Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

[WordSword]

This OP is for attempting a combined participation from those who are desiring to know more about the permanency of faith and salvation. I am presenting a couple passages to attempt to initiate interest in others who might desire to list whatever passages they can find relating to this issue that we can analyze together. The reason for my interest in dealing more with this issue is due to the fact that I believe it is the most significant Bible doctrine related to spiritual growth in the “image of Christ.”

2Pet 2:20
“For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ . . .” They can obtain mental peace (escape) merely through knowing (but not understanding) Christ’s Gospel and acting in outward motions of false professions and works, but if they have not truly desired to be in His Gospel it will eventually manifest itself when “they are again entangled in them and overcome.”

2Pe 2:21
“For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.” This describes only “knowing the way,” but instead of following it they “turn from it,” and continue as they were.

This parallels Heb 10:26: “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth . . .” (Heb 10:26). Both of these passages are a description of one merely receiving the knowledge of the truth but not receiving the “truth.” In other words, choosing to continue as they were, even after becoming aware of “the truth,” but not choosing to receive and follow it.




A Couple Commentator Examples:

Albert Barnes (1798–1870):
“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world” - This does not necessarily mean that they had been true Christians, and had fallen from grace. People may outwardly reform, and escape from the open corruptions which prevail around them, or which they had themselves practiced, and still have no true grace at heart.

“Through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesses Christ” - Neither does this imply that they were true Christians, or that they had ever had any saving knowledge of the Redeemer. There is a knowledge of the doctrines and duties of religion which may lead sinners to abandon their outward vices, which has no connection with saving grace. They may profess religion, and may know enough of religion to understand that it requires them to abandon their vicious habits, and still never be true Christians.

“For it had been better for them …” It would have been better for them, for:

(1) Then they would not have dishonored the cause of religion as they have now done.

(2) They would not have sunk so deep in profligacy as they now have.

(3) They would not have incurred so aggravated a condemnation in the world of woe. If people are resolved on being wicked, they had better never pretend to be good. If they are to be cast off at last, it had better not be as apostates from the cause of virtue and religion.
2 Peter 2 Commentary - Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible


John Gill (1697–1771):
“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world....” The sins of it, the governing vices of it, which the men of the world are addicted to, and immersed in; for the whole world lies in wickedness, and which are of a defiling nature: the phrase is Rabbinical; it is said {q}, "he that studies not in the law in this world, but is defiled amle ypwnjb, "with the pollutions of the world," what is written of him? and they took him, and cast him without:" these, men may escape, abstain from, and outwardly reform, with respect unto, and yet be destitute of the grace of God; so that this can be no instance of the final and total apostasy of real saints; for the house may be swept and garnished with an external reformation; persons may be outwardly righteous before men, have a form of godliness and a name to live, and yet be dead in trespasses and sins; all which they may have

“Through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” The Vulgate Latin, and all the Oriental versions, read, our Lord, and the latter leave out, "and Savior"; by which "knowledge" is meant, not a spiritual experimental knowledge of Christ, for that is eternal life, the beginning, pledge, and earnest of it; but a notional knowledge of Christ, or a profession of knowledge of him, for it may be rendered "acknowledgment"; or rather the Gospel of Christ, which, being only notionally received, may have such an effect on men, as outwardly to reform their lives, at least in some instances, and for a while, in whose hearts it has no place.

“For it had been better for them....” Not that ignorance is good, or to be excused; but it would have been a lesser evil, and not so much aggravated:

Not to have known the way of righteousness; the same with "the way of truth," 2 Peter 2:2, and "the right way," 2 Peter 2:15, the Gospel, which points out the way and method of a sinner's justification before God, which is not by the works of the law, but by the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, and received by faith; and which teaches men to live soberly, righteously, and godly; and a large, notional, though not an experimental knowledge, these apostates had of the word and doctrine of righteousness, and indeed of the whole of the Christian religion, which may truly go by this name:

Than after they have known [it]; owned, embraced, and professed it:

To turn: the Vulgate Latin version, and some copies, as the Alexandrian and others, add, to that which is behind; to their former lusts, or errors, or worse, which they had turned their backs upon externally.

From the holy commandment delivered unto them; by the commandment is meant the Gospel also, see 2 Peter 3:2; called holy, because of its nature and influence, and in opposition to the pollutions of the world; and which is the faith once delivered, Jude 1:3, and which they received, as delivered to them; and, particularly, the ordinances of it, which they once submitted to, kept, and observed, as they were delivered to them, but now relinquished, or corrupted: wherefore, it would have been better for them to have been in their former ignorance, either in Judaism, or in Gentilism, since proportionate to a man's light is his guilt, and so his punishment, see Romans 2:12.
2 Peter 2 - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible - Bible Commentary

 

[FreeGrace2]

While there are a number of Scriptures that "seemingly" indicate that salvation can be lost, Jesus Christ Himself made it very clear that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

In this verse, Jesus gives the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

The CAUSE of possessing eternal life is found in the red words "I give them eternal life".

The EFFECT of possessing eternal life is found in the blue words "and they shall never perish".

Also note that the 2 colored phrases are separated by "and", which is a connecting link between the 2 phrases.

Also note that there are no conditions listed or noted for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish.

If the Bible elsewhere teaches that believers (recipients of eternal life) must meet certain conditions in order to make it to heaven, then Jesus would have been compelled to include them in this very important verse.

So, after the red words "I give them eternal life", we would recognize any conditions by either of 2 ways:

1. "if". It would look like this: "I give them eternal life, and IF..."

2. "as long as". It would look like this: "and as long as..."

Since we find no such wording to indicate conditions to meet for recipients of eternal life, we are confident that there are no conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish.

So, on the basis of being given eternal life, the recipient will never perish.

This is exactly what Jesus said, and meant.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I am presenting a couple passages to attempt to initiate interest in others who might desire to list whatever passages they can find relating to this issue that we can analyze together.

