible to RENEW them to repentance. What does renew mean? It means regeneration.

HEBREWS.6: = 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

"Fall away" should mean leaving the faith or forsaking Christ because the Son of God was crucified, in order to gift salvation to fallen Man through faith in Him. "Fall away" does not mean committing sins, even though those who have fallen away from faith in Christ tend to commit sin or do evil.

HEBREWS.10:15 says that those who place their faith in Christ for salvation will have God's laws written on their hearts. Thus they shall walk in the Spirit, led by the Spirit through the Law/Word of God and not sin or not break God's laws.(GALATIANS.5:16-26) This is mostly true for Jewish Christians like apostle Paul, John and Peter; but not completely true for most Gentile Christians who lack the knowledge of God's laws, even though they have been exempted by God from His burdensome laws.(ACTS.15:24-29) Gentile Christians should learn more about God's non-burdensome laws.(1COR.3:1-3)

So, faith ---> walking in the Spirit, led by the Spirit and not sin or not break God's laws.
Fall away from faith ---> walking in the flesh and sin/do evil/break God's laws.

Also, Gentile Christians are more easily ensnared by sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking because of their lack of knowledge in God's laws, either intentionally or ignorantly, eg those who ignore the Old Testament laws as being inapplicable to Christians. If such ignorant and foolish Gentile Christians commit sin/s, they will still be saved as long as they do not fall away from faith in Christ or lose faith or renounce the faith or depart from the faith, even though they will still have to suffer the curses of God for their sin/s.

Wrt salvation, God forgives the sins/evil-deeds of those who plead the blood of Jesus Christ(= the sinners/evildoers will still be saved) but He does not forget the sins/evil-deeds or does not withhold justice for those who have been sinned against. Hence, the Jewish robber who was crucified next to Jesus was saved by faith in Christ but he still died young on the cross. Christians who murder will often die young, eg executed by the government, but may still be saved.(cf; 1COR.5:5)
....... Some Christians falsely believe they have the license-to-sin and the get-out-of-jail-free-card(Monopoly board-game). ...

HOSEA.4:6 = 6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

1JOHN.2: = My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

1COR.11: = 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

 

[aiki]

You're acting like I don't want to love the Lord. I do. I pray everyday for Him to give me a heart of flesh again. To help me love Him and others. Nothing is happening. I do agree that I am a tare but I don't agree with your eternal security interpretation of it.

When a person is born-again, the love of God is shed abroad in their heart by the Holy Spirit. (Romans 5:5) It is in the Person of the Holy Spirit, then, that we obtain the love for God that He desires from us (Galatians 5:22). We access that love by humble, moment-by-moment submission to the will and way of the Spirit. (Romans 6:13; Romans 8:14; Romans 12:1; 1 Peter 5:6, etc.) God has no requirement you must meet to enjoy His love other than simple, wholehearted trust in Christ as your Saviour and Lord and a turning away from a life centered on yourself to one centered upon Him. If you have done this, then you are saved - regardless of what you might at present feel. What matters, after all, is what God has said, not what you feel. His promises don't rely in the least upon the strength of your feelings.

I might also add that love for God is not primarily something you feel, it is not an emotion of affection or happy sentiment, but a desire to obey self-sacrificially the will of one's holy Maker. This is the love Christ demonstrated at the cross of Calvary and the love we are to emulate in the power of the Holy Spirit.

You are always free, of course, to disagree with my interpretation of Scripture but your disagreement, by itself, does not prove I'm wrong in my interpretation.

 

[NeedyFollower]

6 months or so. It was so easy too. Effortless.

I know where you're coming from. Trying to figure out if I was a false convert. But let me tell you something, I came from an OSAS church and it allowed me to get sloppy. If OSAS is false then it's from the pit of hell. I was a true convert and let me tell you something a true convert can fall away. HOWEVER I believe that happens during the first few month or years and if you continue to resist sin and persevere, God will make you persevere to the end but you must show your commitment first. I didn't show mine and did not remain in God's love.

