Before the Christian era it read "pierced" and afterward something else.
It can be used in various ways.
"John had to break the news to Jack, and it pierced Jacks heart."
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Before the Christian era it read "pierced" and afterward something else.
In the older Dead Sea Scrolls version of Psalms 22 the word is ka’aru meaning, “to dig out” or “to bore through”
…..Actually, the Septuagint, the oldest existing Jewish translation of the Tanakh, was the first to translate the Hebrew as “they pierced my hands and feet” (using the verb oruxan in Greek),
followed by the Syriach Peshitta version two or three centuries later (rendering with baz’u) not only so, but the oldest Hebrew copy of the Psalms we possess (from the Dead Sea Scrolls, dating to the century before Yeshua) reads the verb in this verse as ka’aru (not ka’ari, “like a lion”), a reading also found in about a dozen medieval Masoretic manuscripts—recognized as the authoritative texts in traditional Jewish thought—where instead of ka’ari (found in almost all other Masoretic manuscripts) the texts say either ka’aru or karu.
In conclusion, the Dead Sea scrolls agrees with the picture of the pierced Messiah in the 22nd Psalm, verse 16.
Now here is an example of unity of scripture. Now you have three witnesses, Psalms, Isaiah, and Zechriah. Psalms 22:16. Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.
Note that את in Hebrew often means "with".
Bs"dZechariah 3:8
“‘Listen, High Priest (Joshua / Yahshua), you and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Instead of tearing eachother apart over who is right or wrong.
We should recite Psalms daily.
If we only understood the power in reciting Psalms we would do nothing else.
There is nothing that penetrates the heavens without interference as reciting Psalms.
When done with all ernesty,
It is pouring out ones self.
Apart from that the whole discussion is uninteresting.
Correction,
uninteresting in as much as it is like a never ending melody,
Messiah / Anoited
Bs"d
There is no "piercing" in Psalm 22.
On top of that, neither Psalm 22, nor Isaiah 53 or Zech 12:10 speak about the messiah.
For Isaiah 53 look here: http://Isaiah53.notlong.com
For Zech 12:10 look here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/et-asher
Never seen an instance where "את" means "with". Please show some examples.
The TempleBs"d
And there is spoken about Zerubabel.
In Zechariah the branch is Zerubabel. See chapter 6: "The word of the Lord came to me: 10 “Take silver and gold from the exiles Heldai, Tobijah and Jedaiah, who have arrived from Babylon. Go the same day to the house of Josiah son of Zephaniah. 11 Take the silver and gold and make a crown, and set it on the head of the high priest, Joshua son of Jozadak. 12 Tell him this is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the Lord. 13 It is he who will build the temple of the Lord, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne. And he will be a priest on his throne. And there will be harmony between the two.’"
So the branch would be ruler and build the Temple of God. Did JC do that? No. He never was a ruler, and he didn't build the Temple.
Who build the Temple and ruled on his throne? Zerubabel: "So he said to me, “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the Lord Almighty.
7 “What are you, mighty mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become level ground. Then he will bring out the capstone to shouts of ‘God bless it! God bless it!’”
8 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 9 “The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this temple; his hands will also complete it. Then you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you."
Zech 4
And Zerubabel was a ruler. He did build the Temple. JC was nothing of this all. Therefore this does not speak about JC, but about Zerubabel.
Bs"dMessiah / Anoited
The concepts of moshiach, messianism, and of a Messianic Age originated in Judaism, and in the Hebrew Bible; a moshiach (messiah) is a king or High Priest traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil.
Daniel 9:25
“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
For Daniel 9 look here: http://tinyurl.com/Daniel9EAfter the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
God proclaimed Yahshua His Anointed, so that is good enough for me.Bs"d
A messiah is an anointed person. Kings and High Priests were anointed at their inauguration by a prophet or a priest.
It is important to keep in mind that this has never been done with JC, so he was never an anointed one, he was never a messiah.
Wrong translation, as usual. It does not say there THE anointed one, but "AN anointed one"
For Daniel 9 look here: http://tinyurl.com/Daniel9E
https://tinyurl.com/ecc-12-13
It can be used in various ways.
"John had to break the news to Jack, and it pierced Jacks heart."
Bs"d
We should do the one, and not refrain from the other.
People who are wrong need to be corrected. This is a part of "Love your neighbour as yourself".
There is more to life than only reciting Psalms.
There are commandments to be fulfilled.
Please feel free to stay away from it.
https://tinyurl.com/ecc-12-13
Bs"d
Don't take that age too seriously. I'm a bit younger.
Yes it is.
The suffering servant is Israel. But sometimes somebody else, for instance king David, is called a "servant of God".
See here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/et-asher
Zech 13 does not have a verse 17.
To begin with; the Psalms are not prophetic writings. Also Psalm 22 does not claim to prophesize about the messiah. It is nowhere written: The messiah will come and he will call out during his execution: My God, my God, why did you forsake me? This is king David speaking about himself. This Psalm is written mainly in the past tense, and describes the tribulations King David went through. But, as shown before, the authentic messianic prophecies are NOT fulfilled by Jesus, and therefore Christianity has to resort to Biblical texts that have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, and present them as messianic prophecies. Because of the fact that, according the NT, Jesus quoted Psalms during his execution, the Christians claim that this Psalm must be a prophecy about the messiah. An upside down proof based upon nothing. And even that is not enough. In order to make it a little more authentic Christianity squeezed in the infamous falsification about the “piercing of hand and feet”. See verse 16: “Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet.” They say: “Look! Here is the crucifixion, prophesized in the Psalms!”