I believe that I know why God wrote the scriptures in such a way that there are disagreements on these things.

"No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval." 1 Corinthians 11:19

As well as being instruction for His Church - the scriptures are a sort of test for His Church.

I believe that, if a person refuses or won't develop the skill to rightly divide the scriptures in a systematic way - there is ample room for anyone with a favorite opinion on a certain doctrine to give "proof texts" to supposedly support their case.

Just who is who will be determined by the Lord at the Judgment Seat of Christ (at least for those who make it that far).

A good systematic approach to this particular doctrine includes observations such as the following.

The examples given to support possible loss of salvation have a few possible explanations as to why they do not speak to loss of salvation. Among them is the fact that Peter was the Apostle to the Jews and addressed his letters to Jews in Babylon and Hebrews is, of course, written with Hebrews in mind.

I.e. - these are examples of Jews who have been given the truth and shown the truth through unmistakable miracles performed by God in their midst and yet have rejected the Messiah God provided for them and the type of steps necessary to receive salvation. They will not receive another chance. It's this or nothing but the judgment to come.

Further the idea that it is impossible to win a person who has professed Christ and then left Him to repentance flies in the face of several other scriptures which tell us how they can be won back to belief and obedience. That is not to even dwell long on the example of my own rocky faith in the early years of my walk.

These ideas are a hint that these scriptures may not speak to loss of salvation - even though on the surface they seem to.

Over against that kind of possible explanation - the example FreeGrace2 gave us can only be taken one way. There is no possible way to deal with that scripture but to take it exactly for what it says.

The bottom line is that, when looking at the overall picture of this doctrine in the scriptures, the hands down "winning side" of the debate is to believe in the eternal security of true believers.

Still - there are those who simply will not work through this doctrine in this kind of systematic way to find out the side and yield their preference to the side God has presented to be true when all is considered.

There are other pairings of scriptures dealing with ways of looking at this doctrine. They can all be dealt with in a similar manner.

I.e. - there are ways to "explain away" supposed all loss of salvation scriptures and none to explain eternal security scriptures but to receive them for what they say outright.

Again - this is a test. Who is approved will become evident when God sorts us all out.

 

[WordSword]

While there are a number of Scriptures that "seemingly" indicate that salvation can be lost, Jesus Christ Himself made it very clear that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

In this verse, Jesus gives the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

The CAUSE of possessing eternal life is found in the red words "I give them eternal life".

The EFFECT of possessing eternal life is found in the blue words "and they shall never perish".

Also note that the 2 colored phrases are separated by "and", which is a connecting link between the 2 phrases.

Also note that there are no conditions listed or noted for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish.

If the Bible elsewhere teaches that believers (recipients of eternal life) must meet certain conditions in order to make it to heaven, then Jesus would have been compelled to include them in this very important verse.

So, after the red words "I give them eternal life", we would recognize any conditions by either of 2 ways:

1. "if". It would look like this: "I give them eternal life, and IF..."

2. "as long as". It would look like this: "and as long as..."

Since we find no such wording to indicate conditions to meet for recipients of eternal life, we are confident that there are no conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish.

So, on the basis of being given eternal life, the recipient will never perish.

This is exactly what Jesus said, and meant.

Thanks FG2, and like the way you explained your comment. My intention for this OP is to show that even though Scripture, by the way it is sometimes worded, can appear to refute that you can loose your salvation, but on closer examination of them we see they actually do not support the concept of loosing salvation, as your post displays.

God's blessings to your Family!

 

[WordSword]

there are ways to "explain away" supposed all loss of salvation scriptures and none to explain eternal security scriptures but to receive them for what they say outright.

Thanks for your reply and comments MK, esp. the above, which you've shown to agree with FG2 concerning the passages that demonstrate the impossibility of loosing salvation.

God's blessings to your Family!

 

[amariselle]

I absolutely agree. Scripture is abundantly clear that true, saved, born again believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (as “purchased possessions) bought at a price (Christ’s sacrifice) and we will be raised on the last day. God is faithful who promised, and He will keep His promise.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Scripture is abundantly clear that true, saved, born again believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (as “purchased possessions) bought at a price (Christ’s sacrifice) and we will be raised on the last day. God is faithful who promised, and He will keep His promise.

Over several years now I have discussed this subject many times online. I have often been assaulted with the straw man argument that I and those like me are winking at or even condoning sin in the life of believers. This, of course, is not true.

The truth is that knowing that God will be faithful to deliver us finally from sin since we have been born again and become His children is a bigger motivator for a grateful and obedient life than threats of losing salvation ever could be.

Although I don’t believe that I have ever said anything which would cause someone to say that I was winking at sin – I do believe that my discussions have yielded ample evidence in many cases of a works based salvation on the other side.

The conversations usually start with reference to some scripture that seems to show possible loss of salvation. These are legitimate “proof texts” and worthy of respect for the person using them. But it is when the issue is pushed a little harder that problems with the person’s view of salvation in general often surface.

When the preposterous idea is talked about directly - of a sealing and resealing over and over again in our life by the Holy Spirit depending on our yielding to Him at a given time - is tackled, I usually find that they do not mean by “sealing” anywhere near what I (and God) mean.

Nor do many who question security believe that our coming to the Lord in the first place was because we were given to Him by the grace of God.

Further – I often find that the person rejects the scripture based doctrine that believers are even now seated with Christ in the heavenlies and ruling in the Kingdom of God according to their faith in His Word.

When pressed further on these concepts – I find that quite often the person really does not believe that anyone is presently saved. They believe instead that we will reach that state if and when we finish a successful sanctification.

Quite often I have found that the person is a necessary advocate of the idea of “soul sleep” rather “absent from the body, present with the Lord” as the scriptures teach.

