Predestination

[Loren T.]

I cannot imagine they thought George believed God is the author of sin, that people are like robots, or puppets on a string, kind of defeats the whole preaching behind the "great awakening" dontcha think?

"For, Seventhly, it is a doctrine full of blasphemy; of such blasphemy as I should dread to mention, but that the honour of our gracious God, and the cause of his truth, will not suffer me to be silent. In the cause of God, then, and from a sincere concern for the glory of his great name, I will mention a few of the horrible blasphemies contained in this horrible doctrine. But first, I must warn every one of you that hears, as ye will answer it at the great day, not to charge me (as some have done) with blaspheming, because I mention the blasphemy of others. And the more you are grieve with them that do thus blaspheme, see that ye “confirm your love towards them: the more, and that your heart’s desire, and continual prayer to God, be, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do!”
2. Such blasphemy this, as one would think might make the ears of a Christian to tingle! But there is yet more behind; for just as it honours the Son, so doth this doctrine honour the Father. It destroys all his attributes at once: It overturns both his justice, mercy, and truth; yea, it represents the most holy God as worse than the devil, as both more false, more cruel, and more unjust. More false; because the devil, liar as he is, hath never said, “He willeth all men to be saved:” More unjust; because the devil cannot, if he would, be guilty of such injustice as you ascribe to God, when you say that God condemned millions of souls to everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, for continuing in sin, which, for want of that grace he will not give them, they cannot avoid: And more cruel; because that unhappy spirit “seeketh rest and findeth none;” so that his own restless misery is a kind of temptation to him to tempt others. But God resteth in his high and holy place; so that to suppose him, of his own mere motion, of his pure will and pleasure, happy as he is, to doom his creatures, whether they will or no, to endless misery, is to impute such cruelty to him as we cannot impute even to the great enemy of God and man. It is to represent the high God (he that hath ears to hear let him hear!) as more cruel, false, and unjust than the devil!" (John Wesley, in the sermon "free grace.")

I think Wesley was pretty clear about what he thought about Calvinism. Why do you think Wesley and Whitefield parted ways?

 

[Loren T.]

If salvation is a choice, then only the self-righteous, those who aspire towards righteousness, will choose to save themselves.

So you have said, over and over again, without anything to back it up.

 

[Dave L]

So you have said, over and over again, without anything to back it up.

You are reading free will into scripture. "Whosoever believes will be saved" is not "whosoever chooses to believe will be saved". Faith is a trait of the saved, not a condition for salvation.

 

[Loren T.]

You are reading free will into scripture. "Whosoever believes will be saved" is not "whosoever chooses to believe will be saved". Faith is a trait of the saved, not a condition for salvation.

Scripture contradicts this over and over again.
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Order of salvation, believe and then be saved.

 

[Dave L]

Scripture contradicts this over and over again.
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Order of salvation, believe and then be saved.

This is salvation by works. True believers do this as a fruit of grace, not as a means of grace.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

"Apologetic_Warrior,



Does God Control the Human Heart?

1. The Bible teaches that God can accomplish whatever He desires. God is God. He cannot be thwarted by finite sinful man.

Psalm 115:3. “But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.”

Psalm 135:6. “Whatever the LORD pleases He does, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deep places.”

Isaiah 46:10-11. “My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure.... Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.”

Job 42:2. “You can do everything, and that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.”

Daniel 4:35. “He does according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand.”

2. Note also that God is sovereign even over man’s heart and will.

Proverbs 16:1. “The preparations of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.”

Proverbs 16:9. “A man’s heart plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps.”

Proverbs 19:21. “There are many plans in a man’s heart; nevertheless, the LORD’S counsel. that will stand.”

If God controls man’s steps, does this not prove that God is in total control? No matter what man plans, God’s will is perfectly executed.

Proverbs 21:1. “The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: He turns it wherever He wishes.”
“What could be more explicit? Out of the heart are ‘the issues of life’ (Prov. 4:23), for as man ‘thinketh in his heart, so is he’ (Prov. 23:7). If then the heart is in the hand of the Lord, and if ‘he turneth it whithersoever He will,’ then is it not clear that men, yea, governors and rulers, and so all men, are completely beneath the governmental control of the Almighty!”78

3. God controls the human heart. He can harden it or He can open it to receive the gospel.

Revelation 17:17. “For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.”

