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Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

What is Peter looking for in the verse above?
I suppose that depends on what the new heaven and earth are symbolizing......
Hebrews explains it quite nicely to the converted Hebrew Jews,

it is heavenly kingdom w/o a Temple and Sanctuary under the OC Mosaic system.......

Hebrews 12:
25 See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” 27 This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made

in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, 29 for our God is a consuming fire.


Hebrew 12:18
For not ye have come toward to being handled a mountain, and to having been kindled to fire and to murkiness and to darkness and to tempest.


The removal of the OC of law and flesh:

Revelation 8:8
And the second Messenger trumpets and as-like a mountain, great to fire burning, was cast into the Sea and became the third of the Sea blood [Matthew 21:21/Galatian 4:24, 25/Hebrew 12:18]
 
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Riberra

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Yes, there will definitely be the "wrath" of a holy God poured out, yet BEFORE then, the devil will be running rampant and evil will increase, unbearably, such as is happening right now throughout the world. Lawlessness, lovers of their own selves, loving the darkness, etc.

This is as described in His Word.
You think that Jesus can return at any time to take you out of this World...even if Jesus give us the season when He will come as a thief in Revelation 16:15-17 ?

Revelation 16:15-17

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame. 16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-magedon.

17 And the seventh poured out his bowl upon the air; and there came forth a great voice out of the temple, from the throne, saying, It is done:
 
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brinny

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You think that Jesus can return at any time to take you out of this World...even if Jesus give us the season when He will come as a thief in Revelation 16:15-17 ?

Pardon?

I'm sharing what is in His Word, that He Himself said.

Did He not say that?
 
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Riberra

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Pardon?

I'm sharing what is in His Word, that He Himself said.

Did He not say that?
Show us the Bible verses where Jesus SAID that He will take the Believers OUT OF this World to avoid tribulation(s) be it small or GREAT ?
 
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brinny

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Show us the Bible verses where Jesus SAID that He will take the Believers OUT OF this World to avoid tribulation(s) be it small or GREAT ?

Did i say that?

Where'd you get that from?

Not from me.

I don't "fill in the blanks" of what the Bible says.

Is that what you did?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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Riberra said:
You think that Jesus can return at any time to take you out of this World...even if Jesus give us the season when He will come as a thief in Revelation 16:15-17 ?
Pardon?

I'm sharing what is in His Word, that He Himself said.

Did He not say that?
Show us the Bible verses where Jesus SAID that He will take the Believers OUT OF this World to avoid tribulation(s) be it small or GREAT ?
Did i say that?
Where'd you get that from?
Not from me.
I don't "fill in the blanks" of what the Bible says.
Is that what you did?
Oh my goodness......must we start into the "rapture" doctrine again.

There is already a "plethora" of threads on that topic.


https://www.google.com/search?q=the...cAhUNKawKHav5A4AQrQIINCgEMAA&biw=1366&bih=603
the+rapture+christian+forums+ About 3,590 results

 
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Riberra

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Did i say that?

Where'd you get that from?

Not from me.

I don't "fill in the blanks" of what the Bible says.

Is that what you did?
Do you interpret -coming as a thief- as meaning that Jesus can come at any moment to take you out of this World ?
If so you have been fooled.

The proof
Revelation 16:15-17 give us THE SEASON when Jesus will COME AS A THIEF.
 
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brinny

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Do you interpret -coming as a thief- as meaning that Jesus can come at any time to take you out of this World ?
If so you have been fooled.

The proof
Revelation 16:15-17 give us THE SEASON when Jesus will COME AS A THIEF.

I'm merely posting what He Himself stated. What He does before or after that is what He will do, but i do not wrap it up in a timeline of my own choosing. He never said when that will be, but He DID say that it would be as a thief in the night. What HE also said is that we need to be "ready", like the virgins with their lamps full.

So let's shine on, brother, with those lamps full of oil, amen?
 
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Riberra

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I'm merely posting what He Himself stated. What He does before or after that is what He will do, but i do not wrap it up in a timeline of my own choosing. He never said when that will be, but He DID say that it would be as a thief in the night. What HE also said is that we need to be "ready", like the virgins with their lamps full.

So let's shine on, brother, with those lamps full of oil, amen?
So you don't take into account ABOUT the CONTEXT OF His Coming As A Thief cited in the Book of Revelation ..you prefer to believe that He can come at any moment before that ?
Revelation 16:15-17
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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Did i say that?
Where'd you get that from?
Not from me.
I don't "fill in the blanks" of what the Bible says.
Is that what you did?
Do you interpret -coming as a thief- as meaning that Jesus can come at any moment to take you out of this World ?
If so you have been fooled. The proof
Revelation 16:15-17 give us THE SEASON when Jesus will COME AS A THIEF.
Could you please discuss that on my "rapture" thread and perhaps also vote ? Thanks.

