Isaiah 52-53 ~ Israel or The Messiah?

Sep 1, 2012
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This is a spin off from the ongoing 'I have a question directed towards Muslims' thread.
I want to thank LoAmmi for providing this link to a certain exposition of Isaiah chapters 52-54 to which I want to respond.

http://www.thehebrewcafe.com/articles/isaiah_52-54.pdf

Going through this study it's often felt like entering someone's living room for the first time, sitting down and looking around. I've been allowed to see into a world view and a theology which was previously unknown to me.

The writer's thesis is that the “My Servant” of Isaiah 53:13, and all references concerning this servant throughout Isaiah 52-54, speak only of the nation of Israel and not the Messiah. Straight away I'm wondering if the writer believes there are mentions of the Messiah in other parts of Isaiah? For I assume that he believes that a Messiah is to come as foretold in his Bible.
The writer uses two principle lines of argument to establish his understanding of the text.

1- a contextual argument - that chapters 52 and 54 are all about the people of Israel, that Isaiah elsewhere clearly speaks of the people of Israel as being God's servant, so ipso facto everything between, referring to God's servant, is speaking only of the people of Israel as a collective.


2- linguistic arguments - principally that in Hebrew masculine singular pronouns, verbal forms and suffixes can quite properly be used to refer to a collective.


The contextual argument
On his first page the writer says of Isaiah 52:13-53:12, “When placed within its proper context, however, it is clear that this passage is not talking about events that took place around the year 30 of the Common Era. It is rather, a prophecy of the end of the age and of the coming redemption of the Jewish people from their exile in the world.”
To the writer, “it is clear” but I find nothing in the context or the text or his explaining of it that makes it clear that this passage is only about, “the coming redemption of the Jewish people”. Throughout Isaiah and all the other prophets God gives many prophecies. Some are clearer than others, some are so unclear that probably we will only properly understand them when 'all is revealed' and to God will be the glory. Sometimes The Lord gives more than one prophecy in a portion and sometimes one prophecy may have shadow fulfillments over the course of His Story before the complete fulfillment. Consider Jacob's words to his sons in Genesis 49. Here in the context of many different prophecies, mainly concerning the different tribes of Israel (collectives personified), are found at least two that can be taken to speak of an individual person that could be The Messiah (verses 10 and 24).

Although the prophecies in chapter 54 easily read as a natural progression from 52 and 53 there is nothing in them that would dictate that the previous prophecies could not be about an individual. Only in the last verse of 54 are servants, plural, mentioned. The logic of the contextual argument would be for this last verse to speak of servant in the singular. It is of interest to note that in Isaiah after 53:11 servant is never used again in the singular.

Chapter 52 is certainly part of the context of the disputed passage. Not least because the passage begins in this chapter. Also there is the first use (in 52 and 53) of singular, third person, masculine in verses 6 and 7. In verse 6 God speaks of Himself. In verse 7 a messenger bringing good news is spoken of.
The writer on page 5 of his exposition says of verse 7,
“Here the pronoun forms are unimportant in our investigation.”
How so, unimportant? His argument is that in the text being considered “the messenger” should always be understood as the people Israel. The mention of “a messenger” in Isaiah chapter 41:27 using the same third person, masculine, singular, construed word is clearly speaking of an individual person. The beginning of chapter 52 starts out addressing Zion, Jerusalem, My people but then awkwardly, according to the writers understanding, in verse 7 those being spoken to, the collective, are also the messenger who comes to them bringing good news.

The writer wants to use Isaiah 40:9 to support this interpretation of 52:7.
In Isaiah 40:9 there is no awkwardness or uncertainty. In the confines of one verse Zion and Jerusalem are told by God to be messengers to the cities of Judah and are given the message to give, “Your God reigns”.
In 52:7 the messenger is unnamed but is said to be the one giving this same message to Zion. Linking the messenger of verse 7 to Zion and Jerusalem in verse 1 in the context of this whole passage is strained and awkward.
There is a link between the 40:9, 41:27 and 52:7 on which it is very profitable to meditate but the link is not that Israel, the messenger people are the same as Israel (a Prince with God), the messenger sent by God to His people and from there to all the people of this world.

