Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[Dave L]

very thoughtful & insightful !

The key word is "reigned".

From Christ onwards, believers -- initially relatively few in number -- were a spiritual "nation of Priests".

During the Millennium, believers -- many many in number -- become a spiritual "nation of Priests"... in charge of society & culture.

The only difference is "reigned".

Same Church of Christ at the core... it just grows & grows until it takes




"leaving no Church on earth for Satan to attack" -- very astute observation!

I think we're agreeing -- Armageddon vs. Babylon (1 city) and the defeat of the Beast (1 empire) occur before the Christian Millennium, whereas Gog & Magog arise afterwards

The Church ebbs & flows, rises & retreats... but a remnant is prophesied to survive through to The End on Final Judgement Day before the arrived Great White Throne.

The big error the Dispies and Premills make is in thinking the 1000 years is the kingdom reign of Christ. But in scripture it instead depicts the complete binding of Satan during the New Covenant era by the gospel. And Satan attacking the church with his lies when loosed in a post Christian era such as today. "Armageddon" is the end of the world.

 

[Erik Nelson]

You are then place the fulfillment of verse 24 during 70 AD? Surely the times of the Gentiles were not fulfilled at that time. IMO verse 24 needs to be taken in a spiritual sense since it is meaning Revelation 11:2 for one.

pagan legions sacked Jerusalem in 70 AD and planted pagan temples there until Constantine & Helena in the 4th century

Almost 250 years of "being trodden under pagan gentiles" fits & fulfills the Prophecy

 

[Biblewriter]

Notice I'm presenting obstacles to the Premillennial position. This is not what scripture teaches. Since Paul places the kingdom ending on earth, and continuing in the new heavens and earth on the Last day, the premillennialists have a problem of fitting all that happens after Satan is loosed into the last day. Gog, Magog, Armageddon, the attack on the church etc.

Another huge problem stems from the resurrection and rapture on the last day, leaving no church on earth for Satan to attack. There's more but it is a very buggy system if you look at it along side of the rest of the end time scriptures.

The "bugs" in the system are all imaginary, stemming entirely out of the flawed interpretive system used to generate them.

 

[Biblewriter]

The big error the Dispies and Premills make is in thinking the 1000 years is the kingdom reign of Christ. But in scripture it instead depicts the complete binding of Satan during the New Covenant era by the gospel. And Satan attacking the church with his lies when loosed in a post Christian era such as today. "Armageddon" is the end of the world.

Anyone who imagines that Satan is currently bound has his eyes firmly shut.

 

[Dave L]

The "bugs" in the system are all imaginary, stemming entirely out of the flawed interpretive system used to generate them.

Revelation 20 disproves Premillennialism and Dispensatioalism. Paul says Christ delivers the kingdom up to the Father at the resurrection and rapture. Other scriptures say this happens on the last day.

 

[Dave L]

Anyone who imagines that Satan is currently bound has his eyes firmly shut.

The gospel binds Satan. Jesus cast out demons did he not? But the rest of the world is under God's wrath, and Satan carries it out according to God's plan. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them. John 3:36

 

[Erik Nelson]

The big error the Dispies and Premills make is in thinking the 1000 years is the kingdom reign of Christ. But in scripture it instead depicts the complete binding of Satan during the New Covenant era by the gospel. And Satan attacking the church with his lies when loosed in a post Christian era such as today. "Armageddon" is the end of the world.

think we agree completely, in broad brush strokes

Would like to know why we'd want to apply Armageddon to The End of Earth, and not to the earlier destruction of "Babylon" ?

The "Armageddon" reference in Rev 16 is tightly sandwiched between the 6th and 7th bowls of Wrath, which explicitly reference the "Euphrates" (=river of "Babylon") and the fall of "Babylon".

Moreover, meanwhile, the same reference mentions the Beast and False Prophet who are defeated by Christianity in Rev 19 and thrown into the Lake of Fire at the start of the Millennium in Rev 20. The Beast & False Prophet are still alive at Armageddon => Armageddon precedes the Millennium.

You could let me slide Armageddon back to the fall of "Babylon" without sacrificing any of your real argument. "Gog & Magog" is still more than enough Demonic influence to account for your comprehension of our present place in Prophesy.

 

[Dave L]

think we agree completely, in broad brush strokes

Would like to know why we'd want to apply Armageddon to The End of Earth, and not to the earlier destruction of "Babylon" ?

The "Armageddon" reference in Rev 16 is tightly sandwiched between the 6th and 7th bowls of Wrath, which explicitly reference the "Euphrates" (=river of "Babylon") and the fall of "Babylon".

Moreover, meanwhile, the same reference mentions the Beast and False Prophet who are defeated by Christianity in Rev 19 and thrown into the Lake of Fire at the start of the Millennium in Rev 20. The Beast & False Prophet are still alive at Armageddon => Armageddon precedes the Millennium.