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...17-showing-in-revelation-if-so-where.8073710/
Is the Rapture of 1Thess 4:17 showing in Revelation? If so, where?
Discuss please..........

1Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
 
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brinny

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So you don't take into account ABOUT the CONTEXT OF His Coming As A Thief cited in the Book of Revelation ..you believe that He can come at any moment before that ?
Revelation 16:15-17

Never said that. It is not given to us the time or date.

Is it?
 
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Riberra

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Never said that. It is not given to us the time or date.

Is it?
The season is given ...
NOT BEFORE THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON
Revelation 16:15-17
15 (Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame.) 16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-magedon.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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claninja

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As to those verb tenses in relation to reigning with Christ a thousand years, they tend to tell me that they got over the beast in the past, and because they did, they then are rewarded with reigning with Christ a thousand years.

The verb tenses are all aorist indicative active:
Revelation 20:4 and those who had not worshiped (aorist indicative active) the beast or its image and had not received (aorist indicative active) its mark on their foreheads or their hands and they lived (aorist indicative active) and reigned (aorist indicative active) with Christ for a thousand years.
These who did not worship the beast or receive the mark, lived and reigned with Christ. This is the 1st resurrection.
Revelation 20:5 This is the first resurrection
The 1st resurrection is when the believers are priests of God and Christ
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
The believers in Peter and John's day were already a kingdom of priests
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood,
Revelation 1:6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father,
Revelation 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reignb on the earth.” (notice the b, which indicates some manuscripts state 'they reign').
Thus the 1st resurrection (born again) was already happening in Peter and John's day.

And since these would initially be physically dead, that reigning with Christ only makes sense if reigning with Christ on the earth

You are assuming that John is seeing the physical resurrected souls living and reigning, in their new spiritual bodies, with Christ in in a future tense on earth. However the verb tenses tell another story. John is seeing the souls of those having been beheaded (perfect participle) for the testimony of Jesus and those who did not worship (past tense) the beast, did not take (past tense) its mark, who lived (past tense) and reigned (past tense) with Christ.

The only way that is possible at that point, Christ eventually returns, thus the 2nd coming, which in turn leads to the first resurrection, where they then reign with Christ on the earth a thousand years.

I disagree, the believers in Peter and John's day were already a royal, kingdom of priests. This was before the coming of Christ:
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood,
Revelation 1:6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father,
Revelation 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reignb on the earth.” (notice the b, which indicates some manuscripts state 'they reign' which is presently, not just in the future).

Which leads me to believe that being born again is the first resurrection, as those born again pass from death to life and are a new creation, as well as a kingdom of priests. Does the 2nd death have power over those born again? No.

Otherwise that places their reigning with Him a thousand years in heaven instead, which makes no logical nor Scriptural sense.

I agree that they are reigning on earth:

Luke 10:19 have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.
John 14:12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father

I believe that all those who receive Gods gift of righteousness reign in life through Christ.
Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
 
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Dave L

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Even if that were the case, it still wouldn't matter.

In that other post, that was assuming the thousand years are meaning in this age, thus fulfilled prior to the 2nd coming. Per that scenerio, the analogy I used, the 1970's would be meaning the thousand years. The end coming in 2018 would be meaning at the end of satan's little season. If in 2018 the end comes but wouldn't be meaning it comes during the 1970s, in the same way, if the end comes at the end of satan's little season, the end didn't come during the thousand years instead. This still assuming a position that sees the fulfillment of the thousand years and satan's little season occurring in this age rather than the next age after Christ has returned.

It doesn't matter which age these things are fulfilled in though. In neither case can the end be during the thousand years itself. satan and those that join him, they are cast into the LOF after satan's little season, and not during the thousand years instead. Except for the beast and false prophet. They are cast into the LOF at the beginning of the thousand years, or maybe shortly before it initially begins. Premil is the only position that can work with that scenario though. Think about it. Where is satan during the thousand years? Is he not in the pit? How then can he get cast into the LOF during the thousand years? How can the end possibly occur during the thousand years then? It can't.
You make the mistake of interpreting the clearly revealed scriptures with the obscure. You must make Revelation conform to the rest of the NT. And not make the rest of the NT conform to it.

The day of the Lord includes all that follows Christ's rule. Everything.
 