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12. “For this reason God will send them [those who perish] strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned.”

Romans 9:18-21. “He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, ‘Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?’ But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why have you made me like this?’ Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?”

Deuteronomy 2:30. “But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass through, for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into your hand, as it is this day.”

Joshua 11:19-20. “There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, except the Hivites, the inhabitants of Gibeon. All the others they took in battle. For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them, as the LORD had commanded Moses.”

Exodus 10:1, 20. “Now the LORD said to Moses, ‘Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before them….’ But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go” (cf. Ex. 4:21; 7:3; 9:12; 14:4; 20:27).

John 12:39-40. “Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they should see with their eyes and understand with their heart, lest they should turn, so that I should heal them” (cf. Mk. 4:11-12).

Luke 24:4. “And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.”

Acts 16:14. “Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshipped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.”

Philippians 2:13. “For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.”

Ezra 1:1, 5. “The LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom.... Then the heads of the fathers’ houses of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and the Levites, with all those whose spirits God had moved, arose to go up and build the house of the Lord” (cf. Ezra 6:22; 7:6; Ex. 12:36; Ezek. 36:27; Gen. 20:6; Isa. 6:9-10; Lk. 8:10).

The idea that God surrendered His sovereignty to man’s will is clearly unscriptural. There are so many passages in Scripture which show God working directly upon man’s heart and will to achieve His own ends that it is astonishing that anyone who believes in the authority of Scripture could deny it. Most evangelicals and fundamentalists, in their attempt to protect their unbiblical concept of free will, have dethroned God. God is helpless, waiting to see what finite, sinful mortals will do. The Most-High is stripped of His omnipotence. Pink writes: “The God of the twentieth century is a helpless, effeminate being who commands the respect of no really thoughtful man. The God of the popular mind is the creation of a maudlin sentimentality. The God of many a present-day pulpit is an object of pity rather than of awe-inspiring reverence. To say that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all mankind, that God the Son died and that God the Holy Spirit is now seeking to win the world to Christ; when as a matter of common observation, it is apparent that the great majority of our fellow-men are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity: is to say that God the Father is disappointed, that God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated.”79

The Arminian doctrine that God sovereignly decided to create an area of created reality (man’s will) outside of His control is irrational. It is a theological impossibility. Why? Because God by nature is absolutely sovereign and all powerful. He cannotcreate a pocket of chance or pure contingency in His creation. God would have to cease to be God and deny Himself to do so. God could no more cease control of man’s spirit then He could create a being that could exist apart from His sustaining power. God has created all things. He controls all things that come to pass by His power, and according to His plan. There is not one atom or one creature beyond His power and control. The very reason that God knows every bit of history in advance is not just that He knows all things and is outside of time, but also because everything comes to pass according to His decree. Nothing can occur without His ordering. “Should anything take place contrary to the will of God, because in the opinion of the finite creature it is not ‘good,’ then Satan and man (on occasion at least) must be equal or superior to the Creator whose Word claims that He is omnipotent and wholly irresistible! On the other hand, if the determinative will of Jehovah reflects His immutable nature of Being, it can neither be obstructed nor cancelled. Therefore, whatever comes to pass in any part of creation, at any time in history, does so because the omniscient God knew it as a possibility, willed it as a reality by His omnipotence, and established it in His divine plan or purpose.”80

The Bible teaches that when Christ returns, all His saints will receive glorified bodies and spend eternity in paradise with Him. All evangelicals believe this, yet the popular modern evangelical idea that God voluntarily limits His power so He doesn’t intrude on man’s free will would render this doctrine impossible. Why? Because if God has no power to control man’s heart and will, there can never be a guarantee that someday down the road God’s saints or the angels will not sin and rebel against Him. In fact, given the length of the saints’ stay in heaven (i.e., forever and ever), another fall into sin would be inevitable. If the Arminian argues that God will change the saints’ nature at the resurrection rendering Christians unable to sin in heaven, then he has conceded the whole argument. Why? Because if God is able to change man’s heart or spirit to make it fit for the heavenly state, then He also has the power to change man’s heart and will on earth."