Point one: It is not written here that that the hands and feet of the messiah would be pierced. Like I pointed out: King David speaks here about himself, and that in the past tense. And on top of that: there is no such a thing as “they pierced my hand an feet”. The Hebrew word that is here translated as 'pierced' is 'ka'arie'. There is no word that even comes close to ka'arie that means piercing. To call this a mistranslation is too euphemistic, we should call this just what it is; another Christian falsification of their Bible translations, in order to squeeze in JC. The word that comes the closest is 'karah', but it is impossible to fit that in here, because that would violate almost every rule in the Hebrew grammar. And besides that, karah does not mean piercing, but 'to dig up, to bring up from the ground' (in the sense of mining)
The Hebrew prefix 'ka' means: 'as the', and the Hebrew word 'arie' means 'lion'. So what it says here is: "Like the lion [they are at] my hands and feet." The text between the square brackets is my insertion. So King David, who is not prophesizing about the messiah here, is speaking about a lion, and not about piercing hands and feet. The same lion he speaks about in verse 13 and 21.
Also the modern day Bible translations translate this in the wrong way. I could find only one Christian Bible translation who translates this verse in the right way, and that is the translation of the Y-H-V-H witnesses. But at least the modern Bible translations have the decency to write that there is no such thing in the Hebrew text.
My edition of the Revised Standard Version has a footnote with the word pierced in verse 16, it says there: "Gk Syr Jerome: Heb like a lion" That means that the translators get the word “pierced” from the ancient Greek translation; the Septuaginth, and from the Syriac translation, and from the Vulgata, the Catholic translation of the Bible into Latin, made by Jerome, on the request of Pope Damascus, in 328 CE. But this: “Heb like a lion” means that they admit that in the Hebrew is written: Like a lion.
Here is the footnote of the New American Standard Bible Update (1995): "Another reading is like a lion, my..."
And here is the footnote of the New International Version: "Some Hebrew manuscripts, Septuagint and Syriac; most Hebrew manuscripts: 'like the lion,"
What the Bible translators are doing here is ignoring the original Hebrew Bible, and translating translations instead, because that fits the Christian theology better.
But the exact same word "ka'arie" is used in Isaiah 38:13. This claim can be checked out by people who cannot read Hebrew, by means of the Christian Hebrew-English interlinear, that is a Hebrew text of the Tanach, (OT), with under each word an English translation. Provided by a Christian institution. Look here: www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm and look there how it is translated there. It is possible to zoom into the text.
On the right side of the Hebrew text is a normal English translation. Now look at the discrepancy between how the Hebrew is translated right underneath, and how it is translated in the text on the right side. VERY educational!
And look here how the English translations translate the word "ka'arie" in Isaiah 38:11;
New International Version “I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones;”
ew American Standard Bible: “I composed my soul until morning. Like a lion--so He breaks all my bones,”
The Message: “I cry for help until morning. Like a lion, God pummels and pounds me,”
Amplified Bible: “I thought and quieted myself until morning. Like a lion He breaks all my bones;”
New Living Translation: “I waited patiently all night, but I was torn apart as though by lions.”
King James Version: “I reckoned till morning, that, as a lion, so will he break all my bones:”
English Standard Version: “I calmed myself until morning; like a lion he breaks all my bones;”
Contemporary English Version: “Until morning came, I thought you would crush my bones just like a hungry lion;”
New King James Version: “ I have considered until morning-- Like a lion, So He breaks all my bones;”
New Century Version: "I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones"
21st Century King James Version: “I reckoned till morning that, as a lion, so will He break all my bones;”
American Standard Version: “I quieted myself until morning; as a lion, so he breaketh all my bones:”
Young's Literal Translation: “I have set [Him] till morning as a lion, So doth He break all my bones,”
Darby Translation: “I kept still until the morning; ... as a lion, so doth he break all my bones.”
Revised Standard version: “I cry for help until morning; like a lion he breaks all my bones;”
Another place where we see the word "ka'arie" is in Numbers 24:9. See here how it is there translated:
New International Version “Like a lion they crouch and lie down"
New American Standard Bible: “He crouches, he lies down as a lion"
The Message: “Israel crouches like a lion and naps"
Amplified Bible: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"
New Living Translation: “Like a lion, Israel crouches and lies down"
King James Version: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"
English Standard Version: “He crouched, he lay down like a lion"
Contemporary English Version: “Like a lion you lie down"
New King James Version: “He bows down, he lies down as a lion"
New Century Version: “Like a lion, they lie waiting to attack"
21th Century King James Version: "He couched, he lay down as a lion"
American Standard Version: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"
Young's Literal Translation: “He hath bent, he hath lain down as a lion"
Darby Translation: “He stooped, he lay down like a lion"
Revised Standard version: “He couched, he lay down like a lion"
To be continued.
Underlying the jewish rejection of The Messiah being a suffering servant as well as a conquering king is a refusal to get to grips with the theology of sin. How will any, Jew or Gentile, escape the certain just condemnation and judgement of their sinfulness?
Baruch Hashem
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God will forgive us.
https://tinyurl.com/Zech-8-23
No that's not what I'm sayingBs"d
So you are saying that there is no proof from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.
Well, since there is a lot of proof from Isaiah that it speaks about Israel, then I guess this debate is settle in favour of the Jewish viewpoint.
Baruch Hashem!
"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5
Bs"dThose who repent and believe receive forgiveness and eternal life. But a spotless lamb was necessary to make atonement