In cutting this post short where much more could be said – I will say that all too often (but not always) those who reject eternal security suffer from a much deeper error – namely a works based gospel (which of course when all is said and done is no gospel at all).

Quite often the person discussing loss of salvation just hasn’t really thought through these kinds of issues or is not a very good “theologian”.

But, more often than not, they are not believing the gospel of our salvation and are following another gospel. Jesus is in their gospel to be sure. But it is really not the gospel at all.

Many will say to Him on that day, "Lord, Lord" and point to their works done in His name for a reason to be saved. But He will say to them that He "never" knew them because they had never rested in His work at Calvary as their only hope of salvation.

One needs to be very careful about making generalities about someone who disagrees with them on this issue. But this has been my considered experience in dealing with this doctrine in the forum.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thanks FG2, and like the way you explained your comment. My intention for this OP is to show that even though Scripture, by the way it is sometimes worded, can appear to refute that you can loose your salvation, but on closer examination of them we see they actually do not support the concept of loosing salvation, as your post displays.

God's blessings to your Family!

Thanks, WS. And may God bless your family!

 

[amariselle]

Over several years now I have discussed this subject many times online. I have often been assaulted with the straw man argument that I and those like me are winking at or even condoning sin in the life of believers. This, of course, is not true.

Unfortunately I have encountered the very same accusation, numerous times.

The truth is that knowing that God will be faithful to deliver us finally from sin since we have been born again and become His children is a bigger motivator for a grateful and obedient life than threats of losing salvation ever could be.

I couldn’t have said it better.

Although I don’t believe that I have ever said anything which would cause someone to say that I was winking at sin – I do believe that my discussions have yielded ample evidence in many cases of a works based salvation on the other side.

Yes, I’ve seen this as well.

The conversations usually start with reference to some scripture that seems to show possible loss of salvation. These are legitimate “proof texts” and worthy of respect for the person using them. But it is when the issue is pushed a little harder that problems with the person’s view of salvation in general often surface.

I agree.

When the preposterous idea is talked about directly - of a sealing and resealing over and over again in our life by the Holy Spirit depending on our yielding to Him at a given time - is tackled, I usually find that they do not mean by “sealing” anywhere near what I (and God) mean.

Yes, it is illogical to think believers are born again and sealed and then unborn and unsealed countless times during their earthly life.

Nor do many who question security believe that our coming to the Lord in the first place was because we were given to Him by the grace of God.

Yes. It is all by God’s grace, and we can take credit for none of it. Many do try to, however.

Further – I often find that the person rejects the scripture based doctrine that believers are even now seated with Christ in the heavenlies and ruling in the Kingdom of God according to their faith in His Word.

Which is very important to remember.

When pressed further on these concepts – I find that quite often the person really does not believe that anyone is presently saved. They believe instead that we will reach that state if and when we finish a successful sanctification.

I have found this to be true as well. The reality is that our sanctification is also a work of God, by the Spirit. He is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

Quite often I have found that the person is a necessary advocate of the idea of “soul sleep” rather “absent from the body, present with the Lord” as the scriptures teach.

I haven’t really had many conversations on this topic, though I agree. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

In cutting this post short where much more could be said – I will say that all too often (but not always) those who reject eternal security suffer from a much deeper error – namely a works based gospel (which of course when all is said and done is no gospel at all).

I absolutely agree.

Quite often the person discussing loss of salvation just hasn’t really thought through these kinds of issues or is not a very good “theologian”.

But, more often than not, they are not believing the gospel of our salvation and are following another gospel. Jesus is in their gospel to be sure. But it is really not the gospel at all.

Many will say to Him on that day, "Lord, Lord" and point to their works done in His name for a reason to be saved. But He will say to them that He "never" knew them because they had never rested in His work at Calvary as their only hope of salvation.

Yes, that is also important. He never tells anyone He used to know them, but that He never knew them.

One needs to be very careful about making generalities about someone who disagrees with them on this issue. But this has been my considered experience in dealing with this doctrine in the forum.

It has been my experience as well.

 

[WordSword]

I absolutely agree. Scripture is abundantly clear that true, saved, born again believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (as “purchased possessions) bought at a price (Christ’s sacrifice) and we will be raised on the last day. God is faithful who promised, and He will keep His promise.

Hi Ama, and thanks for the instructional reply:

“The very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He that calleth you, who also will do it” (1 Thes 5:23, 24).

God bless!

 

[Ron Gurley]

SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

 

[WordSword]

SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

Amen!

 

[bcbsr]

This OP is for attempting a combined participation from those who are desiring to know more about the permanency of faith and salvation. I am presenting a couple passages to attempt to initiate interest in others who might desire to list whatever passages they can find relating to this issue that we can analyze together. The reason for my interest in dealing more with this issue is due to the fact that I believe it is the most significant Bible doctrine related to spiritual growth in the “image of Christ.”

2Pet 2:20
“For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ . . .” They can obtain mental peace (escape) merely through knowing (but not understanding) Christ’s Gospel and acting in outward motions of false professions and works, but if they have not truly desired to be in His Gospel it will eventually manifest itself when “they are again entangled in them and overcome.”

2Pe 2:21
“For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.” This describes only “knowing the way,” but instead of following it they “turn from it,” and continue as they were.

This parallels Heb 10:26: “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth . . .” (Heb 10:26). Both of these passages are a description of one merely receiving the knowledge of the truth but not receiving the “truth.” In other words, choosing to continue as they were, even after becoming aware of “the truth,” but not choosing to receive and follow it.




A Couple Commentator Examples:

Albert Barnes (1798–1870):
“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world” - This does not necessarily mean that they had been true Christians, and had fallen from grace. People may outwardly reform, and escape from the open corruptions which prevail around them, or which they had themselves practiced, and still have no true grace at heart.