To close our examination of the contextual argument let us look at the occurrences of “My servant” in the whole book of Isaiah, which is the context for chapters 52-54. The first three occurrences of “My servant” refer to individuals; Isaiah in 20:3, Eliakim son of Hilkiah in 22:20, David in 37:35. Then in 41:8,9 “My servant” is - Israel, Jacob, descendants of Abraham. The meaning of all these names and how they link together helps illuminate our understanding of Isaiah's prophecies.

In chapters 43 to 48 all mentions of “My servant” clearly refer to the collective of Israel, Jacob.
But in chapter 42 (verses 1 and 9) no collective is specified and, as with 52:13, the exclamation, “Behold! My Servant” starts a descriptive passage which is much more easily read as referring to an individual than to a collective. Verses 18-20 is a wonderful portion, difficult to grasp, but seeming to be a meeting of, and an interplay between, the two Messenger Servants, The Messiah and his people.

Again the first seven verses of chapter 49 read much more naturally as speaking of an individual, an individual sent to bring back Jacob and Israel to God (verse5). The awkwardness of verse 3 referring to The Servant as Israel disappears if the name Israel is read in that verse as referring to The Messiah (a prince with God). We know that a play with names is often used throughout the holy scriptures.

The last use of 'servant' in the singular before the the passage under discussion is in chapter 50:10. In the majority of this chapter it is The Servant who speaks in the first person singular. Again, the natural reading of this is that an individual is speaking not a collective.

There is nothing in the context of Isaiah to establish that all mentions of “My Servant” refer only to the people of Israel. However there is much in the context that would support that “My Servant” refers to both the people of Israel and The Messiah.

I conclude this post here.
God willing, I intend to do a second post on the linked exposition of Isaiah 52-54, addressing the writer's linguistic justifications of his argument and what seems to be his theology concerning suffering, sacrifice and redemption.

I would ask that any responses to this thread keep as close as possible to the topic and that we avoid sidetracking.

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LoAmmi

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I thank you for taking the time to read that link and go over the information. To be honest, you acknowledging that our argument at least makes sense is the best I tend to hope for. I don't intend to convince you to not believe in Jesus or anything like that. Most Christians don't even say that our argument is consistent.

I cannot argue dual prophecy interpretation where one prophecy means two things. I can't help wonder why it can't mean three things. Or ten things. Or a million things. It gets to the point where if it can mean everything it means nothing. So, if you believe it can mean Jesus as well, I can't argue that. I don't believe it refers to the Messiah in any way.

Now, let me ask this. Remove the New Testament lens from your mind. What in Isaiah 53 or the surrounding verses gives you the clue that this person referenced is the Messiah? I'm very curious to know since none of the hallmark phrases of the Messiah are present such as referencing the future king of Israel or David or David's son. Let me know.
 
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I find aspects of reading the individual "he" experiences in Isa. 52:13-53:12 as corporate Israel strained, for example regarding "grave with the wicked/with the rich" in v. 9. Did Isaiah intend to write that corporate Israel was buried in a grave with the rich or wicked? Even the JPS translates the plural "his deaths" (again v. 9) as "his death" (singular), perhaps because reading the plural "deaths" as intensive (cf. Zech. 9:9 "donkeys=donkey"), hence singular.

"Cut off from the land of the living" (v. 8) in immediate context with "his" grave with a rich man and "his" death seems to make an interpretation of "cut off=exile" (p. 21) less likely than literal bodily death--Ezekiel's dry bones/exile metaphor (ch. 37) being of more remote context and worth separate discussion.

Switching speakers mid-sentence in v. 8 does not persuade me, suggesting contrary to the usually insightful http://www.thehebrewcafe.com/articles/isaiah_52-54.pdf (p. 22) that "he=my holy people" cut off and stricken because of the transgressions of "my (exile-deserving) people" leans on the contextually awkward (and constitutes an unmarked change in recipient from the previous "our/us"); reading Israel as doing no injustice and speaking no falsehood (v. 9) seems largely unlike the picture of Israel in Isaiah or in the chapters surrounding chs. 52-53 (where also G-d alone saves).

Reading the speaker in v. 1 and following as the kings of the earth, while plausible, is surely up for debate. And whether "he=Messiah" or "he=Israel," the "atoning" for others language/punished for others' sins language applied to human suffering and death is unique to the Tanakh so far as I can recall even while the antecedent theology of sacrifice in Isa. 53 is clearly Mosaic (vv. 5, 7).

