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Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

FreeGrace2

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Concerning 'my'/the bibles doctrine of eternal security.

A believer cannot take the mark of the beast. So you will not get a 'yes' or 'no' answer from me.

Like you can't answer 'yes' or 'no' to," Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

You never have beaten your wife. A believer never will take the mark.
I don't know that we should assume any such thing. He won't answer, so it seems maybe he's hiding something.

I answered his question 3 times, but that seems not to satisfy him.

It's getting rather clear to me that his real goal is to prove that Jesus Christ LIED when He said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

And that's a whole lot more perverse than just beating his wife.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Here is what is clear -
  • If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12

JLB
Why do you keep assuming that "anyone" here includes believers?

I sure don't assume that you have stopped beating your wife. I'm just waiting for an answer to my question.

Now, do you remember that in one post you said "I don't beat my wife". OK. That shows that my question about whether you've stopped beating your wife was INVALID. There was a FALSE PREMISE.

And, I explained (only 3 times) that by the time the mark of the beast is being put on people, there will be no unfaithful believers around to take the mark.

So, how is my answer insufficient to your curious mind, but your answer seemed to be sufficient to you?

Could you at least explain that?

Since you obviously want to continue to assume that there will be believers who will take the mark of the beast (and thereby prove that Jesus Christ LIED in John 10:28), while shall I not continue to assume that you still beat your wife?

Could you at least explain that?
 
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JLB777

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No, you're not. You ALWAYS avoid dealing with any of my points.


Apparently not for you to answer my question, which is an excellent example of your question to me.


Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Simple answer: yes or no.

How come you are so persistent to try to prove that Jesus Christ LIED when He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish?

Your ridiculous answer assumes believers will take the mark. But if that were true, then Jesus would have LIED.

Would that make you happy?
JLB777 said:
Answer: I don't beat my wife.

Maybe the answer is really "no", which is why he won't answer the question. ;)


I see you are still avoiding the question.


I guess you don't really believe your own doctrine.



Now concerning your doctrine of OSAS,




If a born again Christian takes the mark of the beast and worships him, are they still saved?

Yes?
or
No?



JLB
 
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FreeGrace2

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I see you are still avoiding the question.
You are just amazing.

I guess you don't really believe your own doctrine.
I guess you are having a very difficult time trying to decipher anything that is posted

Now concerning your doctrine of OSAS,

If a born again Christian takes the mark of the beast and worships him, are they still saved?

Yes?
or
No?
Again, my answer to your bogus question is going to be the same as your answer to my bogus question.

While you said, "I do not beat my wife", which denies my assumption that you do, my answer to your bogus question is, "there will be no unfaithful believers by the time the mark of the beast is given", which denies your assumption that there will be any believers who will take the mark of the beast.

But I'm going to guess that you will not understand any of this, nor the significance of it.

I've answered EXACTLY as you did, but you just ignore reality.
 
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Gr8Grace

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I don't know that we should assume any such thing. He won't answer, so it seems maybe he's hiding something.

I answered his question 3 times, but that seems not to satisfy him.

It's getting rather clear to me that his real goal is to prove that Jesus Christ LIED when He said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

And that's a whole lot more perverse than just beating his wife.
Matt 13:15~~New International Version
For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

Ezekiel 12:2~~New American Standard Bible
"Son of man, you live in the midst of the rebellious house, who have eyes to see but do not see, ears to hear but do not hear; for they are a rebellious house.


Jeremiah 5:21~~New American Standard Bible
'Now hear this, O foolish and senseless people, Who have eyes but do not see; Who have ears but do not hear.

Isaiah 6:10~~New American Standard Bible
"Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed."

2 Tim 4:3New American Standard Bible
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
 
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bcbsr

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If a born again Christian takes the mark of the beast and worships him, are they still saved?

That kind of thing simply doesn't happen. Salvation by works Christians typically bring up irrelevant scenarios like that. Or propose "What if those born of God continue to live in sin?" It just doesn't happen. The Bible says so.