“Through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesses Christ” - Neither does this imply that they were true Christians, or that they had ever had any saving knowledge of the Redeemer. There is a knowledge of the doctrines and duties of religion which may lead sinners to abandon their outward vices, which has no connection with saving grace. They may profess religion, and may know enough of religion to understand that it requires them to abandon their vicious habits, and still never be true Christians.

“For it had been better for them …” It would have been better for them, for:

(1) Then they would not have dishonored the cause of religion as they have now done.

(2) They would not have sunk so deep in profligacy as they now have.

(3) They would not have incurred so aggravated a condemnation in the world of woe. If people are resolved on being wicked, they had better never pretend to be good. If they are to be cast off at last, it had better not be as apostates from the cause of virtue and religion.
2 Peter 2 Commentary - Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible


John Gill (1697–1771):
“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world....” The sins of it, the governing vices of it, which the men of the world are addicted to, and immersed in; for the whole world lies in wickedness, and which are of a defiling nature: the phrase is Rabbinical; it is said {q}, "he that studies not in the law in this world, but is defiled amle ypwnjb, "with the pollutions of the world," what is written of him? and they took him, and cast him without:" these, men may escape, abstain from, and outwardly reform, with respect unto, and yet be destitute of the grace of God; so that this can be no instance of the final and total apostasy of real saints; for the house may be swept and garnished with an external reformation; persons may be outwardly righteous before men, have a form of godliness and a name to live, and yet be dead in trespasses and sins; all which they may have

“Through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” The Vulgate Latin, and all the Oriental versions, read, our Lord, and the latter leave out, "and Savior"; by which "knowledge" is meant, not a spiritual experimental knowledge of Christ, for that is eternal life, the beginning, pledge, and earnest of it; but a notional knowledge of Christ, or a profession of knowledge of him, for it may be rendered "acknowledgment"; or rather the Gospel of Christ, which, being only notionally received, may have such an effect on men, as outwardly to reform their lives, at least in some instances, and for a while, in whose hearts it has no place.

“For it had been better for them....” Not that ignorance is good, or to be excused; but it would have been a lesser evil, and not so much aggravated:

Not to have known the way of righteousness; the same with "the way of truth," 2 Peter 2:2, and "the right way," 2 Peter 2:15, the Gospel, which points out the way and method of a sinner's justification before God, which is not by the works of the law, but by the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, and received by faith; and which teaches men to live soberly, righteously, and godly; and a large, notional, though not an experimental knowledge, these apostates had of the word and doctrine of righteousness, and indeed of the whole of the Christian religion, which may truly go by this name:

Than after they have known [it]; owned, embraced, and professed it:

To turn: the Vulgate Latin version, and some copies, as the Alexandrian and others, add, to that which is behind; to their former lusts, or errors, or worse, which they had turned their backs upon externally.

From the holy commandment delivered unto them; by the commandment is meant the Gospel also, see 2 Peter 3:2; called holy, because of its nature and influence, and in opposition to the pollutions of the world; and which is the faith once delivered, Jude 1:3, and which they received, as delivered to them; and, particularly, the ordinances of it, which they once submitted to, kept, and observed, as they were delivered to them, but now relinquished, or corrupted: wherefore, it would have been better for them to have been in their former ignorance, either in Judaism, or in Gentilism, since proportionate to a man's light is his guilt, and so his punishment, see Romans 2:12.
2 Peter 2 - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible - Bible Commentary

The following is my take on the 2Peter 2 verses from my study guide

Overcome by the World

2Peter 2:20,21 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

There are those who come to Christ simply to reform their behavior. Those he is speaking of here are not those who know the Lord personally, but rather those who know about the Lord. The word "know" here (or "knowledge") is "epignosis" in the greek. While the more general and more commonly used term for knowledge is "gnosis", "epignosis" is a more specific type of gnosis. "epi" is a greek preposition which means "around". And thus the "epidermis" is the skin which goes around the body. Thus it means to know about something rather than knowing someone personally.

They do have personal experience in trying to live the Christian life, compliance to the Lord's command. (For in that respect the word "gnosis" is used in verse 21). But they fail to live up to it, as they have not come to know Jesus personally and thus have not been born of God and so the Christian life is unnatural to them. They fall back into sinful addictions, being overcome. But of those born of God it is written,"everyone born of God overcomes the world." 1John 5:4a

How can they be worse off, having fallen away? Before they were going to hell, and having known and fallen away they end up with the same fate. So what is different? The more you know, the more you will be held accountable for. Jesus said, "That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."Luke 12:47,48

Unregenerate

2Peter 2:22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

The first is found in Pr 26:11 "As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly." The reason why a dog returns to his vomit because that's its nature. The reason a pig goes back to wallowing in the mud is because that's its nature. Christians who do so indicate by such behavior that they had not been born again. For "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." 2Cor 5:17 But rather as John said, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19 For "we know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin." 1John 5:18a

 

[FreeGrace2]

The following is my take on the 2Peter 2 verses from my study guide

Overcome by the World

2Peter 2:20,21 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

There are those who come to Christ simply to reform their behavior. Those he is speaking of here are not those who know the Lord personally, but rather those who know about the Lord. The word "know" here (or "knowledge") is "epignosis" in the greek. While the more general and more commonly used term for knowledge is "gnosis", "epignosis" is a more specific type of gnosis. "epi" is a greek preposition which means "around". And thus the "epidermis" is the skin which goes around the body. Thus it means to know about something rather than knowing someone personally.