From the Article "Limited Atonement" by Brian Schwertley[/QUOTE]


Yes....this is exactly what is going on here and elsewhere. They will offer anything to oppose truth. A wonderful list of verses is offered and now they will line up to explain away the truth.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

"For, Seventhly, it is a doctrine full of blasphemy; of such blasphemy as I should dread to mention, but that the honour of our gracious God, and the cause of his truth, will not suffer me to be silent. In the cause of God, then, and from a sincere concern for the glory of his great name, I will mention a few of the horrible blasphemies contained in this horrible doctrine. But first, I must warn every one of you that hears, as ye will answer it at the great day, not to charge me (as some have done) with blaspheming, because I mention the blasphemy of others. And the more you are grieve with them that do thus blaspheme, see that ye “confirm your love towards them: the more, and that your heart’s desire, and continual prayer to God, be, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do!”
2. Such blasphemy this, as one would think might make the ears of a Christian to tingle! But there is yet more behind; for just as it honours the Son, so doth this doctrine honour the Father. It destroys all his attributes at once: It overturns both his justice, mercy, and truth; yea, it represents the most holy God as worse than the devil, as both more false, more cruel, and more unjust. More false; because the devil, liar as he is, hath never said, “He willeth all men to be saved:” More unjust; because the devil cannot, if he would, be guilty of such injustice as you ascribe to God, when you say that God condemned millions of souls to everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, for continuing in sin, which, for want of that grace he will not give them, they cannot avoid: And more cruel; because that unhappy spirit “seeketh rest and findeth none;” so that his own restless misery is a kind of temptation to him to tempt others. But God resteth in his high and holy place; so that to suppose him, of his own mere motion, of his pure will and pleasure, happy as he is, to doom his creatures, whether they will or no, to endless misery, is to impute such cruelty to him as we cannot impute even to the great enemy of God and man. It is to represent the high God (he that hath ears to hear let him hear!) as more cruel, false, and unjust than the devil!" (John Wesley, in the sermon "free grace.")

I think Wesley was pretty clear about what he thought about Calvinism. Why do you think Wesley and Whitefield parted ways?

Apparently because Wesley ironically was a blasphemer himself! How loving and kind way to treat another Christian, is it any wonder why we cannot have genuine fellowship with one another here and now? For Wesley is in turn saying he joined with a devil to establish his Church...Ah but see the connection. And by implication, Calvinists could not be Christians, afterall, if the elect could be so deeply deceived, all would be deceived, but it is not the case thanks to Christ Jesus. It's just too bad for all of Wesley's long winded rhetoric that he could not quote a Calvinist one or make an actual argument. Calling someone a cheesecake doesn't make it so, calling a theology a cheesecake does not make it so either. Free speech and opinion I suppose...

 

[Loren T.]

This is salvation by works. True believers do this as a fruit of grace, not as a means of grace.

Well I guess you know better than the apostle Paul about these things. Repeatedly making the same false statement doesn't make it any more true.
Yes, we are enabled to believe because of grace, but we are not obligated to believe. In fact Jesus says we must remain in him for him to remain in us, so our responsibility to continue believing does not end at salvation.

 

[Dave L]

Well I guess you know better than the apostle Paul about these things. Repeatedly making the same false statement doesn't make it any more true.
Yes, we are enabled to believe because of grace, but we are not obligated to believe. In fact Jesus says we must remain in him for him to remain in us, so our responsibility to continue believing does not end at salvation.

This results in salvation by works. Or worse, salvation by self-righteousness.

 

[Loren T.]

Apparently because Wesley ironically was a blasphemer himself! How loving and kind way to treat another Christian, is it any wonder why we cannot have genuine fellowship with one another here and now? For Wesley is in turn saying he joined with a devil to establish his Church...Ah but see the connection. And by implication, Calvinists could not be Christians, afterall, if the elect could be so deeply deceived, all would be deceived, but it is not the case thanks to Christ Jesus. It's just too bad for all of Wesley's long winded rhetoric that he could not quote a Calvinist one or make an actual argument. Calling someone a cheesecake doesn't make it so, calling a theology a cheesecake does not make it so either. Free speech and opinion I suppose...