1John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

What about alleged "Christians" who fall away. This is how the apostle John analyzes that scenario:

1John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.
For if they had belonged to us,
(ONCE SAVED)
they would have remained with us; (ALWAYS SAVED)
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
 
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bcbsr

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Yes, your claim to John 10:28 has already been refuted, since you took the half of Jesus statement and lifted it out of the context, while ignoring the condition for receiving eternal life.
  • eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7
The "other half" says, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.", which is not a condition for salvation but a description of the saved. Typical of salvation by works Christians to add "in order to be saved" to verses which are simply describing a saved person.

And ironic bringing up Romans 2:7 (typical verse brought up by salvation by works Christians). For you do it out of context. If you actually read Rom 2:7 in context you would realize that Paul was talking about justification by law at that point. He speaks of performance based justification all the way up to the middle of chapter 3 where he transitions to the gospel of Grace:

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Rom 3:20-24
 
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FreeGrace2

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Matt 13:15~~New International Version
For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

Ezekiel 12:2~~New American Standard Bible
"Son of man, you live in the midst of the rebellious house, who have eyes to see but do not see, ears to hear but do not hear; for they are a rebellious house.


Jeremiah 5:21~~New American Standard Bible
'Now hear this, O foolish and senseless people, Who have eyes but do not see; Who have ears but do not hear.

Isaiah 6:10~~New American Standard Bible
"Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed."

2 Tim 4:3New American Standard Bible
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
These really do describe one side of this debate, huh. Thanks.
 
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BNR32FAN

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This OP is for attempting a combined participation from those who are desiring to know more about the permanency of faith and salvation. I am presenting a couple passages to attempt to initiate interest in others who might desire to list whatever passages they can find relating to this issue that we can analyze together. The reason for my interest in dealing more with this issue is due to the fact that I believe it is the most significant Bible doctrine related to spiritual growth in the “image of Christ.”

2Pet 2:20
“For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ . . .” They can obtain mental peace (escape) merely through knowing (but not understanding) Christ’s Gospel and acting in outward motions of false professions and works, but if they have not truly desired to be in His Gospel it will eventually manifest itself when “they are again entangled in them and overcome.”

2Pe 2:21
“For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.” This describes only “knowing the way,” but instead of following it they “turn from it,” and continue as they were.

This parallels Heb 10:26: “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth . . .” (Heb 10:26). Both of these passages are a description of one merely receiving the knowledge of the truth but not receiving the “truth.” In other words, choosing to continue as they were, even after becoming aware of “the truth,” but not choosing to receive and follow it.




A Couple Commentator Examples:

Albert Barnes (1798–1870):
“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world” - This does not necessarily mean that they had been true Christians, and had fallen from grace. People may outwardly reform, and escape from the open corruptions which prevail around them, or which they had themselves practiced, and still have no true grace at heart.

“Through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesses Christ” - Neither does this imply that they were true Christians, or that they had ever had any saving knowledge of the Redeemer. There is a knowledge of the doctrines and duties of religion which may lead sinners to abandon their outward vices, which has no connection with saving grace. They may profess religion, and may know enough of religion to understand that it requires them to abandon their vicious habits, and still never be true Christians.

“For it had been better for them …” It would have been better for them, for:

(1) Then they would not have dishonored the cause of religion as they have now done.

(2) They would not have sunk so deep in profligacy as they now have.

(3) They would not have incurred so aggravated a condemnation in the world of woe. If people are resolved on being wicked, they had better never pretend to be good. If they are to be cast off at last, it had better not be as apostates from the cause of virtue and religion.
2 Peter 2 Commentary - Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible


John Gill (1697–1771):
“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world....” The sins of it, the governing vices of it, which the men of the world are addicted to, and immersed in; for the whole world lies in wickedness, and which are of a defiling nature: the phrase is Rabbinical; it is said {q}, "he that studies not in the law in this world, but is defiled amle ypwnjb, "with the pollutions of the world," what is written of him? and they took him, and cast him without:" these, men may escape, abstain from, and outwardly reform, with respect unto, and yet be destitute of the grace of God; so that this can be no instance of the final and total apostasy of real saints; for the house may be swept and garnished with an external reformation; persons may be outwardly righteous before men, have a form of godliness and a name to live, and yet be dead in trespasses and sins; all which they may have