Can a disciple not be converted ? Yes .. Luke 22:32 ..When was Peter converted ? It is my belief that when Peter had denied Christ three times and the Lord looked at him with love , it broke peter's heart ..it broke his pride , it broke him so that Christ was able to live in him . ( The gift of the holy ghost came later after the resurrection . ) Like you , I was born again , was very zealous ..very evangelical ..I WAS born again ..no question ..but eventually I fell away ..slowly , slowly until there was no fear of God ..I was dead spiritually ...I went on with life ..initially as a hypocrite and then as a non practicing believer ...this went on for 20 plus years ..but in the Lord's time , he came and found me ..I was not looking for Him but he can and found me and THAT is when I really knew the Lord ....He is more patient than we can ever know ...I was born again but did not KNOW HIM ... His long suffering ..His patience ..His wisdom ...I do not have words my BROTHER but His timing was perfect ....I will tell you this though ..there is a cost to following him ..my repentance cost me everything ..family , church , friends ,etc ..but love ..real love does that ..I think I also learned WHY I fell away ...spiritual pride ..but maybe that was just me ..one thing I would caution ..be careful of politics ...Jesus is Lord ..we do not get a vote in His sovereignty . He does everything according to His will and His will is perfect ..His timing is perfect ...You will see and you will know Him and Love Him in ways that you never knew nor thought were possible . I look forward to seeing you on that day ..I am glad you are lost for now you can be found ...My concern is for "the saved" .

 

[drich0150]

The problem is the prodigal son is not talking about a born-again believer wandering off. It's talking about the unregenerate sinner wandering away from the truth.

Ahh, no. The fact that the son was a brother tells you he was a member of the family apart of the body he was as the son who remain always was.. Saved. Look at the end where the boy who stayed got angery said I've been with you this whole time and you never threw me a party. The father said it is because everything I have is already yours but your brother was dead and now made alive again. Meaning if the son stayed he would have been like the first son alive this whole time. but the boy went from being apart of the family to walking away from the family and then repenting and returning to the family.

We are not born saved. at no point before our birth where we apart of the family. ur birth refers to our being born of the spirit into the family of God where upon we will be deemed sons. Now it is at this point where a son demands what is due him... after being born again into this family of God this son demands what is due and leaves... burns out on sin, then comes back and is welcomed back,

Your version of the story does not work because at no point where we aprt of this man's family let alone be in a position to demand 1/2 of everything this man owned. Only a son is entitled to what the father owns. for him to be a son he has to be born/born again into God's family. Then he becomes a son... Then he can ask for what is due Him... then he can leave come back or never come back.

That is why the father rejoices.

look at the other two parables in this chapter of luke 15 they too speak of one being missing from the group. if you were not already one of the ten coins you could not be lost. the owner would simply have had 9 coins and the tenth was found.. but the parable says an owner had 10 coins lost one meaning that coin was already apart of the fold belonged to God ect...

Same thing about the parable of the lost sheep where one from the flock are lost.. "we" have to elect being in the flock before God counts us. if we are not in the flock then we are not counted as lost. but if God has 10 that means 10 of us elected to be apart of the flock one is lost, meaning a save person walks away, then is found/repents and the shepard rejoices more for the lost sheep than the ones who never left!

The whole chapter speaks of God having X then loses 1, again He could not have lost something that belongs to satan and always has. If he looses something it means it was his and now is Gone, and because we are not born Christian it means to be his we must elect to do so to be 'born' into the family and become a 'son.'

Every believer was a prodigal son at one point.

No clearly Jesus speaks of us as belonging to God or being sons or satan. we don't belong to God and then elect satan.. no Satan is the father of this realm and as we are born we are born unto sin and become slaves to sin. When we choose to serve God, we choose to be apart of his family for the first time.

There's no double prodigals.

No there are 7x77 prodigals. There is no limited to our sin because we live in this life as slaves to sin. that passage that you refuse to read/comment on explains all of this.

There's no returning to the slop after you've returned to the father.

according to Paul and Romans there is.

Yes you may fall or sin occasionally but there's a new regenerate nature in you that does not want to do this.

indeed this is covered in romans 8 it also goes so far as to tell us what happens when we fall back even if we do not want to!

If you return to the slop, your new nature dies and there's no restoring that. Unless God somehow decides to change his rules.

are you just making stuff up now? are you quoting the book of mormon? where does the bible say this?

Are you unfamiliar with the parable of the unmerciful servant? Even Jesus teaches the opposite of what you just said. in this parable we learn our forgiveness is based on our ability to forgive others. If you want God to give you one chance and one chance only do the same for others. however if you want the mercy of God to be limitless then in turn show limitless mercy.

 

[discipler7]

I know where you're coming from. Trying to figure out if I was a false convert. But let me tell you something, I came from an OSAS church and it allowed me to get sloppy. If OSAS is false then it's from the pit of hell. I was a true convert and let me tell you something a true convert can fall away. HOWEVER I believe that happens during the first few month or years and if you continue to resist sin and persevere, God will make you persevere to the end but you must show your commitment first. I didn't show mine and did not remain in God's love.