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Dave L

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That is hilariously ridiculous ,,
Peter would not say -
be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

if he did not have justifiable reason to say it
this is typical when people don't like what scripture says !
You either ignore it which you repeatedly do - then you try to nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition
if Peter did not mean what he said - he could simply left it out and said Jesus will do things according to his own desire and there would be no reason to speak of a thousand years - there is no reason to think that it was a common thing to say , it nullifys your doctrine and THAT is why you don't accept it- you're not fooling anyone
That was not the point Peter was making. He is using it as an example to quell the nervousness of those who think he became slack in his promises.
 
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BABerean2

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I suppose that depends on what the new heaven and earth are symbolizing......
Hebrews explains it quite nicely to the converted Hebrew Jews,

it is heavenly kingdom w/o a Temple and Sanctuary under the OC Mosaic system.......

Hebrews 12:
25 See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” 27 This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made

in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, 29 for our God is a consuming fire.


Hebrew 12:18
For not ye have come toward to being handled a mountain, and to having been kindled to fire and to murkiness and to darkness and to tempest.


The removal of the OC of law and flesh:

Revelation 8:8
And the second Messenger trumpets and as-like a mountain, great to fire burning, was cast into the Sea and became the third of the Sea blood [Matthew 21:21/Galatian 4:24, 25/Hebrew 12:18]

Paul gives our final destination below, and contrasts it with earthly Jerusalem.

Gal 4:25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—
Gal 4:26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The author of the Book of Hebrews reveals the same thing.

Heb 11:15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.


Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

New Jerusalem is not just some imaginary place.
It is just as real as anything on this rotten, sin-cursed world.
It is our final destination when Christ returns to make all things right.
It will be the restitution of the way things were supposed to be, before the fall of Adam and Eve.


.

 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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You make the mistake of interpreting the clearly revealed scriptures with the obscure.
You must make Revelation conform to the rest of the NT. And not make the rest of the NT conform to it.

The day of the Lord includes all that follows Christ's rule. Everything.
Don't forget about conforming to the Hebrew OT also :oldthumbsup:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/allusions-in-revelation-from-old-testament.7588850/
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament

Ezekiel 8:3
He stretched out the form of a hand, and took me by a lock of my hair; and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven, and brought me in visions of God to Jerusalem,
to the door of the north gate of the inner court, where the seat of the image of jealousy was, which provokes to jealousy. [Revelation 17:3]


Revelation 17:3
and he carried me away to a wilderness in the Spirit, and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet-coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy,
having seven heads and ten horns, [Ezekiel 8:3]

THE SYMBOLISM IN BOOK OF REVELATION

One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament.
You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source!
That's IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.

95 of the 348 plain references used in Revelation as taken from the Old Testament are repeated in Revelation.
That makes about 250 Old Testament passages are cited. How many chapters are in Revelation? 22. That makes about TEN OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES FOR EVERY CHAPTER!
 
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Riberra

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Paul gives our final destination below, and contrasts it with earthly Jerusalem.

Gal 4:25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—
Gal 4:26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The author of the Book of Hebrews reveals the same thing.

Heb 11:15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.


Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

New Jerusalem is not just some imaginary place.
It is just as real as anything on this rotten, sin-cursed world.
It is our final destination when Christ returns to make all things right.
It will be the restitution of the way things were supposed to be, before the fall of Adam and Eve.


.
When do you expect to be allowed to enter New Jerusalem ?

Surely not before New Jerusalem the City of God will come down on the New Earth Revelation 21 is clear about it.

The New Heaven and New Earth is cited to occurs ONLY AFTER THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT [Revelation 20:11-15]....THUS AFTER THE 1,000 years reign of Jesus...WHEN JESUS WILL DELIVER THE KINGDOM TO HIS FATHER.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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Paul gives our final destination below, and contrasts it with earthly Jerusalem.

Gal 4:25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—
Gal 4:26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The author of the Book of Hebrews reveals the same thing.

Heb 11:15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.


Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

New Jerusalem is not just some imaginary place.
It is just as real as anything on this rotten, sin-cursed world.
It is our final destination when Christ returns to make all things right.
It will be the restitution of the way things were supposed to be, before the fall of Adam and Eve.


.
When do you expect to be allowed to enter New Jerusalem ?

Surely not before New Jerusalem the City of God will come down on the New Earth Revelation 21 is clear about it.
I suppose the NJ will just have to be set on top of the smoking Old Jerusalem?

Reve 19:3
And a second-time they have declared "allelouia!
and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages".
 
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