“Through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” The Vulgate Latin, and all the Oriental versions, read, our Lord, and the latter leave out, "and Savior"; by which "knowledge" is meant, not a spiritual experimental knowledge of Christ, for that is eternal life, the beginning, pledge, and earnest of it; but a notional knowledge of Christ, or a profession of knowledge of him, for it may be rendered "acknowledgment"; or rather the Gospel of Christ, which, being only notionally received, may have such an effect on men, as outwardly to reform their lives, at least in some instances, and for a while, in whose hearts it has no place.

“For it had been better for them....” Not that ignorance is good, or to be excused; but it would have been a lesser evil, and not so much aggravated:

Not to have known the way of righteousness; the same with "the way of truth," 2 Peter 2:2, and "the right way," 2 Peter 2:15, the Gospel, which points out the way and method of a sinner's justification before God, which is not by the works of the law, but by the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, and received by faith; and which teaches men to live soberly, righteously, and godly; and a large, notional, though not an experimental knowledge, these apostates had of the word and doctrine of righteousness, and indeed of the whole of the Christian religion, which may truly go by this name:

Than after they have known [it]; owned, embraced, and professed it:

To turn: the Vulgate Latin version, and some copies, as the Alexandrian and others, add, to that which is behind; to their former lusts, or errors, or worse, which they had turned their backs upon externally.

From the holy commandment delivered unto them; by the commandment is meant the Gospel also, see 2 Peter 3:2; called holy, because of its nature and influence, and in opposition to the pollutions of the world; and which is the faith once delivered, Jude 1:3, and which they received, as delivered to them; and, particularly, the ordinances of it, which they once submitted to, kept, and observed, as they were delivered to them, but now relinquished, or corrupted: wherefore, it would have been better for them to have been in their former ignorance, either in Judaism, or in Gentilism, since proportionate to a man's light is his guilt, and so his punishment, see Romans 2:12.
2 Peter 2 - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible - Bible Commentary

I think for the people who are walking in the Spirit it’s not really important to know if eternal security is true or not. I think it is more important that we realize this than being divided Christians.
 
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WordSword

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I think for the people who are walking in the Spirit it’s not really important to know if eternal security is true or not. I think it is more important that we realize this than being divided Christians.
Hi and thanks for your reply! I believe you make the most important issue, which is how we relate to one another! Everything in Christianity purposes this above all things, because it's the Lord's overall command (John 15:12).

How we relate to one another, "especially unto them who are of the household of faith"(Gal 6:10), is how we are practically relating to the Lord (1 John 4:20), regardless of how desirous we are to live by it!

One's understanding and belief concerning the permanency of faith and salvation cannot affect the receiving of salvation, but like all nonessential doctrine is does affect our spiritual growth in our faith.

God bless!
 
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BNR32FAN

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Hi and thanks for your reply! I believe you make the most important issue, which is how we relate to one another! Everything in Christianity purposes this above all things, because it's the Lord's overall command (John 15:12).

How we relate to one another, "especially unto them who are of the household of faith"(Gal 6:10), is how we are practically relating to the Lord (1 John 4:20), regardless of how desirous we are to live by it!

One's understanding and belief concerning the permanency of faith and salvation cannot affect the receiving of salvation, but like all nonessential doctrine is does affect our spiritual growth in our faith.

God bless!

Thank you for your kind reply my friend. I was thinking about what you said and I can’t seem to think of any situations that could arise from not taking a position on eternal security. Perhaps you can give some examples?
 
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WordSword

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Thank you for your kind reply my friend. I was thinking about what you said and I can’t seem to think of any situations that could arise from not taking a position on eternal security. Perhaps you can give some examples?
Do you mean reasons why not to take the position of eternal security?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Do you mean reasons why not to take the position of eternal security?

