Predestination

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I never really attended at a pentecostal church, but we visited one down south kinda by accident. We meant to go to a different church. They were super friendly, even though we were not dressed like everyone else. And the music was great, southern gospel, place was really jumpin, including the pastor. I just roll with it. Reminds me of the holy roller type churches I grew up in where worship is a lot more organic and they just let the Spirit take the service where he will. I'm actually very laid back. I wouldn't join a reformed church, but would have no problem visiting and getting whatever God had for me. I've been to many churches where there was something to disagree with, but generally there is always a lot of good, too. Not likely that any Methodist or Pentecostals are going to get in your face, more like love on you and invite you back regardless.

Would that be before or after they "lay on hands" the Calvinist and without knowledge impose an "exorcism" or push the person down on the floor and call it "slain in the Spirit"?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Irresistable grace in a Pentecostal Church is pushing people down on the floor and claiming they are "slain in the Spirit"...they're just helping god out...afterall as they say "God only helps those who help themselves".

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I actually had such an experience at a tent gathering years ago. I had no idea what I was walking into. The revivalist called everyone to the front, had a "catcher" behind everyone, and if the person did not go down, gave them a nudge. I went up there, and I could see what was coming, and I thought to myself; "God please don't let me go down except that it be real". But I observed that I had no choice about it, and knowing I had a catcher behind me, I caved into the pressure, he gently nudged me, and I went down. Now, for all that angst, God had mercy on me that night, because I did have experience that I've not had since. The way I would describe it now, God gave me an overwhelming awareness of the "seal" of the Spirit all round about me. I could not get up off of the ground, I kind of felt like lightening was surging through me. When I did get up, I felt speechless, but ready to leave, kind of in awe, kind of frightening at the same time, honestly difficult to describe. Understand this experience was completely out of the realm of normal, and I wouldn't recommend trying to make it normal, as it is unnecessary. God is shield, a high tower, mighty to protect His people.

Through another instance, at a different gathering, where I tried to resist being pushed down (I just did not want to go down at the time), I came to see this as a form of what I can only describe as "spiritual abuse", violence in the spiritual realm played out in the natural world.

 

[Loren T.]

It is a fact, if your response saves you = salvation is for the self-righteous.

But, your response doesn't save you, anymore than opening a gift means you went out and purchased it.

 

[Loren T.]

Irresistable grace in a Pentecostal Church is pushing people down on the floor and claiming they are "slain in the Spirit"...they're just helping god out...afterall as they say "God only helps those who help themselves".

I've seen a lot of people get blessed and display this is different ways, but not being Pentecostal, have no experience with anyone forcing anyone to the floor. The churches I grew up in were Wesleyan Methodist and similar. I have just as many problems with some Pentecostal beliefs as I do Calvinism. However, even with all that was wrong with the churches I grew up in, the Spirit was often truly active.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I've seen a lot of people get blessed and display this is different ways, but not being Pentecostal, have no experience with anyone forcing anyone to the floor. The churches I grew up in were Wesleyan Methodist and similar. I have just as many problems with some Pentecostal beliefs as I do Calvinism. However, even with all that was wrong with the churches I grew up in, the Spirit was often truly active.

I assume you're aware of at least some of the history of the Pentecostal movement? It started out as a "Holiness movement", they came out of the Methodists, and I suspect belief in John Wesley's doctrine on sanctification, perfection or complete sanctification in this life, even while existing in corruptible bodies of flesh played a significant role in the basis for their movement.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well said, BNR,

If God desires all to be saved and most turn away in Australia, why are they doing it when it is not God's desire for the godless to remain without salvation?

The logic is clear from Scripture and experience. All people have the ability of free choice / free will, which is the power of choosing between/among alternatives.

It happened in the Garden and it continues today when salvation is proclaimed. They accept or reject. That's the way God has planned the universe and the way to obtain salvation.

It is all covered by His Amazing Grace.