P.S. (1) Cf. "root/tree trunk out of dry ground" in 53:2 with. 11:1. (2) Note LXX "unto death" represents a textual variation to the MT "to them" at the end of v. 8 (this Gk. implying adding a tav consonant and changing the pointing to the MT "to them").
 
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LoAmmi

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reading Israel as doing no injustice and speaking no falsehood (v. 9) seems largely unlike the picture of Israel in Isaiah or in the chapters surrounding chs. 52-53 (where also G-d alone saves).

I will point out that the concept of a remnant of people who remained loyal even when the rest of Israel fell apart is consistent with the rest of the prophet. Elijah is basically fired for believing that all the people had failed. Corporate Israel was judged for the actions of the majority of people within it, but that remnant remained. In the Jewish view, that remnant IS the Israel referred to here, not just anybody who happens to be Jewish but does nothing with it.

Let me ask you the same question I asked above:

Remove the New Testament lens from your mind. What in Isaiah 53 or the surrounding verses gives you the clue that this person referenced is the Messiah? I'm very curious to know since none of the hallmark phrases of the Messiah are present such as referencing the future king of Israel or David or David's son. Let me know.
 
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I will point out that the concept of a remnant of people who remained loyal even when the rest of Israel fell apart is consistent with the rest of the prophet. Elijah is basically fired for believing that all the people had failed. Corporate Israel was judged for the actions of the majority of people within it, but that remnant remained. In the Jewish view, that remnant IS the Israel referred to here, not just anybody who happens to be Jewish but does nothing with it.

Let me ask you the same question I asked above:

Remove the New Testament lens from your mind. What in Isaiah 53 or the surrounding verses gives you the clue that this person referenced is the Messiah? I'm very curious to know since none of the hallmark phrases of the Messiah are present such as referencing the future king of Israel or David or David's son. Let me know.

Save perhaps obliquely, I was not addressing your question. My use of the word "largely" in your quote of me constitutes an agreement to the possibility of a faithful remnant of Israel (eschatologically?), though your reminder does not settle the identity of the "he" in Isa. 53 nor fully address the associated pattern I mentioned. I also wonder if you have fully digested my post. For one thing, I'm not sure how to read your silence on my first P.S. And if we agree that the "atonement for others language" applied to human suffering and death here is unique in the Tanakh, may we then expect see certain Messianic identity markers seen elsewhere (e.g., title as Son of David) in this passage? I'm not sure. Also on a flip side, I'm not sure we can expect to see typical "faithful remnant" markers; the passage is perhaps unique in too many respects (?).

As I have spent more time today on this thread than I can reasonably afford, I must otherwise bow out for the time being. In general terms I see the "my servant" of Isa. 52-53 as an unblemished lamb accomplishing salvation in a way that only Ha Shem's arm is capable, but somewhat vaguely I also fear our conversation henceforth may degenerate into batting variations of burden of proof to the opposing side of the table tennis/ping pong net--assuming my other relevant arguments above have been sufficiently addressed.
 
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LoAmmi

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Save perhaps obliquely, I was not addressing your question. My use of the word "largely" in your quote of me constitutes an agreement to the possibility of a faithful remnant of Israel (eschatologically?), though your reminder does not settle the identity of the "he" in Isa. 53 nor fully address the associated pattern I mentioned. I also wonder if you have fully digested my post. For one thing, I'm not sure how to read your silence on my first P.S. And if we agree that the "atonement for others language" applied to human suffering and death here is unique in the Tanakh, may we then expect see certain Messianic identity markers seen elsewhere (e.g., title as Son of David) in this passage? I'm not sure. Also on a flip side, I'm not sure we can expect to see typical "faithful remnant" markers; the passage is perhaps unique in too many respects (?).

As I have spent more time today on this thread than I can reasonably afford, I must otherwise bow out for the time being. In general terms I see the "my servant" of Isa. 52-53 as an unblemished lamb accomplishing salvation in a way that only Ha Shem's arm is capable, but somewhat vaguely I also fear our conversation henceforth may degenerate into batting variations of burden of proof to the opposing side of the table tennis/ping pong net--assuming my other relevant arguments above have been sufficiently addressed.


