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Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

BNR32FAN

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I suppose it determines what we think Scripture means by "in Me." I've come to think it means all who profess to be in Him, which does not intend that all who profess Christ are in Christ. If they're not truly connected to the Vine they will not be a true part of Him, which are false professors, otherwise they would produce if they are connected to the Vine.

Presently I know of no Bible commentator that relate "in Me" to denote true unity with the Lord Jesus but rather describes that those who are unfruitful have not been connected with the Vine.

The person must be a part of the vine for several reasons. First Jesus says that God prunes every branch that produces fruit and He says that you have already been pruned. You can’t be pruned if your not part of the vine. You can’t remain in Jesus if you are not currently in Jesus. You cannot produce fruit if you are severed from the vine. He also says apart from Me you can do nothing. These are all indications that you are currently part of the vine. It’s a pretty strong case.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I suppose it determines what we think Scripture means by "in Me." I've come to think it means all who profess to be in Him, which does not intend that all who profess Christ are in Christ. If they're not truly connected to the Vine they will not be a true part of Him, which are false professors, otherwise they would produce if they are connected to the Vine.

Presently I know of no Bible commentator that relate "in Me" to denote true unity with the Lord Jesus but rather describes that those who are unfruitful have not been connected with the Vine.

Also the servant of the master is another indication among many others. Look at the examples the Bible gives of people who will not enter heaven or will not inherit the kingdom of God. All of these examples are specifically meant for believers. Nonbelievers do not qualify to enter heaven or inherit the kingdom of God to begin with.
 
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WordSword

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First Jesus says that God prunes every branch that produces fruit and He says that you have already been pruned.
First, I wanted you to know (which I trust is the same with you) that my debating with others is never to compete but solely to attempt to get at the "Word of Truth," and equally important, to fellowship in it with other believers.

I'm not familiar with Scripture indicating a previous pruning.

Blessings!
 
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WordSword

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Also the servant of the master is another indication among many others. Look at the examples the Bible gives of people who will not enter heaven or will not inherit the kingdom of God. All of these examples are specifically meant for believers. Nonbelievers do not qualify to enter heaven or inherit the kingdom of God to begin with.
Not sure I get your meaning here.
 
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BNR32FAN

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First, I wanted you to know (which I trust is the same with you) that my debating with others is never to compete but solely to attempt to get at the "Word of Truth," and equally important, to fellowship in it with other believers.

I'm not familiar with Scripture indicating a previous pruning.

Blessings!

I’m sorry I should’ve checked my Bible version. I was on the NLT version. Jesus says God cleanses every branch that bears fruit and He says that we are already cleansed. Which indicates that we are currently a branch of the vine. Then Jesus warns us to remain in Him otherwise we will be cut off of the vine.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Not sure I get your meaning here.

I believe the parable of the servant of the master is referring to loss of salvation.

““A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:45-51‬

The servant of the master is a servant of God.

Now the other point I was trying to make is look at these scriptures which apply to everyone including believers. Personally I believe these can actually only apply to believers because nonbelievers cannot be saved regardless of whether they keep God’s commandments.

When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.


Galatians 5:19-21


Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.


Matthew 3:10


Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.


Revelation 21:27


Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.


Ephesians 5:3-6


But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’ “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’ “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.


Matthew 25:31-46

All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children. “But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.


Revelation 21:7-8


Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. “And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalf is welcoming me. But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea. “What sorrow awaits the world, because it tempts people to sin. Temptations are inevitable, but what sorrow awaits the person who does the tempting. So if your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand or one foot than to be thrown into eternal fire with both of your hands and feet. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.


Matthew 18:3-10

All of these passages of scripture are directed to everyone including believers. So if a believer doesn’t obey God’s commandments or doesn’t bear fruit he will not be saved. Believers are not exempt from these teachings.
 
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WordSword

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I’m sorry I should’ve checked my Bible version. I was on the NLT version. Jesus says God cleanses every branch that bears fruit and He says that we are already cleansed. Which indicates that we are currently a branch of the vine. Then Jesus warns us to remain in Him otherwise we will be cut off of the vine.
If you're meaning this - "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. (John 15:3), I believe He is speaking only to professors (branches) that He knows who are truly in Him. Those who are not He exposes so all can know and learn from what He does with true and false professors.
 