Oz

God desires our love and fellowship. Love is a gift given freely. I’m sure God could’ve created us programmed to love Him but would that really be love? True love can only come by our free will to choose to love God. We must have the freedom to give our love to God for it to be genuine and precious.

 

[Dave L]

But, your response doesn't save you, anymore than opening a gift means you went out and purchased it.

What if you choose not to respond?

 

[Dave L]

That's false.

I've told you that this is the biblical teaching and provided you with biblical evidence but now you engage in the use of a straw man fallacy.

You are dragging free will into scripture and interpreting it in that fashion. Her's an example. Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. You say whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. Jesus is simply telling how to spot a saved person by their faith. But you turn what he said into a law for the self-righteous to use in an attempt to save themselves by choosing to believe.

 

[Bobber]

In all seriousness, such as the above is one good reason why I plan on never setting foot in a Pentecostal or Methodist Church again. Why would I want to be so restrained, so careful as to not let the cat out of bag, where the devil has already poisoned the minds against me, reviling me as a devil? I am not so insane as Servetus, to knowingly and actively pursue what I know will likely result in big T.R.O.U.B.L.E. Neither am I so bold as to enter a Pentecostal Church and mark up the Preachers Bible with Calvinistic notes and throw it in his face. Nah, that's just not my style or how I want to be remembered.

Ah don't be silly. I've been to every type of Pentecostal, evangelical churches imaginable and have never heard any one calling Calvinists devils. So if you're motivated to reject whole groups of people on that basis than know you're suffering a delusion.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Ah don't be silly. I've been to every type of Pentecostal, evangelical churches imaginable and have never heard any one calling Calvinists devils. So if you're motivated to reject whole groups of people on that basis than know you're suffering a delusion.

The primary basis is predicated on the importance of teaching and preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ as it is in Scripture, this doctrine of scripture includes such doctrines as: election, gospel call, regeneration, justification, the atonement, sanctification, and glorification. In short, I put the highest stock, in a Church's communication of soteriology. Most any Church with a Calvinistic soteriology behind it, is where I can feel welcome and open to speak freely. I have spent much time with Churches without a Calvinistic soteriology as a Calvinist, and if I said I felt comfortable, I would not be telling the truth, and in at least a couple of them, I do recall ministers openly reviling Calvinism. So whatever peace you speak of between Calvinists and other Christians, seems to be the delusion. Just the mere mention of the word "Calvinism", stirs up a rise arouses negative emotions as temperatures rise. It is so common these days, and unfortunate poisoning of the well. Catholics can probably understand what I am getting it on this point.

 

[Bobber]

Through another instance, at a different gathering, where I tried to resist being pushed down (I just did not want to go down at the time), I came to see this as a form of what I can only describe as "spiritual abuse", violence in the spiritual realm played out in the natural world.

You and I are on different pages of what we believe on maybe some things or lots of things but I would like to share my opinion on this. I never had an experience of being as they say being "slain in the spirit" and I'm in a church where it happened or supposedly happened to everyone as in almost all the time. Every time I'd go the front for prayer....hands would be put on me for prayer and ..NOPE...not me. I thought I'm not just going to do this fall down thing unless it was so very legit and there was no stopping it.

We see in John 18:7 where it states, "When Jesus said, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground."

Those Romans guards didn't have to think about whether it was real, I mean click....it happened. Well never did happen and I was smart enough to know it means nothing about a relationship to God....but well...the feeling came that some weren't thinking I wasn't too spiritual.....that say I wasn't yielding ever to the spirit. It was just a subtle feeling I was picking up I believe from the leadership of the church that well, Bobber is a real nice guy who loves the Lord but well....he's just not in the groove of the spirit like he should.