Yes, OSAS is a false doctrine as evidenced by your experience and because saving faith can be lost, abandoned, renounced, departed, fall away, etc.
....... The Parable of the Sower and Parable of the Tare and Wheat at MATTHEW.13 say that some Christian believers will renounce their faith in Jesus/God in the face of religious persecution and tribulation, some will abandon the faith because of the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches and that there are false/devilish Christians/pastors/prophets in the Church(MATTHEW.7:15-23).

The false OSAS doctrine often leads the ignorant Christians to commit sins = suffer the horrible consequences of their sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking. But as long as they keep the faith in Jesus Christ/God-in-the-flesh, like Job, they will still be saved from hell when they die.(JOHN.3:14-18)

Job suffered at the hands of Satan because he ignorantly sinned against God by making a vile offering.(JOB.1:5) He did this because he feared greatly that his sons' sins would cause him to lose everything.(JOB.3:25) But about 400 years later, it was revealed in EXODUS.20:5 that only the fathers' sins would fall on the sons or great-grandsons, and not the other way round. So, Job feared/worried for nothing.

 

[aiki]

Yes, OSAS is a false doctrine as evidenced by your experience and because saving faith can be lost, abandoned, renounced, departed, fall away, etc.

I'm afraid this is entirely false. What the OP has described is not someone losing their salvation but the inevitable consequence of merely playing the part of one who is saved.

....... The Parable of the Sower and Parable of the Tare and Wheat at MATTHEW.13 say that some Christian believers will renounce their faith in Jesus/God in the face of religious persecution and tribulation, some will abandon the faith because of the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches and that there are false/devilish Christians/pastors/prophets in the Church(MATTHEW.7:15-23).

No, in fact, this is not what the parables indicate. At all. The Parable of the Sower and the Seed describes four hearers of the word, only one of which (the last hearer) was truly saved by what he heard. The last hearer stands in sharp contrast to all the others in this regard who had, at best, merely an intellectual/emotional response to the "seed." The tares in the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares, are never identified as genuine believers and the fact that they are described by a different term (not "wheat" or true believers) clearly indicates that "tares" are not of the household of faith.

The false OSAS doctrine often leads the ignorant Christians to commit sins = suffer the horrible consequences of their sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking.

This is also entirely false. I have been a proponent of the OSAS view for most of my adult life (I'm past fifty now) and it has not at any time led me to commit sin. Rather than the motive of fear that you espouse as a provocation to obedience, I am learning to love God and to be motivated toward a holy life from that love. Doing so obeys the First and Great Commandment far better than walking with God from the self-centered (not Christ-centered) motive of fear of lost salvation and eternal hell.

But as long as they keep the faith in Jesus Christ/God-in-the-flesh, like Job, they will still be saved from hell when they die.(JOHN.3:14-18)

Which means that they are saved, not by the atoning work of Christ on the cross, but ultimately by their own ability to "keep the faith." This is works-salvation which the Bible flatly rejects.

 

[Invalidusername]

Yes, OSAS is a false doctrine as evidenced by your experience and because saving faith can be lost, abandoned, renounced, departed, fall away, etc.
....... The Parable of the Sower and Parable of the Tare and Wheat at MATTHEW.13 say that some Christian believers will renounce their faith in Jesus/God in the face of religious persecution and tribulation, some will abandon the faith because of the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches and that there are false/devilish Christians/pastors/prophets in the Church(MATTHEW.7:15-23).

The false OSAS doctrine often leads the ignorant Christians to commit sins = suffer the horrible consequences of their sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking. But as long as they keep the faith in Jesus Christ/God-in-the-flesh, like Job, they will still be saved from hell when they die.(JOHN.3:14-18)

Job suffered at the hands of Satan because he ignorantly sinned against God by making a vile offering.(JOB.1:5) He did this because he feared greatly that his sons' sins would cause him to lose everything.(JOB.3:25) But about 400 years later, it was revealed in EXODUS.20:5 that only the fathers' sins would fall on the sons or great-grandsons, and not the other way round. So, Job feared/worried for nothing.

Don't bother trying to argue. The Bible could literally say, "You can lose your salvation." in those words and they'd try to explain it away. It actually does basically say that in many areas in the Bible.

 

[jrbauco21]

Similar story to mine. I took God's love for granted, I took my family's love for granted, I took my church's love for granted. What a costly mistake. I feel the same as you. How long have you been like this?



Mainly realizing how empty life is without God.