They do have personal experience in trying to live the Christian life, compliance to the Lord's command. (For in that respect the word "gnosis" is used in verse 21). But they fail to live up to it, as they have not come to know Jesus personally and thus have not been born of God and so the Christian life is unnatural to them. They fall back into sinful addictions, being overcome. But of those born of God it is written,"everyone born of God overcomes the world." 1John 5:4a

How can they be worse off, having fallen away? Before they were going to hell, and having known and fallen away they end up with the same fate. So what is different? The more you know, the more you will be held accountable for. Jesus said, "That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."Luke 12:47,48

Unregenerate

2Peter 2:22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

The first is found in Pr 26:11 "As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly." The reason why a dog returns to his vomit because that's its nature. The reason a pig goes back to wallowing in the mud is because that's its nature. Christians who do so indicate by such behavior that they had not been born again. For "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." 2Cor 5:17 But rather as John said, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19 For "we know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin." 1John 5:18a

This seems like another "explaining away" of a passage. The beginning of v.20 seems clear that Peter is referring to believers: "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ".

The Greek word "epignosis" indicates a more deeper knowledge than the word "gnosis".

So, how do we understand what "worse off at the end" means? Does it refer to eternity? How can it, since Peter had already written 1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

So he couldn't be referring to eternity as "the end". Further, there is no end of eternity, so that would be silly of him to use those words in reference to after this life on earth. It's certainly not the "end" of anyone who enters eternity. Annihilationism is wrong.

So, we understand "the end" to refer to the end of their lives, here on earth. iow, because of God's divine discipline, they will suffer more for having "become tangled in it and overcome". Their end here on earth will be worse for them.

So there is no reason to understand this passage as being about unbelievers who only knew "about" the Lord.

They are believers and this is a direct warning against becoming again entangled in the world and being overcome by it.

 

[tdidymas]

While there are a number of Scriptures that "seemingly" indicate that salvation can be lost, Jesus Christ Himself made it very clear that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

In this verse, Jesus gives the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

The CAUSE of possessing eternal life is found in the red words "I give them eternal life".

The EFFECT of possessing eternal life is found in the blue words "and they shall never perish".

Also note that the 2 colored phrases are separated by "and", which is a connecting link between the 2 phrases.

Also note that there are no conditions listed or noted for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish.

If the Bible elsewhere teaches that believers (recipients of eternal life) must meet certain conditions in order to make it to heaven, then Jesus would have been compelled to include them in this very important verse.

So, after the red words "I give them eternal life", we would recognize any conditions by either of 2 ways:

1. "if". It would look like this: "I give them eternal life, and IF..."

2. "as long as". It would look like this: "and as long as..."

Since we find no such wording to indicate conditions to meet for recipients of eternal life, we are confident that there are no conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish.

So, on the basis of being given eternal life, the recipient will never perish.

This is exactly what Jesus said, and meant.

The opposing camp will always respond with: But there is a precedential condition - faith. Jesus said "whoever hears... and believes..." Not only this, the kind of believing that Jesus is talking about is the same kind in which He says "He who hears My words and observes to do them..." Therefore there is a certain condition which must be met.

My point is this, the controversy (namely soteriology) is all about whether saving faith is a gift of God or not. There are 3 categories of claims in this matter:
1. Faith is the gift of God, and is effectual to the salvation of the individual.
2. Faith is the gift of God, but is weak in the sense that it can be resisted and killed outright.
3. Faith is not the gift of God, but the "work" of an individual.

If one is in the #1 camp, then OSAS is easy. But if in one of the other camps, all bets are off. Therefore I believe this is where the controversy begins, is who causes faith in Christ, and who makes it effectual, and who causes it to persist. And further, an even more precedential idea is Total Depravity. Camp #1 assumes it, whereas camp #3 does not, because this idea is about whether or not any individual is able, on his own without any help from God, to make a right decision or not (or even understand what is being preached) - in regard to the gospel. If one doubts Total Depravity, they will doubt that faith must be a gift of God, and will then doubt OSAS.

IMO if a person has right doctrine in this regard, then they will be able to see clearly about where they are directing their faith in all situations, whether they pass or fail tests.
TD

 

[FreeGrace2]

The opposing camp will always respond with: But there is a precedential condition - faith. Jesus said "whoever hears... and believes..." Not only this, the kind of believing that Jesus is talking about is the same kind in which He says "He who hears My words and observes to do them..." Therefore there is a certain condition which must be met.

My point is this, the controversy (namely soteriology) is all about whether saving faith is a gift of God or not. There are 3 categories of claims in this matter:
1. Faith is the gift of God, and is effectual to the salvation of the individual.
2. Faith is the gift of God, but is weak in the sense that it can be resisted and killed outright.
3. Faith is not the gift of God, but the "work" of an individual.

The issue is settled by what the Bible says, or not says. Where does the Bible tell us that faith is a gift? Many will respond with "Eph 2:8". But does the verse say that? No, it doesn't. It does say that our salvation is a gift of God, just as Rom 6:23 says that "the gift of God is eternal life".

Both salvation and eternal life are synonymous, as one cannot have one without the other.

If one is in the #1 camp, then OSAS is easy. But if in one of the other camps, all bets are off. Therefore I believe this is where the controversy begins, is who causes faith in Christ, and who makes it effectual, and who causes it to persist. And further, an even more precedential idea is Total Depravity. Camp #1 assumes it, whereas camp #3 does not, because this idea is about whether or not any individual is able, on his own without any help from God, to make a right decision or not (or even understand what is being preached) - in regard to the gospel. If one doubts Total Depravity, they will doubt that faith must be a gift of God, and will then doubt OSAS.

Again, what does the Bible say, or not say about this issue? There is no evidence at all that man is unable to believe in Jesus Christ. In fact, Paul's entire mission as an evangelist was to PERSUADE men to believe. Why would he have even tried if men are unable? And why would he try to persuade men if God is the One who causes people to believe?

And since the Bible DOES teach that Jesus Christ died for all (2 Cor 5:14,15, Heb 2:9, 1 John 2:2), why would God cause only some to believe? Or the better question, why would Jesus Christ die for all if God wasn't going to choose all to believe?