No I mean why is it important to our spiritual growth that we take a position on eternal security? Personally I prefer to remain neutral although in the past I have been more inclined to reject eternal security. Lately I’ve taken the position that it’s not worth debating because ultimately if a person is walking in the Spirit it is irrelevant if they believe in eternal security or not. I also believe the same about faith & works, purgatory and a few other debates. If we believe in Jesus and we walk in the Spirit everything else will just take care of itself.
 
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FreeGrace2

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No I mean why is it important to our spiritual growth that we take a position on eternal security? Personally I prefer to remain neutral although in the past I have been more inclined to reject eternal security. Lately I’ve taken the position that it’s not worth debating because ultimately if a person is walking in the Spirit it is irrelevant if they believe in eternal security or not. I also believe the same about faith & works, purgatory and a few other debates. If we believe in Jesus and we walk in the Spirit everything else will just take care of itself.
From your last sentence, it appears your view is that how one lives determines their security. Is that correct?
 
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JLB777

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That kind of thing simply doesn't happen. Salvation by works Christians typically bring up irrelevant scenarios like that. Or propose "What if those born of God continue to live in sin?" It just doesn't happen. The Bible says so.

1John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

What about alleged "Christians" who fall away. This is how the apostle John analyzes that scenario:

1John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.
For if they had belonged to us,
(ONCE SAVED)
they would have remained with us; (ALWAYS SAVED)
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.


You would have to completely ignore what Jesus taught about the subject to come to that conclusion.


Would you care to discuss the scriptures that pertain to this subject about departing from Christ during persecution and tribulation?


Do you know this person has already stated in an open forum that a born again Christian who takes the mark of the beast is still saved?


He has since been removed from that site which is why he is reluctant to make the same mistake.



JLB
 
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bcbsr

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You would have to completely ignore what Jesus taught about the subject to come to that conclusion.


Would you care to discuss the scriptures that pertain to this subject about departing from Christ during persecution and tribulation?


Do you know this person has already stated in an open forum that a born again Christian who takes the mark of the beast is still saved?


He has since been removed from that site which is why he is reluctant to make the same mistake.



JLB
Falling Away? John covers that in 1John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.
For if they had belonged to us,
(ONCE SAVED)
they would have remained with us; (ALWAYS SAVED)
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

I have ignored nothing. You just haven't listened.

But if you chose to ignore what John says, then realize he also says,
"We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us;
but whoever is not from God does not listen to us."
1John 4:6
 
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WordSword

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No I mean why is it important to our spiritual growth that we take a position on eternal security?
I've come to the understanding that those who still lack the understanding of the permanency of faith and salvation depend more on self-works as a basis to retain salvation, instead of depending on God to "complete it (work of salvation) until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil 1:6). This is depending on Him to "fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power" (2 Thes 1:11).
 
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BNR32FAN

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I've come to the understanding that those who still lack the understanding of the permanency of faith and salvation depend more on self-works as a basis to retain salvation, instead of depending on God to "complete it (work of salvation) until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil 1:6). This is depending on Him to "fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power" (2 Thes 1:11).

““I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. But if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted! When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father. “I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-10‬
 
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WordSword

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He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit ‬
I suppose it determines what we think Scripture means by "in Me." I've come to think it means all who profess to be in Him, which does not intend that all who profess Christ are in Christ. If they're not truly connected to the Vine they will not be a true part of Him, which are false professors, otherwise they would produce if they are connected to the Vine.

Presently I know of no Bible commentator that relate "in Me" to denote true unity with the Lord Jesus but rather describes that those who are unfruitful have not been connected with the Vine.
 
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OSAS 101

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I see you are still avoiding the question.


I guess you don't really believe your own doctrine.



Now concerning your doctrine of OSAS,




If a born again Christian takes the mark of the beast and worships him, are they still saved?

Yes?
or
No?



JLB
Now that's trying to predict the future
You should not tempt him.
that's a no no.
Shame on you.
 
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