It has been a long time... I'm a sophomore in college now, and I started having horrible wicked thoughts against God around.. I guess late middle-school, early high school. I was a young teen. At first, I was afraid to tell anyone about the thoughts, but eventually I told my sister, my mom, and my pastor and they reassured me. They were so kind and gentle with me instead of condemning me as I thought. I still have bad thoughts, even deliberately, but I just don't feel sorrowful over them anymore. Anyway, it's not so much the thoughts I worry about anymore. I used to doubt God's love for me, thinking that my sins were too gross. But now it's my love for Him that I doubt. Even knowing that God has done so much for me, do I love Him? No one, of course, can love Him perfectly, but I just don't have that zeal, and joy, and passion that I see in the true Christians I know.

 

[aiki]

Don't bother trying to argue. The Bible could literally say, "You can lose your salvation." in those words and they'd try to explain it away. It actually does basically say that in many areas in the Bible.

A Strawman and flat misrepresentation in one short remark. Impressive (in an unfortunate sort of way).

 

[jrbauco21]

Have you asked God to fill you with His Holy Spirit? Just a thought. I can understand the feelings but there can be many reasons.

One thing that comes to mind is the narcissist songs sung commonly in church. If they aren’t focusing on what God did for us, they’re singing about some intense devotion we all are supposed to have. I can imagine a diet of singing “how much you gave me” or “I only live for you” instead of “God you are full of lovingkindness” and “trust in the Lord and do good” would leave a believer empty. I’m convinced the enemy has invade christian music and made it weak.

Thank you for your advice! I don't really understand myself, but I know God does. I keep looking up to Him, because I know there's no other way to have true life.

 

[Invalidusername]

It has been a long time... I'm a sophomore in college now, and I started having horrible wicked thoughts against God around.. I guess late middle-school, early high school. I was a young teen. At first, I was afraid to tell anyone about the thoughts, but eventually I told my sister, my mom, and my pastor and they reassured me. They were so kind and gentle with me instead of condemning me as I thought. I still have bad thoughts, even deliberately, but I just don't feel sorrowful over them anymore. Anyway, it's not so much the thoughts I worry about anymore. I used to doubt God's love for me, thinking that my sins were too gross. But now it's my love for Him that I doubt. Even knowing that God has done so much for me, do I love Him? No one, of course, can love Him perfectly, but I just don't have that zeal, and joy, and passion that I see in the true Christians I know.

Aw I think you're alright. It sounds like you haven't fallen into any sin but struggle with intrusive thoughts.

I also do doubt my love for God but I have a more serious condition where my heart is dead. I can't seem to respond to anything spiritual and I try to seek after God but He is either hiding from me now or He has forsaken me because I forsook Him in favor of a lifestyle of sin. My heart is cold now. I cannot feel love or hate or anything really. I am completely numb. I read the Bible but the words don't speak to me like they used to with the Holy Spirit's promptings. I miss that.

 

[friend of]

I read the Bible but the words don't speak to me like they used to with the Holy Spirit's promptings. I miss that.

Me too. Thanks for this thread, it's been encouraging but I feel like, at one pivotal point of weakness in my life, I may have cast off the Lord. I can still somewhat maintain that I did not commit this intentionally, as I was assailed by intrusive thoughts that I just wanted to stop. My mind was going haywire and the thoughts were telling me I was surrounded by aliens who were feasting upon human believers spiritual energy. At that point I told myself that I couldn't handle Christianity and wanted nothing to do with Jesus. Not in so many words. But I am constantly thinking about this point as the point where I may have committed the dreaded apostasy. I too got lazy by OSAS and did not gird myself regarding the future of my soul. I don't know how I slipped into complacency but it was a process that took about a month of lessening prayer and daily recognition of the Spirit's presence in my life. I constantly pray that God didn't let me go at that time and that I was made to endure that point of weakness to and for the future glory of Christ. However, I cannot see how my current Spiritual trajectory would in any way give glory to Christ more so than if I had never slipped into such complacency. I pine for the victorious life I could have now been living in, had I not had this point of weakness. All I can say Is, if you did not consciously reject Christ during your time of living like an apostate, there is still hope for you. I am reminded of 1 John 5:18 and 2 Thessalonians 3:3.

In 2 Thess 3:3 it says that God will protect those who are His from the evil one. My problem is that I do not know whether these thoughts/blasphemies really came from the evil one or if they came from my own heart. If the latter, then I'm in trouble.

 

[friend of]

2 Timothy 2:13 also gives me a glimmer of hope.