IMO if a person has right doctrine in this regard, then they will be able to see clearly about where they are directing their faith in all situations, whether they pass or fail tests.
TD

I'm not sure what is being assumed or claimed by "where one's faith is directed". Please clarify.

Thanks.

 

[Butch5]

This OP is for attempting a combined participation from those who are desiring to know more about the permanency of faith and salvation. I am presenting a couple passages to attempt to initiate interest in others who might desire to list whatever passages they can find relating to this issue that we can analyze together. The reason for my interest in dealing more with this issue is due to the fact that I believe it is the most significant Bible doctrine related to spiritual growth in the “image of Christ.”

2Pet 2:20
“For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ . . .” They can obtain mental peace (escape) merely through knowing (but not understanding) Christ’s Gospel and acting in outward motions of false professions and works, but if they have not truly desired to be in His Gospel it will eventually manifest itself when “they are again entangled in them and overcome.”

2Pe 2:21
“For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.” This describes only “knowing the way,” but instead of following it they “turn from it,” and continue as they were.

This parallels Heb 10:26: “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth . . .” (Heb 10:26). Both of these passages are a description of one merely receiving the knowledge of the truth but not receiving the “truth.” In other words, choosing to continue as they were, even after becoming aware of “the truth,” but not choosing to receive and follow it.




A Couple Commentator Examples:

Albert Barnes (1798–1870):
“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world” - This does not necessarily mean that they had been true Christians, and had fallen from grace. People may outwardly reform, and escape from the open corruptions which prevail around them, or which they had themselves practiced, and still have no true grace at heart.

“Through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesses Christ” - Neither does this imply that they were true Christians, or that they had ever had any saving knowledge of the Redeemer. There is a knowledge of the doctrines and duties of religion which may lead sinners to abandon their outward vices, which has no connection with saving grace. They may profess religion, and may know enough of religion to understand that it requires them to abandon their vicious habits, and still never be true Christians.

“For it had been better for them …” It would have been better for them, for:

(1) Then they would not have dishonored the cause of religion as they have now done.

(2) They would not have sunk so deep in profligacy as they now have.

(3) They would not have incurred so aggravated a condemnation in the world of woe. If people are resolved on being wicked, they had better never pretend to be good. If they are to be cast off at last, it had better not be as apostates from the cause of virtue and religion.
2 Peter 2 Commentary - Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible


John Gill (1697–1771):
“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world....” The sins of it, the governing vices of it, which the men of the world are addicted to, and immersed in; for the whole world lies in wickedness, and which are of a defiling nature: the phrase is Rabbinical; it is said {q}, "he that studies not in the law in this world, but is defiled amle ypwnjb, "with the pollutions of the world," what is written of him? and they took him, and cast him without:" these, men may escape, abstain from, and outwardly reform, with respect unto, and yet be destitute of the grace of God; so that this can be no instance of the final and total apostasy of real saints; for the house may be swept and garnished with an external reformation; persons may be outwardly righteous before men, have a form of godliness and a name to live, and yet be dead in trespasses and sins; all which they may have

“Through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” The Vulgate Latin, and all the Oriental versions, read, our Lord, and the latter leave out, "and Savior"; by which "knowledge" is meant, not a spiritual experimental knowledge of Christ, for that is eternal life, the beginning, pledge, and earnest of it; but a notional knowledge of Christ, or a profession of knowledge of him, for it may be rendered "acknowledgment"; or rather the Gospel of Christ, which, being only notionally received, may have such an effect on men, as outwardly to reform their lives, at least in some instances, and for a while, in whose hearts it has no place.

“For it had been better for them....” Not that ignorance is good, or to be excused; but it would have been a lesser evil, and not so much aggravated:

Not to have known the way of righteousness; the same with "the way of truth," 2 Peter 2:2, and "the right way," 2 Peter 2:15, the Gospel, which points out the way and method of a sinner's justification before God, which is not by the works of the law, but by the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, and received by faith; and which teaches men to live soberly, righteously, and godly; and a large, notional, though not an experimental knowledge, these apostates had of the word and doctrine of righteousness, and indeed of the whole of the Christian religion, which may truly go by this name:

Than after they have known [it]; owned, embraced, and professed it:

To turn: the Vulgate Latin version, and some copies, as the Alexandrian and others, add, to that which is behind; to their former lusts, or errors, or worse, which they had turned their backs upon externally.

From the holy commandment delivered unto them; by the commandment is meant the Gospel also, see 2 Peter 3:2; called holy, because of its nature and influence, and in opposition to the pollutions of the world; and which is the faith once delivered, Jude 1:3, and which they received, as delivered to them; and, particularly, the ordinances of it, which they once submitted to, kept, and observed, as they were delivered to them, but now relinquished, or corrupted: wherefore, it would have been better for them to have been in their former ignorance, either in Judaism, or in Gentilism, since proportionate to a man's light is his guilt, and so his punishment, see Romans 2:12.
2 Peter 2 - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible - Bible Commentary

There's no need to dance around these passages. Jesus stated plainly that some believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Discussion over. Jesus has the final word.

 

[tdidymas]

The issue is settled by what the Bible says, or not says. Where does the Bible tell us that faith is a gift? Many will respond with "Eph 2:8". But does the verse say that? No, it doesn't. It does say that our salvation is a gift of God, just as Rom 6:23 says that "the gift of God is eternal life".

Both salvation and eternal life are synonymous, as one cannot have one without the other.

It depends on how you read it, based on what soteriology you believe in. The way I read Eph. 2:8 is that when he says "it is the gift of God" he is talking about the whole package, saved-grace-faith. These cannot be divided as a partial package, as if you could have one without the other. Saved by grace through faith - it is a simultaneous event, and this event is said to be the gift of God. Therefore, as the salvation is the gift of God, and (obviously) grace is the gift of God, so also is faith the gift of God, as it is part of the same event. So then, I claim that it does say that faith is the gift of God. It is a matter of exegeting that meaning from the context of the whole NT.