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BNR32FAN

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If you're meaning this - "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. (John 15:3), I believe He is speaking only to professors (branches) that He knows who are truly in Him. Those who are not He exposes so all can know and learn from what He does with true and false professors.

Professors would not be cleansed.
 
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BNR32FAN

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If you're meaning this - "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. (John 15:3), I believe He is speaking only to professors (branches) that He knows who are truly in Him. Those who are not He exposes so all can know and learn from what He does with true and false professors.

Sorry I’m at work I have to make quick replies lol. Professors would not be cleansed by God because while they might be able to fool us they cannot fool God who does the cleansing. Also in order for a person to remain in Christ they must first be currently in Christ. They cannot remain in Christ if they are not in Christ.
 
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WordSword

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I believe the parable of the servant of the master is referring to loss of salvation.

““A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:45-51‬

The servant of the master is a servant of God.
I see this passage relating to one who is not a true servant, which would be one who desires the maters pleasure. Thus one cannot be considered a servant unless he is true to the master. Same for even a son, which is not considered to be a son if untrue to his parents, i.e. "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly . . . But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly" (Rom 2:28, 29). This designs the intention that even though one is born a Jew and is godly, he is not considered a Jew.

Now the other point I was trying to make is look at these scriptures which apply to everyone including believers. Personally I believe these can actually only apply to believers because nonbelievers cannot be saved regardless of whether they keep God’s commandments.

When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
Isn't this descriptive of those who are not led of the Spirit (Gal 5:18)? This is the same for Romans 8, which is a contrast between being led by the Spirit or by the flesh (old man; sinful nature). We all tend to forget that nobody can desire both (Mat 12:33; Jam 3:12). I've understood that what we desire is what we are "after" (flesh or Spirit - Rom 8:1), regardless of the continued-but-minimized affects of the indwelling old man!
 
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JLB777

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Falling Away? John covers that in 1John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.
For if they had belonged to us,
(ONCE SAVED)
they would have remained with us; (ALWAYS SAVED)
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

I have ignored nothing. You just haven't listened.

But if you chose to ignore what John says, then realize he also says,
"We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us;
but whoever is not from God does not listen to us."
1John 4:6



Could you define what lost means from the words and language of this scripture?



4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7



JLB
 
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bcbsr

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Could you define what lost means from the words and language of this scripture?



4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7



JLB
In that parable Jesus is not referring to "Christians" as Christians did not yet exist when he told the parable. Rather he said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." He was referring to people who identified with the God of Israel but who had yet to be saved through faith in Christ. So with regards to the status of those born of God, the parable doesn't apply. Likewise with regards to the parable of the prodigal son, who was also lost and is also in the same chapter.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I see this passage relating to one who is not a true servant, which would be one who desires the maters pleasure. Thus one cannot be considered a servant unless he is true to the master. Same for even a son, which is not considered to be a son if untrue to his parents, i.e. "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly . . . But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly" (Rom 2:28, 29). This designs the intention that even though one is born a Jew and is godly, he is not considered a Jew.


Isn't this descriptive of those who are not led of the Spirit (Gal 5:18)? This is the same for Romans 8, which is a contrast between being led by the Spirit or by the flesh (old man; sinful nature). We all tend to forget that nobody can desire both (Mat 12:33; Jam 3:12). I've understood that what we desire is what we are "after" (flesh or Spirit - Rom 8:1), regardless of the continued-but-minimized affects of the indwelling old man!

That is the big debate. Were those who have received the message, partaken of the Holy Spirit and later turn away from God really believers in the first place? The early church fathers taught that salvation could be lost. I see some really strong evidence that appears to support both eternal salvation and the loss of salvation. So if I must make a choice I would rather choose the path that is narrow and in line with the early church fathers. As long as I remain in Christ none of this debate really matters. But if I were to be giving advice to a new Christian I would rather they believe that they cannot turn back to their old ways and still expect to be saved by simply believing. That they must continue in their faith and continue to walk in the Spirit rather than give them a possible false sense of hope that no matter what they do they will still be saved.
 