Free speech doesn't exist in your reality. Free anything doesn't exist. Obviously Whitefield did not take his beliefs to their logical conclusion. The truth is hardly any determinist does. I'm not sure what good a theological position is if you can't practically apply it to real life. Everyone lives as if Free Will is a reality. Seems a lot of people embrace Calvinism and then continue to live as if it was not true in their lives. Especially Calvinist missionaries. There are no lost sinners in Calvinism, only born saints and born reprobates, so to become a Calvinist missionary must require a certain kind of double mindedness, where you preach like an armininan, which really most Calvinist do most of the time anyway. John Piper even wrote a book about not wasting your life. Oh the irony! You can't waste something you have no control over. You only can do whatever you are made to do whether it's preach or kill or sit on the couch and drink vodka. Reality is a lot more complicated than that, but I suppose reality can be scary, and a nice tidy world where everyone is a puppet sounds safer.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

OzSpen,

Hello Brother....thanks for taking time to respond and offer your understanding concerning the So Great Salvation that is found in Jesus.
It is okay if we disagree to begin with, but lets work through these issues and see if we can agree on more than we do not agree on
ICONO,

[I do not know you, but from your profile with the avatar, you identify as a Calvinist. I'd like to respond to a few of your comments in this post.]
Yes...theologically I am a reformed baptist
[Can we obey or disobey the Holy Spirit?

How is it possible to resist the Holy Spirit and so reject Him?

The words of Stephen, the first Christian martyr, were spoken to a hostile audience. The message of the risen Christ was being rejected. "You stiff-necked people," he says, "with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!" (Acts 7:51) Their response was like the response their ancestors gave whenever a prophet came among them; their rejection of the message was tantamount to resisting the Holy Spirit. It was as if the Holy Spirit were personally speaking to them and they were rejecting him. The Jews resisted what Stephen said: "they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him... they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, dragged him out of the city and began to stone him." (Acts 7:54-57) The Holy Spirit was speaking through Stephen and, when his message was rejected, the Holy Spirit was being resisted.]
+
Yes...of course the Holy Spirit can and is resisted everyday.The idea that calvinists believe this is not possible is false.
In the case of elect persons, the Holy Spirit is not ultimately resisted.
These reprobates spoken of in Acts7 resisted unto death as their fathers also did before them.


[We get an insight from Jesus into how the Jews in his day resisted the Spirit. Jesus worked miracles "by the Spirit of God" yet they attributed his power to demons. (Matthew 12:25-31) They were resisting the Holy Spirit. Jesus said to them, "You refuse to come to me to have life." (John 5:40) ]
OZ, unbelievers resist daily. They are bound in sin and cannot welcome truth 1cor2:14, rom8:7

[Jesus didn't say that they couldn't come to him, but that they refused to come to him. ]

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

41 I receive not honour from men.

42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
ylt-40 and ye do not will to come unto me, that ye may have life;


[They were resisting the Holy Spirit. We see further resistance when Paul was on trial before Felix. Paul "spoke about faith in Christ Jesus [and] discoursed on righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come." We read that "Felix was afraid and said, 'That's enough for now! You may leave. When I find it convenient, I will send for you.'" (Acts 24:25-26) The Holy Spirit was at work in Felix's heart, but he was resisting the Spirit. He dismissed Paul; he didn't want to hear any more. The same resistance is seen in many of the Jews who came to Paul while he was under house arrest in Rome. "From morning till evening he explained and declared to them the kingdom of God and tried to convince them about Jesus from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets. Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe." (Acts 28:23-24) Those who "would not believe" chose to reject the truth and so resisted the Holy Spirit (BibleAnswers.ie 2018).]​

Again...unbelievers always resist....
]
[If a person's name is not written in the Book of Life that person will be cast by God into the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:15).

How does a human being get to Hades and so make themselves eligible for the Lake of Fire? It is because of the free will choice given to all human beings to respond to the offer of salvation or reject it ]
Oz...there is no "free will"
It is not in the bible speaking about mans will....in the ot law...the term was used 17times of voluntary offering[not required by law]
It is never used of mans will...never

People will offer the word choose...but that does not address the will.
[see #307). God does not force anyone (unconditionally elect) into Hades or Paradise at death.]

Election is unconditional....but not as you describe...watch how these pastors worded this in the 1689 confession of faith;
Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27;Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

[The Gospel of John teaches the free will options of choice in regard to salvation:]


Oz...we do not have a choice! The fall has constituted us as enemies of God and not subject to His word. God has commanded all men everywhere to repent...it is not a choise, by nature we resist!