Other passages concur, such as:
Phil. 1:29 - we are granted by God to believe. Not everyone is granted this.
Rom. 12:3 - God allots faith to us
2 Pet. 1:1 - we have received a faith given by God
1 Cor. 1:30 - we are in Christ by God's doing, including the faith necessary to be in Christ
John 6:29 - faith is the work of God, not men

1 Cor. 12 says that faith is a gift of the Spirit. Granted it is talking about a faith that goes beyond the ordinary. But how can anyone think that ordinary faith is obtained some different way, as if an individual could generate his own faith apart from God's action in him? I say that even this extraordinary faith being a gift of the Spirit is the same faith that is given to Christians to believe in Christ.

This is how I read the scripture. I believe that faith is the gift of God.

Again, what does the Bible say, or not say about this issue? There is no evidence at all that man is unable to believe in Jesus Christ. In fact, Paul's entire mission as an evangelist was to PERSUADE men to believe. Why would he have even tried if men are unable? And why would he try to persuade men if God is the One who causes people to believe?

And since the Bible DOES teach that Jesus Christ died for all (2 Cor 5:14,15, Heb 2:9, 1 John 2:2), why would God cause only some to believe? Or the better question, why would Jesus Christ die for all if God wasn't going to choose all to believe?

In 1 Cor. 2 and Rom. 8 Paul explains that individuals in their natural state (not born again) cannot believe the gospel as it is taught in the NT. He uses this kind of language:
"does not receive the things of the Spirit" (the gospel)
"neither can he understand" (can't believe)
"mind set on the flesh" (not believing)
"cannot please God" (not having faith)
This language is in the context of faith in Christ being the righteous act that pleases God, as he also says that faith is that obedience to God's calling - Rom. 1:5.

These statements of Paul are based on Jesus' claim in John 6:65 that "no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father" which speaks of a divine imposition that must take place in individuals before they can exhibit faith in the gospel message. I say that divine imposition is rebirth. "The wind blows where it wills" - IOW, it is God's choice.

The verses you quote (2 Cor 5:14,15, Heb 2:9, 1 John 2:2) do not prove that Christ died for every individual everywhere and for all time, as this modification of the term "all" is an imposition on the scripture. Since the usage of the term "all" in the context determines its scope, therefore the scope of "all" is the church, since it is the audience of these epistles. In 1 Jn. 2, the "kosmos" is equivalent to men everywhere, and implies potential propitiation as opposed to actual. Rev. 5:9 is clear that the blood of Christ purchased some individuals and not everyone.

I'm not sure what is being assumed or claimed by "where one's faith is directed". Please clarify.

Thanks.

If you believe that you have a say in your eternal destiny, that it is in your hands, then your faith is directed toward yourself. Even if you claim that God determines your destiny in cooperation with your "free will" to choose it (or to stay in it), your faith is partially directed toward yourself. If you believe that God is author and completer of your personal faith in Christ, then your faith is fully directed toward Him, seeing that your eternal destiny in totally in His hands. This is what I mean by "where one's faith is directed." It is which direction the trust is going.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

This seems like another "explaining away" of a passage. The beginning of v.20 seems clear that Peter is referring to believers: "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ".

The Greek word "epignosis" indicates a more deeper knowledge than the word "gnosis".

So, how do we understand what "worse off at the end" means? Does it refer to eternity? How can it, since Peter had already written 1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

So he couldn't be referring to eternity as "the end". Further, there is no end of eternity, so that would be silly of him to use those words in reference to after this life on earth. It's certainly not the "end" of anyone who enters eternity. Annihilationism is wrong.

So, we understand "the end" to refer to the end of their lives, here on earth. iow, because of God's divine discipline, they will suffer more for having "become tangled in it and overcome". Their end here on earth will be worse for them.

So there is no reason to understand this passage as being about unbelievers who only knew "about" the Lord.

They are believers and this is a direct warning against becoming again entangled in the world and being overcome by it.

Nice try, but look at the context of the "they" which he is referring to:
v. 19 "they themselves are slaves of corruption"
v. 17 "These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved."
He is talking about the false teachers who come into the midst of the churches. The writers of all the epistles assume that the churches contain true and false believers, based on the wheat and tares parable. "Not everyone who calls Me 'Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven." There are both true and fake Christians in the churches today as it also was back then. Therefore, these kinds of warnings lead us true believers into a deeper introspection about our identity in Christ, as Peter also calls us to make certain of our calling and election in 2 Pet. 1:10.
TD

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"The issue is settled by what the Bible says, or not says. Where does the Bible tell us that faith is a gift? Many will respond with "Eph 2:8". But does the verse say that? No, it doesn't. It does say that our salvation is a gift of God, just as Rom 6:23 says that "the gift of God is eternal life".

Both salvation and eternal life are synonymous, as one cannot have one without the other."

It depends on how you read it, based on what soteriology you believe in.

It certainly does depend on one's bias (how you read it). But my comments were about what the Bible actually says. My "bias" is determined by the words of the Bible.

The way I read Eph. 2:8 is that when he says "it is the gift of God" he is talking about the whole package, saved-grace-faith.

Those with training in Greek inform me that the genitive for "it" is the same (feminine) as the genitive for "saved". I would agree that 'faith' as a noun would be a gift of God, since God gave us His Word.

However, it seems to me that most who claim "faith is a gift" do so in the sense of a verb, and mean that those who believe do so because God gave them the ability to believe. Meaning, of course, that He doesn't give many that gift. But if that were true, then the FACT that Jesus died for all would be meaningless.