You could let me slide Armageddon back to the fall of "Babylon" without sacrificing any of your real argument. "Gog & Magog" is still more than enough Demonic influence to account for your comprehension of our present place in Prophesy.

I'll need to look into it. I was using Armageddon as a buzz word for the end of the world that many would understand. I follow the recapitulation view of Revelation and find 7 ends of the world throughout. One or more might be Armageddon, but I need to look at it again.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Revelation 20 disproves Premillennialism and Dispensatioalism. Paul says Christ delivers the kingdom up to the Father at the resurrection and rapture. Other scriptures say this happens on the last day.

think I understand your argument...

"the Kingdom" began with Christ in about 33 AD... and Scripture says the very same Kingdom of Christ will continue and endure all the way through to The End of Earth at some "Biblically soon" time in the future

and yet also meanwhile too, that "Kingdom" of believers as a spiritual "nation of Priests" does ebb & flow, growing & shrinking to & from (respectively) the Millennium.

That "Kingdom" only reigns over society during the Millennium.

• Before that, it was "small and growing" and not (yet) in power.
• After that, it is "small & shrinking" and not (any longer) in power.

But, the "Kingdom" began with Christ (1 person), and a remnant endures through to The End (a few thousand or million or even billion persons???).

• Kingdom != reign
• The Kingdom can be, or not be, dominant in society... Christians can be, or not be, the socially dominant majority in society...
• at least a few Christians there will always be...
• hence the Kingdom will always be...
• but it began as a minor fringe movement...
• and may end up as one once again...
• before Final Judgement at the End of Earth at the arrival of the Great White Throne

 

[Dave L]

think I understand your argument...

"the Kingdom" began with Christ in about 33 AD... and Scripture says the very same Kingdom of Christ will continue and endure all the way through to The End of Earth at some "Biblically soon" time in the future

and yet also meanwhile too, that "Kingdom" of believers as a spiritual "nation of Priests" does ebb & flow, growing & shrinking to & from (respectively) the Millennium.

That "Kingdom" only reigns over society during the Millennium.

• Before that, it was "small and growing" and not (yet) in power.
• After that, it is "small & shrinking" and not (any longer) in power.

But, the "Kingdom" began with Christ (1 person), and a remnant endures through to The End (a few thousand or million or even billion persons???).

• Kingdom != reign
• The Kingdom can be, or not be, dominant in society... Christians can be, or not be, the socially dominant majority in society...
• at least a few Christians there will always be...
• hence the Kingdom will always be...
• but it began as a minor fringe movement...
• and may end up as one once again...
• before Final Judgement at the End of Earth at the arrival of the Great White Throne

This would be the Postmillennial view. But it has a problem of making the the Church control physical earthly kingdoms. The kingdom is purely spiritual and not of this world.

 

[DavidPT]

pagan legions sacked Jerusalem in 70 AD and planted pagan temples there until Constantine & Helena in the 4th century

Almost 250 years of "being trodden under pagan gentiles" fits & fulfills the Prophecy

You then conclude we are no longer in the times of the Gentiles, thus the times of the Gentiles has been entirely fulfilled?

 

[Erik Nelson]

Revelation 20 disproves Premillennialism and Dispensatioalism. Paul says Christ delivers the kingdom up to the Father at the resurrection and rapture. Other scriptures say this happens on the last day.

think I understand your argument...

"the Kingdom" began with Christ in about 33 AD... and Scripture says the very same Kingdom of Christ will continue and endure all the way through to The End of Earth at some "Biblically soon" time in the future

and yet also meanwhile too, that "Kingdom" of believers as a spiritual "nation of Priests" does ebb & flow, growing & shrinking to & from (respectively) the Millennium.

That "Kingdom" only reigns over society during the Millennium.

• Before that, it was "small and growing" and not (yet) in power.
• After that, it is "small & shrinking" and not (any longer) in power.

But, the "Kingdom" began with Christ (1 person), and a remnant endures through to The End (a few thousand or million or even billion persons???).

• Kingdom != reign
• The Kingdom can be, or not be, dominant in society... Christians can be, or not be, the socially dominant majority in society...
• at least a few Christians there will always be...
• hence the Kingdom will always be...
• but it began as a minor fringe movement...
• and may end up as one once again...
• before Final Judgement at the End of Earth at the arrival of the Great White Throne

 

[Erik Nelson]

You then conclude we are no longer in the times of the Gentiles, thus the times of the Gentiles has been entirely fulfilled?

well, sure, why not ?

 

[Erik Nelson]

This would be the Postmillennial view. But it has a problem of making the the Church control physical earthly kingdoms. The kingdom is purely spiritual and not of this world.

think I understand your point...