I was merely hitting a point I saw. I agree with you that this passage is unique in many ways and that specific tells to either concept are not there. I don't intend to convince anybody as my intentions are to get people to understand that our point of view makes sense. I say that Christianity 's view makes sense once some assumptions are made in the same way ours makes sense when we make our assumptions. As long as we agree that neither side is a bunch of stupid people who can't read, I'm happy to agree to disagree.
 
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ewq1938

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A careful reading of it makes it clear enough that this is about a single person not a nation of people spanning centuries.





Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.


The WE here is Israel and they are rejecting this other person.



Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.



HE is the singular person, and the OUR is clearly Israel.


Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


HE is the singular person, and the OUR is clearly Israel.



Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


See above.


Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.



“my people” clearly is Israel and the HE was stricken for THEIR transgressions! It is literally impossible for this “he” to be Israel. Claiming he is Israel is one of the greatest examples of improper biblical study. It reeks of desperation in trying to deny this man was the Messiah. It isn't even important if this is about the Messiah or not as much as disputing the notion the "he" could possibly be Israel. However, who but the Messiah could qualify as pure enough to die in order to save people from their transgressions?


Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.


Never could this apply to Israel.



Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


How can a nation bare the sin of itself? Obviously the WE is Israel and the HE is this single man.


This matches the life and death of Jesus Christ perfectly and shows how a single man would bare the sins for many. He died with transgressors, buried in a rich man's grave...a fulfilled prophecy.
 
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withwonderingawe

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From the article; .. a prophecy of the end of the age and of the coming redemption of the Jewish people from their exile in the world.


I think we have to ask who is Israel? Today’s Jews seem to think it’s them but when Isaiah was writing this Israel consisted of the twelve tribes.

Abraham was told;

“And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed…“ Genesis 26:4

And Moses prophesied about Jacob’s seed

“And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.” Deut 4

Every nation or people are in some way connected to Israel. And they were commanded to;

“Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes; For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles…The God of the whole earth shall he be called.” Isa 54

You have to ask why were they “forsaken” what cause the Lord’s great “wrath” to hide his face from thee?

Could it be “ ….and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; …. and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.” Isa 53

John said it all; “He came unto his own, and his own received him not.” John 1
 
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LoAmmi

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From the article; .. a prophecy of the end of the age and of the coming redemption of the Jewish people from their exile in the world.


I think we have to ask who is Israel? Today’s Jews seem to think it’s them but when Isaiah was writing this Israel consisted of the twelve tribes.

The return of all twelve is a key element in the Tanach of the Messianic times. The Lord will gather them from the all the world back to Israel and those who never knew they were of Israel shall know. We Jews believe our brothers and sisters are going to return and learn to keep Torah again.
 
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withwonderingawe

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It was the custom of this prophet Isaiah,
he mentions all Israel as one man,
44:2- "Fear not My servant Jakob",
44:1-"And now hearken Jakob My servant",
52:13-"Behold My servant shall prosper",

I fully agree with you on that point;
“Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he…” Isa 43

You were to testify to the world that salvation comes through Jesus.

“Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph…..Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God/El; thou art the King of Israel./Yahweh” John 1

Jesus pick 12 men representing the 12 tribes to go out to the Gentile world to preach and testify of him.

Peter was a Jew, in Acts 2 he proclaimed the message

“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.” Act 2

The Jews in the room were pricked in their hearts by the Holy Spirit and accepted Jesus.

Paul was like you he first rejected Jesus as the promised savior, he too was waiting for someone to show the world that Israel was God chosen people.

Then he had his vision and afterwards “… straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. But all that heard him were amazed…And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him”

My fellow Christians here are not going to like the way I interpret Paul’s letter to the Ephesians, it’s not about personal salvation but about the salvation of the gentiles in general. Paul is writing as an Israelite to Gentiles, he uses the nouns we, us and ye

“According as he hath chosen us/Jews and Gentile in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:… In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace….Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all (of mankind) in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

In whom also we/Jews have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we/Jews should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye/Gentiles also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation…”

The Jews had a special calling to preach the Gospel of Salvation to the rest of the world.

“And you/gentiles hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world….Among whom also we/Jews all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, ….and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others…

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us/Jew and Gentile…And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

For by grace are ye/Gentile saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we/Jews are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

It was your calling as God’s chosen servants to preach Christ to the rest of the world.

BUT throughout Jesus earthly ministry it was the Gentiles who showed more faith in him than the Jews. There is the Roman centurion who understood according to Jewish law Jesus could not enter his home, he felt unworthy of Jesus but still he pled for the life of his servant.

