Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[Riberra]

I suppose the NJ will just have to be set on top of the Old Jerusalem?

Reve 19:3
And a second-time they have declared "allelouia!
and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages".

New Jerusalem the City Of God WILL DESCEND ON THE NEW EARTH Revelation 21
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more.

2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven of God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

----

4... the first things are passed away.

 

[BABerean2]

When do you expect to be allowed to enter New Jerusalem ?

Surely not before New Jerusalem the City of God will come down on the New Earth Revelation 21 is clear about it.

The New Heaven and New Earth is cited to occurs ONLY AFTER THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT [Revelation 20:11-15]....THUS AFTER THE 1,000 years reign of Jesus...WHEN JESUS WILL DELIVER THE KINGDOM TO HIS FATHER.

If my heart stops beating before the Second Coming of Christ, I would expect that to be my destination...

...or if I survive till the Second Coming, at Revelation 11:15-18, when "the time of the judgment of the dead" occurs, with reward for the saints.

I hope that does not hurt your feelings, if it does not fit your premill doctrine.

I still love you, Brother.

.

.

 

[Riberra]

If my heart stops beating before the Second Coming of Christ, I would expect that to be my destination...

...or if I survive till the Second Coming, at Revelation 11:15-18, when "the time of the judgment of the dead" occurs, with reward for the saints.

I hope that does not hurt your feelings, if it does not fit your premill doctrine.

I still love you, Brother.

The reward for the Prophets and the Saints [note]The Prophets have all been killed and The Saints as well ] is that they will be the first to be resurrected ,their reward will be to reign with Jesus during 1,000 years Revelation 20:4-6

if you are still alive UNTO THE COMING OF Jesus and you have not taken the mark nor worshiped the Beast and his image you will be part of it.


The rest of the dead good or bad will be Judged at the Great White Throne Judgment 1,000 years later...those whose names are written in the Book of Life will enter New Jerusalem who will descend on the New Earth [Revelation 21]....the others will go into the lake of fire.

If only you had read Revelation 20 you should known this by now ..

 

[BABerean2]

If only you had read Revelation 20 you should known this by now ..

You are correct.

If I only read Revelation 20, and nothing else, I might agree with you.

If I skipped over 2 Timothy 4:1, and Revelation 11:15-18, then I might also accept the premill doctrine...

.

 

[Riberra]

You are correct.

If I only read Revelation 20, and nothing else, I might agree with you.

If I skipped over 2 Timothy 4:1, and Revelation 11:15-18, then I might also accept the premill doctrine...

.

The reward for the Prophets and the Saints is clearly defined in Scripture, it is Revelation 20:4-6

The Judgment of the rest of the Dead [GOOD or BAD] not part of the First Resurrection is clearly defined in Scripture ,,, to happen 1,000 years later
Revelation 20:5
5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.

Do you agree that the Prophets have ALL BEEN KILLED ?

The Saints share something with the Prophets to be part of the same group who will be rewarded.... They have been slain for their testimony and for the Word of God.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[BABerean2]

The reward for the Prophets and the Saints is clearly defined in Scripture, it is Revelation 20:4-6

The Judgment of the rest of the Dead [GOOD or BAD] not part of the First Resurrection is clearly defined in Scripture ,,, to happen 1,000 years later.

Do you agree that the Prophets have ALL BEEN KILLED ?

The Saints share something with the Prophets to be part of the same group who will be rewarded.... They have been slain for their testimony and the Word of God.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.

 

[Riberra]

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 11:18 is about A list of things to do ...the Book of Revelation continue after Revelation 11:18 to tell us the order of these things .

Example :The Judgment of those who will be alive on the Earth at that moment ,will depend on their decision to take the mark and worship the Beast and his image OR NOT...Think about it.

And the Nations were angry ----> set the scene for what will be yet to come....

 

[BABerean2]

Revelation 11:18 is about A list of things to do ...the Book of Revelation continue after Revelation 11:18 to tell us the order of these things .

Example :The Judgment of those who will be alive on the Earth at that moment ,will depend on their decision to take the mark and worship the Beast and his image OR NOT...Think about it.

And the Nations were angry ----> set the scene for what will be yet to come....

I thought you had learned something about blood moons in Revelation chapter 6, but apparently not.

You are still trying to make the premill doctrine work...

.

 

[Riberra]

I thought you had learned something about blood moons in Revelation chapter 6, but apparently not.