These cannot be divided as a partial package, as if you could have one without the other. Saved by grace through faith - it is a simultaneous event, and this event is said to be the gift of God. Therefore, as the salvation is the gift of God, and (obviously) grace is the gift of God, so also is faith the gift of God, as it is part of the same event. So then, I claim that it does say that faith is the gift of God. It is a matter of exegeting that meaning from the context of the whole NT.

Other passages concur, such as:
Phil. 1:29 - we are granted by God to believe. Not everyone is granted this.

Since Christ died for all, it should be obvious that everyone has the ability to believe. In fact, this is proved by the fact that Paul tried to persuade men to believe. Why would he even bother if the determinant of who believes is God Himself? And again, why did Jesus die for all if not all were able to believe in the first place?

Rom. 12:3 - God allots faith to us

This is in context of spiritual gifts; not related to unbelievers.

2 Pet. 1:1 - we have received a faith given by God

As a noun. His word.

1 Cor. 1:30 - we are in Christ by God's doing, including the faith necessary to be in Christ

Being "in Christ" is fully explained in Eph 1:13,14. The key is that those "having believed" are sealed. The believing precedes the sealing. Your comment is opposite to that.

John 6:29 - faith is the work of God, not men

Not what the text says. In context, the Jews asked Jesus what God requires for eternal life. Note that the Jews were works oriented and thought being good would get them into heaven (law keeping). What God requires for eternal life is to believe in Christ.

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 Cor. 12 says that faith is a gift of the Spirit. Granted it is talking about a faith that goes beyond the ordinary. But how can anyone think that ordinary faith is obtained some different way, as if an individual could generate his own faith apart from God's action in him? I say that even this extraordinary faith being a gift of the Spirit is the same faith that is given to Christians to believe in Christ.

1 Cor 12 is about spiritual gifts, not related or relevant for unbelievers.

In 1 Cor. 2 and Rom. 8 Paul explains that individuals in their natural state (not born again) cannot believe the gospel as it is taught in the NT. He uses this kind of language:
"does not receive the things of the Spirit" (the gospel)
"neither can he understand" (can't believe)
"mind set on the flesh" (not believing)
"cannot please God" (not having faith)
This language is in the context of faith in Christ being the righteous act that pleases God, as he also says that faith is that obedience to God's calling - Rom. 1:5.

We always have to consult the context for every verse, in order to understand what they mean.

Re:
"does not receive the things of the Spirit" does NOT refer to "the gospel" but the "deep things" of God, which is deeper and advanced doctrines. Something that even immature and baby Christians cannot understand. Heb 5:12.

"neither can he understand" also refers to the "deep things of God", which are for the "mature" believer. 1 Cor 1.

"mind set on the flesh" is also a problem for believers, so isn't relevant.

"cannot please God" is true of believers who fail to trust God in every situation. Just like the Exodus generation. 1 Cor 10:1-5.

These statements of Paul are based on Jesus' claim in John 6:65 that "no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father" which speaks of a divine imposition that must take place in individuals before they can exhibit faith in the gospel message. I say that divine imposition is rebirth. "The wind blows where it wills" - IOW, it is God's choice.

Don't forget to read John 6:44 AND 45. v.45 explains who comes to Jesus: those who have listened and learned from the Father. And the verse tells us that God has taught all. So no one has any excuse about "not being chosen" to believe.

The verses you quote (2 Cor 5:14,15, Heb 2:9, 1 John 2:2) do not prove that Christ died for every individual everywhere and for all time, as this modification of the term "all" is an imposition on the scripture.

Here's how to determine how to handle the word "all". ONLY IF there is a condition or description IN the verse or immediate context that defines exactly who ONLY are the "all", we can be assured that "all" means just that, everyone.

And all 3 verses I quoted have NO SUCH QUALIFIERS to limit "all" to any smaller group than everyone in the human race.

But I invite you to show me in either 2 Cor 5 or Heb 2 where you see any such qualifiers that would limit the scope of "all".

Since the usage of the term "all" in the context determines its scope, therefore the scope of "all" is the church, since it is the audience of these epistles.

Not true. This is merely an attempt to limit the scope. If Jesus died for all, when a writer of Scripture was telling saved congregations who He died for, would simply say He died for all.

Your limitation is artificial.

In 1 Jn. 2, the "kosmos" is equivalent to men everywhere, and implies potential propitiation as opposed to actual.

This is an opinion which is not supported by the very words in the verse. John says that Jesus died not only for "us", which means believers, but for the "whole world".

Trying to force only saved people into "whole world" would be quite a feat.

Rev. 5:9 is clear that the blood of Christ purchased some individuals and not everyone.

No, it's not at all clear. What is clear is that Jesus died for all, everyone. And verses that plainly say so. And no context to limit "all" to less than everyone.

If you believe that you have a say in your eternal destiny, that it is in your hands, then your faith is directed toward yourself.

First, to be clear, I'm NO Arminian. My faith is directed SOLELY and ONLY toward the Lord Jesus Christ, who died for me and saves me on the basis of my faith IN HIM.

But regarding your comment about "having a say in my eternal destiny", what is your opinion of the Philippian jailer who asked this question:
He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” Acts 16:30

And how do you explain Paul's answer:
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” v.31

The jailer clearly wanted to be saved and asked what he MUST DO to be saved.
Paul's answer clearly stated that he must believe in order to be saved.

Even if you claim that God determines your destiny in cooperation with your "free will" to choose it (or to stay in it), your faith is partially directed toward yourself.

I believe that it is God's plan ONLY that He will save those who believe. In fact, Scripture says this.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

If you believe that God is author and completer of your personal faith in Christ, then your faith is fully directed toward Him

No, I don't believe this, because the Bible never says any of this.

What the Bible does say is that God is the author and completer of my SALVATION.

seeing that your eternal destiny in totally in His hands.

It is. For sure.

This is what I mean by "where one's faith is directed." It is which direction the trust is going.
TD

The ONLY direction of faith that is saving is when it is toward Jesus Christ.