Perhaps one might rebut with "not directly"...

and surely not the world of Pilate & Caesar in the time of Christ when he spoke those words...

but the Lord's Prayer invokes the Kingdom of Heaven onto earth...

in the Millennium, long after Christ, God's Will is done on earth as in heaven...

the spiritual Kingdom "conquers" (converts) the pagan physical empire (Rev 19)

So, the spiritual Kingdom can still ebb & flow to the forefront of society for a "Biblical day"

as a Christian's bodily flesh is guided by the Holy Spirit, so a Christian society could be controlled by the Holy Spirit... (even as I recall St. Paul numerous times advocates)

such that the physical would be ruled by the spiritual

 

[keras]

It is a difference that does not exist, if you understand astronomy.

A blood moon occurs during a full moon when the moon is normally at its brightest. In the matter of a few hours the earth's shadow passes over the moon blocking the sun's light and darkening the moon. The reddening effect is due to a change in the amount of light and factors in how light is filtered in our atmosphere.

Therefore, during a blood moon the moon is darkened.

It is a difference that DOES exist, if you understood Bible prophecy!!!!
You constantly show that you don't live up to your avatar; a Berean who carefully studies scripture.

Isaiah 30:26a The moon will shine a brightly as the sun and the sun seven times brighter than usual, like seven days in one...… This is in the context of the Lord's Day of wrath, the Sixth Seal.
A Day that will come unexpectedly; as a thief, quite different and years before the Glorious Return.

There is much confusion here and I attribute a lot of it to a lack of knowledge of what God actually does plan for His people in the end times.
The Bible prophets have told us what will happen; firstly, there will be a sudden devastation - mainly centered on the Middle East, but will affect all the world. Luke 21:25-26 & 34-35, Isaiah 66:15-17, Zephaniah 1:14-18, 2 Peter 3:7
The world will recover and form an One World Govt, but the Lord will gather His own people into all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26, …..
Psalms 107 and Isaiah 66:18b-21 describe how every faithful believer will be gathered.

We really don't need to know much more than those truths for now, as after we are settled into the holy Land, the Lord will remove the veil of hidden-ness over His plans and we will truly understand. Isaiah 43:8, Isaiah 42:18-20, Jeremiah 3:15

 

[Biblewriter]

Revelation 20 disproves Premillennialism and Dispensatioalism. Paul says Christ delivers the kingdom up to the Father at the resurrection and rapture. Other scriptures say this happens on the last day.

This is only true if 75% of all Bible prophecy is false.

 

[BABerean2]

It is a difference that DOES exist, if you understood Bible prophecy!!!!
You constantly show that you don't live up to your avatar; a Berean who carefully studies scripture.

I do understand how a blood moon is produced, since astronomy was a part of the curriculum that I used to teach, and the fact that I have observed blood moons with a telescope.

I also know the difference between fire produced by the Son, and fire produced by the sun.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

How about you?

You belittle yourself when you put down another member of this forum, because they do not agree with you.

.

 

[keras]

I do understand how a blood moon is produced, since astronomy was a part of the curriculum that I used to teach, and the fact that I have observed blood moons with a telescope.

I also know the difference between fire produced by the Son, and fire produced by the sun.

I thought this was a Bible prophecy forum? How does classroom astronomy rebut Bible truths?
As what is prophesied to happen, is so far beyond any previous sun explosion; such as the Carrington event, then we have to rely on the very comprehensive and detailed Bible prophecies. To force them all into the Return, is a bad error and leaves you unaware of this forthcoming world changer. Isaiah 61:2b
Please address the plain statements of Isaiah 30:26a, also verses 25, 27 and 30

It is obvious to anyone without preconceived blinkers that the descriptions of Jesus' glorious Return in. Zechariah 14:3-7, Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 19:11-21, is not the same Day as His Day of wrath by fire.

 

[BABerean2]

I thought this was a Bible prophecy forum? How does classroom astronomy rebut Bible truths?

The truth is the truth.

The same God that wrote the Bible created the sun, earth, moon, and stars.
He also created the laws of physics that govern them.

Those same laws have shown your lunar thermite theory to be in error.

2Al + Fe2O3 -------> Al2O3 + 2Fe

The reaction requires pure Aluminum and pure Iron Oxide to produce the thermite reaction, which produces Aluminum Oxide and Iron.

.

 

[keras]

The truth is the truth.

The same God that wrote the Bible created the sun, earth, moon, and stars.
He also created the laws of physics that govern them.

Those same laws have shown your lunar thermite theory to be in error.

2Al + Fe2O3 -------> Al2O3 + 2Fe

The reaction requires pure Aluminum and pure Iron Oxide to produce the thermite reaction, which produces Aluminum Oxide and Iron. .

So you prefer to believe simple chemical reactions, over what the Bible prophets tell us.
Isaiah 30:26 The light of the moon will be as the light of the sun.....
Revelation 6:12b....and the moon as red as blood.
These are plain statements; have you a textbook reason how this could happen?