I remember ...you believe that the 6Th Seal is about the Day of the Coming of Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 ...Is that right ?

You are still trying to make the premill doctrine work...

Can you define exactly what the premill doctrine claim ?

Note: I am not from any Protestant denomination.

-I am only a humble messenger [born on this Earth] trying to shed some light !-

 

[BABerean2]

I remember ...you believe that the 6Th Seal is about the Day of the Coming of Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 ...Is that right ?

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

This is the dividing line between the events of 70 AD found above...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
and the Second Coming of Christ found below, after the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
(The moon does not give its normal bright light during a blood moon.)
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

.

 

[keras]

and the Second Coming of Christ found below, after the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

That the Sixth Seal is a different event to the glorious Return, is proved in many ways, one is the moon; Sixth seal - blood red, at the Return; darkened.
Is Amos 5:18-20 a description of the Return?

 

[BABerean2]

Sixth seal - blood red, at the Return; darkened.

It is a difference that does not exist, if you understand astronomy.

A blood moon occurs during a full moon when the moon is normally at its brightest. In the matter of a few hours the earth's shadow passes over the moon blocking the sun's light and darkening the moon. The reddening effect is due to a change in the amount of light and factors in how light is filtered in our atmosphere.

Therefore, during a blood moon the moon is darkened.

.

 

[DavidPT]

You make the mistake of interpreting the clearly revealed scriptures with the obscure. You must make Revelation conform to the rest of the NT. And not make the rest of the NT conform to it.

The day of the Lord includes all that follows Christ's rule. Everything.

When it comes to prophecy though, does or does not that involve some form of sensible chronology? For example. satan is bound a thousand years in the pit. The beast reigns for 42 months. The first advent. The 2nd advent. So on and so on. Do not all of those things involve some sort of sensible chronology? Would it be sensible chronology to conclude the 2nd advent precedes the first advent, as an example? If you haven't figured it out by now, that's basically my approach when trying to interpret prophecies, that being to first try and establish a sensible timelime of events based on the clues in the texts involved. When doing that the obscure no longer seems as obscure. At least to me anyway.

 

[DavidPT]

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

This is the dividing line between the events of 70 AD found above...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
and the Second Coming of Christ found below, after the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
(The moon does not give its normal bright light during a blood moon.)
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

.

You are then place the fulfillment of verse 24 during 70 AD? Surely the times of the Gentiles were not fulfilled at that time. IMO verse 24 needs to be taken in a spiritual sense since it is meaning Revelation 11:2 for one.

 

[BABerean2]

You are then place the fulfillment of verse 24 during 70 AD? Surely the times of the Gentiles were not fulfilled at that time. IMO verse 24 needs to be taken in a spiritual sense since it is meaning Revelation 11:2 for one.

That is not what I said.

The times of the Gentiles ends at the Second Coming of Christ.
That is why it is written below the dotted line in my post above.

The first part of Luke 21:24 is about 70 AD.
The end of the verse gives a time period that follows 70 AD, which will last until the Second Coming of Christ.
That time period is "the times of the Gentiles".

Luke 21:25-27 is the future Second Coming of Christ, which occurs after "the times of the Gentiles" are completed.

.

 

[DavidPT]

That is not what I said.

The times of the Gentiles ends at the Second Coming of Christ.
That is why it is written below the dotted line in my post above.

The first part of Luke 21:24 is about 70 AD.
The end of the verse gives a time period that follows 70 AD, which will last until the Second Coming of Christ.
That time period is "the times of the Gentiles".

Luke 21:25-27 is the future Second Coming of Christ, which occurs after "the times of the Gentiles" are completed.

.

After looking at that post again, you are indeed correct, that's what you indeed said. Don't know how I missed that the first time around? Sorry for the confusion and misrepresentation on my part.

 

[Dave L]

When it comes to prophecy though, does or does not that involve some form of sensible chronology? For example. satan is bound a thousand years in the pit. The beast reigns for 42 months. The first advent. The 2nd advent. So on and so on. Do not all of those things involve some sort of sensible chronology? Would it be sensible chronology to conclude the 2nd advent precedes the first advent, as an example? If you haven't figured it out by now, that's basically my approach when trying to interpret prophecies, that being to first try and establish a sensible timelime of events based on the clues in the texts involved. When doing that the obscure no longer seems as obscure. At least to me anyway.