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JLB777

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In that parable Jesus is not referring to "Christians" as Christians did not yet exist when he told the parable. Rather he said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." He was referring to people who identified with the God of Israel but who had yet to be saved through faith in Christ. So with regards to the status of those born of God, the parable doesn't apply. Likewise with regards to the parable of the prodigal son, who was also lost and is also in the same chapter.


I see, so now you are claiming that Jesus is teaching something that is obsolete to His disciples about sheep who wander away and become lost?

Your theory is rejected.


4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

The 99 were said by Jesus to be justified! They needed no repentance.

He was referring to Christians, not the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



Jesus is teaching His disciples what to do, if one of their brethren wanders away and becomes lost.


The first Gentile didn't receive the Gospel for 10 years, so the Church was made up of Jews for the first 10 years.



James teaches the same principle.


19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost is a sinner in need of repentance.




JLB
 
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FreeGrace2

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That is the big debate. Were those who have received the message, partaken of the Holy Spirit and later turn away from God really believers in the first place?
Both Jesus and Paul were quite clear about the reality that saved people can cease to believe. But neither of them gives such people a "pass" for doing so. The Bible is clear that those who become unfaithful and/or disobedient will be disciplined by God, which is, according to Heb 12:11, painful. So please don't make the mistake of thinking that I am defending such behavior. Not in the slightest.

The early church fathers taught that salvation could be lost.
Which is why we need to stay with Scripture and ignore the "common taters". What is clear from the writings of the "early church fathers" is that they completely lost the concept and meaning of "grace". That's why penance reared its ugly head early in church history.

I see some really strong evidence that appears to support both eternal salvation and the loss of salvation.
Then you're just "seeing things", because the Bible does teach in opposition to itself. When one is faced with "seeming" contradictory teachings in Scripture, the only solution is to find the most clearly stated position and believe that.

So if I must make a choice I would rather choose the path that is narrow and in line with the early church fathers.
Well, there you go. Ignoring Scripture and going with those who failed to understand grace.

Here's the very best (most clear) verse on eternal security, stated by Jesus Himself:

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. John 10:28

In this verse Jesus teaches the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

The red words clearly state the CAUSE of having eternal life, Jesus Christ Himself, who gives eternal life.

The blue words clearly state the EFFECT of having eternal life, which is never perishing.

What is clearly stated is that the EFFECT of being given eternal life is never perishing.

As long as I remain in Christ none of this debate really matters.
Since what Jesus said in John 10:28 is TRUE, the phrase "remain in Christ" isn't about the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit, per Eph 1:13,14, but rather being in fellowship with Him, in order to bear fruit, which is what John 15 is all about.

But if I were to be giving advice to a new Christian I would rather they believe that they cannot turn back to their old ways and still expect to be saved by simply believing.
That would only muddy the waters by introducing one's behavior or works in their salvation, which would be heretical and blasphemes the FINISHED work of Christ on their behalf.

Rather, one is saved by grace through faith, not by works (Eph 2:8,9) BUT disobedient children of God will be painfully punished (Heb 12:11). Now that's a balanced "advice".
 
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WordSword

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That is the big debate. Were those who have received the message, partaken of the Holy Spirit and later turn away from God really believers in the first place? The early church fathers taught that salvation could be lost.
If you're referring to the Papacy as the "Church Fathers," they did and do not have the same beliefs as the Apostles and early Christian church believers concerning redemption.

As long as I remain in Christ none of this debate really matters.
Amen, same here!
 
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BNR32FAN

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If you're referring to the Papacy as the "Church Fathers," they did and do not have the same beliefs as the Apostles and early Christian church believers concerning redemption.


Amen, same here!

No absolutely not. I’m referring to the early church fathers long before there ever was a pope. I agree the papacy created an entirely different church with entirely different teachings. I believe the Orthodox Church is the original apostolic Catholic Church.
 
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FreeGrace2

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No absolutely not. I’m referring to the early church fathers long before there ever was a pope.
Seriously, it wasn't all that "long before".

I agree the papacy created an entirely different church with entirely different teachings.
No, the RCC was the obvious outcome from the teachings of the "early church fathers".
 
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