Well after a number of more months always tending to feel this way and really I knew better but it became like a monkey on my back bothering me, WHY NOT YOU! WHY NOT YOU! Well I recall I was going for a walk in the night time and I blurted out to the Lord in frustration, "God why not me!" And said some other mopey thing about it. i never expected what would happen but I got home, spent some time with my family, went to my computer room and thought I'd listen to a teaching tape....had boxes full of them no end....reached my hand in the box and pulled out one of hundreds.....the subject on the tape looking later had NOTHING to do with "slain in the spirit" the tape was set at half way through and I just pressed play and,

I hear these words, "For those of you who get upset or wondering about things like falling in the spirit, look I believe that something like that can take place from God but if it doesn't ever happen to you FORGET IT! Don't worry about it! Put the WORD first that's the only thing that matters!" Well I never thought of it again for I knew that was God speaking and I'd like to encourage others as well from what God told me....DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT.

Having said that though AW be careful not to assume you should make light of things and judge these things as being just men in the flesh performing. That's the danger on the other side. People can tend to go off laughing and mocking certain unusual things that might take place and at times it genuinely might be God performing a sign and wonder. In other words don't get caught mocking God. Not that you wouldn't make heaven your home but you wouldn't want the Lord saying on the other side, "You know that was me doing some of those things!" And then you'll go

 

[Loren T.]

You are dragging free will into scripture and interpreting it in that fashion. Her's an example. Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. You say whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. Jesus is simply telling how to spot a saved person by their faith. But you turn what he said into a law for the self-righteous to use in an attempt to save themselves by choosing to believe.

Pratical application: I assume that you are not in favor of telling people to accept Christ as their personal Savior?
Luke 3:8 produce the fruit of repentance.
Hebrews 7:25 Come to God
Revelation 22:17 let he who is thirsty come.

Salvation is conditional. God is not a swat team kicking down your door and dragging you in by the hair.

 

[Dave L]

Pratical application: I assume that you are not in favor of telling people to accept Christ as their personal Savior?
Luke 3:8 produce the fruit of repentance.
Hebrews 7:25 Come to God
Revelation 22:17 let he who is thirsty come.

Salvation is conditional. God is not a swat team kicking down your door and dragging you in by the hair.

You are adding to the gospel. Turning it into law. Denying grace and making salvation conditional. Transferring people's faith from Christ to themselves.

 

[Loren T.]

You are adding to the gospel. Turning it into law. Denying grace and making salvation conditional. Transferring people's faith from Christ to themselves.

Well you never answer any questions and ignore the verses that say otherwise, so why would I believe you?

 

[Loren T.]

What if you choose not to respond?

My father recently gave me a piece of land. For free. I didn't earn it or merit it in any way. I also didn't refuse it. If you refuse God s gift, I can't imagine any other reason than pride. In Jeremiah, it says his people loved their lies, so God would punish them. To refuse salvation is to love your lie, whichever lie you choose. The lie that you can handle life on your own. The lie that you can work your way into heaven. The lie that your sin is better than God's forgiveness. That's the choice. Accept Grace or embrace your lie.

 

[Dave L]

My father recently gave me a piece of land. For free. I didn't earn it or merit it in any way. I also didn't refuse it. If you refuse God s gift, I can't imagine any other reason than pride. In Jeremiah, it says his people loved their lies, so God would punish them. To refuse salvation is to love your lie, whichever lie you choose. The lie that you can handle life on your own. The lie that you can work your way into heaven. The lie that your sin is better than God's forgiveness. That's the choice. Accept Grace or embrace your lie.

This is conditional salvation = works and not grace.

 

[Dave L]

Well you never answer any questions and ignore the verses that say otherwise, so why would I believe you?

I said several times, you import free will into scripture. This destroys grace and promotes works and self righteousness.

 

[Loren T.]

I said several times, you import free will into scripture. This destroys grace and promotes works and self righteousness.

I can say several times that dogs fly backwards on red balloons at night. Doesn't make it any more true.

 

[Dave L]

I can say several times that dogs fly backwards on red balloons at night. Doesn't make it any more true.

The same is true for your false gospel.