The Recapitulation view takes all of this into account. Just as the gospels mirror each other. Try looking for the end of the world as you read through Revelation. You will see it 7 times. So Revelation covers the time from its writing to the end of the world 7 times. Look for what the symbols represent instead of looking for the symbols to appear. It will make sense if you do this.

 

[Erik Nelson]

The 1000 years end on earth's last day, along with Gog and Magog and the wicked who attack the church.

Revelations 20 explicitly states there is a "little time" (mikros chronos) after the Millennium, during which Satan directs Gog & Magog against the Church, before and up until the Great White Throne Judgement on Earth's last day.

Your statement "telescopes" and "accordions" Rev 19-20 like smushing a stack of pancakes flat into one cakey mash.

However, there is clearly a chronology and schedule:

• Millennium
• "last days" = Gog & Magog for a "little time"
• The End = Final Judgement

Likewise, Armageddon occurs during the fall of Babylon. Yes, it's a significant day of judgement. It prefigures Final Judgement. But it pre-dates Final Judgement:

• Armageddon vs. Babylon (who whorishly rode the Beast [of the sea]) (Rev 18)
• Christ's Gospel defeats the Beast (Rev 19)
• Millennium (Rev 20:1-6)
• "last days" (Rev 20:7-9)
• The End (Rev 20:10-ff.)

Eschatology is episodic. Armageddon of Babylon (1 city) prefigures the defeat of the Beast (1 empire) prefigures the destruction of Earth (1 planet). Judgements scale up in size & scope. But they are separate & distinct events.

Babylon != Beast != Earth​

Similar? Yes.
Identically the same? No.

Eschatology is episodic. Everybody bothering to post in this thread is arguing from valid point(s). Essentially everything everyone is saying is mutually compatible, once the episodic repetitive nature of earth's "Doomsday schedule" is noted.

Just as amillennianism is compatible with (say) premillennianism. Amil is true, in the sense that the Kingdom began with Christ, and Christianity today is a "smooth & continuous" outflow of Christ's ministry. Modern Christianity "connects back continuously" to Christ. Yes. Check.

But, the scale & scope of Christianity in society fluctuates. The one true body-of-Christ Church gets bigger & smaller, with a remnant surviving through to The End:

• Armageddon vs. Babylon unleashes Christianity
  
• From Christ until Rev 19, Christianity grows (routing Demonic influences)
• defeat of the Beast entrenches Christianity
  
• During the Millennium of Rev 20, Christianity is at its heyday & high-water mark (restraining Demonic influences)
• After the Millennium, Christianity shrinks to Gog & Magog (resisting Demonic influences)
• destruction of Gog & Magog saves Christianity
  
• At Final Judgement, the steadfast remnant are saved when "the Heavenly Cavalry arrives"

Essentially everything everyone is writing in text is mutually compatible, when sorted & filed into the appropriate "period" of eschatology.

 

[Dave L]

Revelations 20 explicitly states there is a "little time" (mikros chronos) after the Millennium, during which Satan directs Gog & Magog against the Church, before and up until the Great White Throne Judgement on Earth's last day.

Your statement "telescopes" and "accordions" Rev 19-20 like smushing a stack of pancakes flat into one cakey mash.

However, there is clearly a chronology and schedule:

• Millennium
• "last days" = Gog & Magog for a "little time"
• The End = Final Judgement

Likewise, Armageddon occurs during the fall of Babylon. Yes, it's a significant day of judgement. It prefigures Final Judgement. But it pre-dates Final Judgement:

• Armageddon vs. Babylon (who whorishly rode the Beast [of the sea]) (Rev 18)
• Christ's Gospel defeats the Beast (Rev 19)
• Millennium (Rev 20:1-6)
• "last days" (Rev 20:7-9)
• The End (Rev 20:10-ff.)

Eschatology is episodic. Armageddon of Babylon (1 city) prefigures the defeat of the Beast (1 empire) prefigures the destruction of Earth (1 planet). Judgements scale up in size & scope. But they are separate & distinct events.

Babylon != Beast != Earth​

Similar? Yes.
Identically the same? No.

Eschatology is episodic. Everybody bothering to post in this thread is arguing from valid point(s). Essentially everything everyone is saying is mutually compatible, once the episodic repetitive nature of earth's "Doomsday schedule" is noted.

Just as amillennianism is compatible with (say) premillennianism. Amil is true, in the sense that the Kingdom began with Christ, and Christianity today is a "smooth & continuous" outflow of Christ's ministry. Modern Christianity "connects back continuously" to Christ. Yes. Check.