• ['Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects [or disobeys] the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them' (John 3:36 NIV).]

notice...Gods wrath remains on him

• ['You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life' (John 5:39-40 NIV).]

you WILL NOT COME to me
[Jesus teaches free will choice to believe or to reject Him.]
Jesus did not teach anything about free will anything....rejecting Him is not an option.....

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

This is what Jesus taught on the will...you will not, you cannot.

[Non-Christians are cast into the Lake of Fire as their final destination because they used their God-given choice to reject Jesus and be cast into Hades at death.]

no...they are cast into hell because their sin has not been paid for, and they were never saved from their sin. They are eternally in second death.


The Bible does not tell me so!!! This is what Scripture tells me:

• 'He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world' (1 John 2:2 ESV).

'The sins of' is not in the text. it is...not for ours only, but the whole world, speaking of the fact that God has His elect scattered worldwide...not just in Israel.

• ['But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone' (Heb 2:9 ESV).]

let the context explain the term everyone.....observe;
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Not one bolded phrase speaks of unsaved persons...that is the everyone in view.

• '[Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time' (1 Tim 2:6 ESV).]

Are all men everywhere saved, or are all kinds of men?
i will look at your post 307, plus the last portion of this post next.

 

[Loren T.]

This results in salvation by works. Or worse, salvation by self-righteousness.

Yeah I got that after the 10th time. Okay dokey.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Free speech doesn't exist in your reality. Free anything doesn't exist. Obviously Whitefield did not take his beliefs to their logical conclusion. The truth is hardly any determinist does. I'm not sure what good a theological position is if you can't practically apply it to real life. Everyone lives as if Free Will is a reality. Seems a lot of people embrace Calvinism and then continue to live as if it was not true in their lives. Especially Calvinist missionaries. There are no lost sinners in Calvinism, only born saints and born reprobates, so to become a Calvinist missionary must require a certain kind of double mindedness, where you preach like an armininan, which really most Calvinist do most of the time anyway. John Piper even wrote a book about not wasting your life. Oh the irony! You can't waste something you have no control over. You only can do whatever you are made to do whether it's preach or kill or sit on the couch and drink vodka. Reality is a lot more complicated than that, but I suppose reality can be scary, and a nice tidy world where everyone is a puppet sounds safer.

Your emotional rants and caricatures do not promote good interaction Loren.
is this because you are struggling to answer the men here?
The doctrines of grace speak to every area of life as the calvinist wrote in psalm 139.

139 O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.

2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.

5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

 

[sdowney717]

Jesus speaking about unbelieving jews... said they were unable to listen to His words.
The reason being they were not of God, not born again, not spiritually alive, they were dead on the inside, did not live according to the Spirit meaning being born again of incorruptible seed. That only happens according to God's mercy and love for an individual person.
Such a person is following after the lust of the flesh, influenced by a satanic wisdom that comes from below, Satan is their father, they love the fruits of the flesh and doing wickedly, of course to varying degrees, not all are as bad as another. But there is none that does good. Which is why we must be born again, become of the Father, so we will be teachable by the Holy Spirit, so we can learn of the Father and be led to the Son. All those that are taught by God, come to Christ.

John 8
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Ephesians 2 is honestly no different for unbelieving gentiles. They also walk according to the ways of the devil and fuflill the lusts of the flesh. If you are not spiritually alive, then that is all you got, the flesh and the devil as your leader and god. God is not the Father of the children of the devil.

Ephesians 2 New King James Version (NKJV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

oz...you did not post in 307?

 

[sdowney717]

Salvation is according to His mercy. Romans 9 explains, it is entirely God's prerogative and not of him who runs or of the will of the man who will be given mercy and compassion and who will be hardened.

1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Free speech doesn't exist in your reality. Free anything doesn't exist. Obviously Whitefield did not take his beliefs to their logical conclusion. The truth is hardly any determinist does. I'm not sure what good a theological position is if you can't practically apply it to real life. Everyone lives as if Free Will is a reality. Seems a lot of people embrace Calvinism and then continue to live as if it was not true in their lives. Especially Calvinist missionaries. There are no lost sinners in Calvinism, only born saints and born reprobates, so to become a Calvinist missionary must require a certain kind of double mindedness, where you preach like an armininan, which really most Calvinist do most of the time anyway. John Piper even wrote a book about not wasting your life. Oh the irony! You can't waste something you have no control over. You only can do whatever you are made to do whether it's preach or kill or sit on the couch and drink vodka. Reality is a lot more complicated than that, but I suppose reality can be scary, and a nice tidy world where everyone is a puppet sounds safer.