But, the scale & scope of Christianity in society fluctuates. The one true body-of-Christ Church gets bigger & smaller, with a remnant surviving through to The End:

• Armageddon vs. Babylon unleashes Christianity
  
• From Christ until Rev 19, Christianity grows (routing Demonic influences)
• defeat of the Beast entrenches Christianity
  
• During the Millennium of Rev 20, Christianity is at its heyday & high-water mark (restraining Demonic influences)
• After the Millennium, Christianity shrinks to Gog & Magog (resisting Demonic influences)
• destruction of Gog & Magog saves Christianity
  
• At Final Judgement, the steadfast remnant are saved when "the Heavenly Cavalry arrives"

Essentially everything everyone is writing in text is mutually compatible, when sorted & filed into the appropriate "period" of eschatology.

Notice I'm presenting obstacles to the Premillennial position. This is not what scripture teaches. Since Paul places the kingdom ending on earth, and continuing in the new heavens and earth on the Last day, the premillennialists have a problem of fitting all that happens after Satan is loosed into the last day. Gog, Magog, Armageddon, the attack on the church etc.

Another huge problem stems from the resurrection and rapture on the last day, leaving no church on earth for Satan to attack. There's more but it is a very buggy system if you look at it along side of the rest of the end time scriptures.

 

[Erik Nelson]

The verb tenses are all aorist indicative active:
Revelation 20:4 and those who had not worshiped (aorist indicative active) the beast or its image and had not received (aorist indicative active) its mark on their foreheads or their hands and they lived (aorist indicative active) and reigned (aorist indicative active) with Christ for a thousand years.
These who did not worship the beast or receive the mark, lived and reigned with Christ. This is the 1st resurrection.
Revelation 20:5 This is the first resurrection
The 1st resurrection is when the believers are priests of God and Christ
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
The believers in Peter and John's day were already a kingdom of priests
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood,
Revelation 1:6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father,
Revelation 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reignb on the earth.” (notice the b, which indicates some manuscripts state 'they reign').
Thus the 1st resurrection (born again) was already happening in Peter and John's day.



You are assuming that John is seeing the physical resurrected souls living and reigning, in their new spiritual bodies, with Christ in in a future tense on earth. However the verb tenses tell another story. John is seeing the souls of those having been beheaded (perfect participle) for the testimony of Jesus and those who did not worship (past tense) the beast, did not take (past tense) its mark, who lived (past tense) and reigned (past tense) with Christ.



I disagree, the believers in Peter and John's day were already a royal, kingdom of priests. This was before the coming of Christ:
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood,
Revelation 1:6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father,
Revelation 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reignb on the earth.” (notice the b, which indicates some manuscripts state 'they reign' which is presently, not just in the future).

Which leads me to believe that being born again is the first resurrection, as those born again pass from death to life and are a new creation, as well as a kingdom of priests. Does the 2nd death have power over those born again? No.



I agree that they are reigning on earth:

Luke 10:19 have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.
John 14:12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father

I believe that all those who receive Gods gift of righteousness reign in life through Christ.
Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

very thoughtful & insightful !

The key word is "reigned".

From Christ onwards, believers -- initially relatively few in number -- were a spiritual "nation of Priests".

During the Millennium, believers -- many many in number -- become a spiritual "nation of Priests"... in charge of society & culture.

The only difference is "reigned".

Same Church of Christ at the core... it just grows & grows until it takes

Notice I'm presenting obstacles to the Premillennial position. This is not what scripture teaches. Since Paul places the kingdom ending on earth, and continuing in the new heavens and earth on the Last day, the premillennialists have a problem of fitting all that happens after Satan is loosed into the last day. Gog, Magog, Armageddon, the attack on the church etc.

Another huge problem stems from the resurrection and rapture on the last day, leaving no church on earth for Satan to attack. There's more but it is a very buggy system if you look at it along side of the rest of the end time scriptures.

"leaving no Church on earth for Satan to attack" -- very astute observation!

I think we're agreeing -- Armageddon vs. Babylon (1 city) and the defeat of the Beast (1 empire) occur before the Christian Millennium, whereas Gog & Magog arise afterwards

The Church ebbs & flows, rises & retreats... but a remnant is prophesied to survive through to The End on Final Judgement Day before the arrived Great White Throne.