The god of interdeterminism is a real letdown, just a god of generalities. Countless will perish in the everlasting fire, with the blood of christ shed for them, while you were wiser, more humble, something in you in addition to that helpful common grace, decided one day to reach out to god, that is help god make the choice he did not make but watched your righteous performance from all eternity, the choice that the rest could have made, but chose not to make that righteous choice, and poor god knew about them all along, but sat on the sideline, keeping the bench warm and toasty. Do you not feel special? A fine jewel for that crown.

 

[Loren T.]

Your emotional rants and caricatures do not promote good interaction Loren.
is this because you are struggling to answer the men here?
The doctrines of grace speak to every area of life as the calvinist wrote in psalm 139.

139 O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.

2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.

5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

Beautiful scripture. Nothing that any Christian doesn't embrace, so not sure why you are quoting it?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

"For, Seventhly, it is a doctrine full of blasphemy; of such blasphemy as I should dread to mention, but that the honour of our gracious God, and the cause of his truth, will not suffer me to be silent. In the cause of God, then, and from a sincere concern for the glory of his great name, I will mention a few of the horrible blasphemies contained in this horrible doctrine. But first, I must warn every one of you that hears, as ye will answer it at the great day, not to charge me (as some have done) with blaspheming, because I mention the blasphemy of others. And the more you are grieve with them that do thus blaspheme, see that ye “confirm your love towards them: the more, and that your heart’s desire, and continual prayer to God, be, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do!”
2. Such blasphemy this, as one would think might make the ears of a Christian to tingle! But there is yet more behind; for just as it honours the Son, so doth this doctrine honour the Father. It destroys all his attributes at once: It overturns both his justice, mercy, and truth; yea, it represents the most holy God as worse than the devil, as both more false, more cruel, and more unjust. More false; because the devil, liar as he is, hath never said, “He willeth all men to be saved:” More unjust; because the devil cannot, if he would, be guilty of such injustice as you ascribe to God, when you say that God condemned millions of souls to everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, for continuing in sin, which, for want of that grace he will not give them, they cannot avoid: And more cruel; because that unhappy spirit “seeketh rest and findeth none;” so that his own restless misery is a kind of temptation to him to tempt others. But God resteth in his high and holy place; so that to suppose him, of his own mere motion, of his pure will and pleasure, happy as he is, to doom his creatures, whether they will or no, to endless misery, is to impute such cruelty to him as we cannot impute even to the great enemy of God and man. It is to represent the high God (he that hath ears to hear let him hear!) as more cruel, false, and unjust than the devil!" (John Wesley, in the sermon "free grace.")

I think Wesley was pretty clear about what he thought about Calvinism. Why do you think Wesley and Whitefield parted ways?

In all seriousness, such as the above is one good reason why I plan on never setting foot in a Pentecostal or Methodist Church again. Why would I want to be so restrained, so careful as to not let the cat out of bag, where the devil has already poisoned the minds against me, reviling me as a devil? I am not so insane as Servetus, to knowingly and actively pursue what I know will likely result in big T.R.O.U.B.L.E. Neither am I so bold as to enter a Pentecostal Church and mark up the Preachers Bible with Calvinistic notes and throw it in his face. Nah, that's just not my style or how I want to be remembered.

 

[sdowney717]

The god of interdeterminism is a real letdown, just a god of generalities. Countless will perish in the everlasting fire, with the blood of christ shed for them, while you were wiser, more humble, something in you in addition to that helpful common grace, decided one day to reach out to god, that is help god make the choice he did not make but watched your righteous performance from all eternity, the choice that the rest could have made, but chose not to make that righteous choice, and poor god knew about them all along, but sat on the sideline, keeping the bench warm and toasty. Do you not feel special? A fine jewel for that crown.

To them, the ones that get saved are 'better learners' a Darwinian survival of the fittest intellects.