“When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.”

In Matt 11 he says
“Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.”

The opportunity for salvation was brought to the Gentiles world not because of any great work they had done but because of the great faith they were showing, because they were ready for it, they were hungry for it. Many Jews also accepted Jesus as their Messiah but they were hunted down and martyred like Stephen for their faith in Jesus.
 
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LoAmmi

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I fully agree with you on that point;
“Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he…” Isa 43

You were to testify to the world that salvation comes through Jesus.

“Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph…..Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God/El; thou art the King of Israel./Yahweh” John 1

Jesus pick 12 men representing the 12 tribes to go out to the Gentile world to preach and testify of him.

Peter was a Jew, in Acts 2 he proclaimed the message

“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.” Act 2

The Jews in the room were pricked in their hearts by the Holy Spirit and accepted Jesus.

Paul was like you he first rejected Jesus as the promised savior, he too was waiting for someone to show the world that Israel was God chosen people.

Then he had his vision and afterwards “… straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. But all that heard him were amazed…And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him”

My fellow Christians here are not going to like the way I interpret Paul’s letter to the Ephesians, it’s not about personal salvation but about the salvation of the gentiles in general. Paul is writing as an Israelite to Gentiles, he uses the nouns we, us and ye

“According as he hath chosen us/Jews and Gentile in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:… In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace….Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all (of mankind) in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

In whom also we/Jews have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we/Jews should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye/Gentiles also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation…”

The Jews had a special calling to preach the Gospel of Salvation to the rest of the world.

“And you/gentiles hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world….Among whom also we/Jews all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, ….and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others…

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us/Jew and Gentile…And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

For by grace are ye/Gentile saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we/Jews are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

It was your calling as God’s chosen servants to preach Christ to the rest of the world.

BUT throughout Jesus earthly ministry it was the Gentiles who showed more faith in him than the Jews. There is the Roman centurion who understood according to Jewish law Jesus could not enter his home, he felt unworthy of Jesus but still he pled for the life of his servant.

“When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.”

In Matt 11 he says
“Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.”

The opportunity for salvation was brought to the Gentiles world not because of any great work they had done but because of the great faith they were showing, because they were ready for it, they were hungry for it. Many Jews also accepted Jesus as their Messiah but they were hunted down and martyred like Stephen for their faith in Jesus.

I basically disagree with every word you wrote here save the line from Isaiah being a part of Isaiah.
 
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Robban

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I fully agree with you on that point;
“Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he…” Isa 43

You were to testify to the world that salvation comes through Jesus.

“Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph…..Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God/El; thou art the King of Israel./Yahweh” John 1

Jesus pick 12 men representing the 12 tribes to go out to the Gentile world to preach and testify of him.

Peter was a Jew, in Acts 2 he proclaimed the message

“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.” Act 2

The Jews in the room were pricked in their hearts by the Holy Spirit and accepted Jesus.

Paul was like you he first rejected Jesus as the promised savior, he too was waiting for someone to show the world that Israel was God chosen people.

Then he had his vision and afterwards “… straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. But all that heard him were amazed…And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him”

My fellow Christians here are not going to like the way I interpret Paul’s letter to the Ephesians, it’s not about personal salvation but about the salvation of the gentiles in general. Paul is writing as an Israelite to Gentiles, he uses the nouns we, us and ye

“According as he hath chosen us/Jews and Gentile in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:… In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace….Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all (of mankind) in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

In whom also we/Jews have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we/Jews should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye/Gentiles also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation…”

The Jews had a special calling to preach the Gospel of Salvation to the rest of the world.

“And you/gentiles hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world….Among whom also we/Jews all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, ….and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others…

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us/Jew and Gentile…And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

For by grace are ye/Gentile saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we/Jews are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

It was your calling as God’s chosen servants to preach Christ to the rest of the world.

BUT throughout Jesus earthly ministry it was the Gentiles who showed more faith in him than the Jews. There is the Roman centurion who understood according to Jewish law Jesus could not enter his home, he felt unworthy of Jesus but still he pled for the life of his servant.

“When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.”

In Matt 11 he says
“Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.”

The opportunity for salvation was brought to the Gentiles world not because of any great work they had done but because of the great faith they were showing, because they were ready for it, they were hungry for it. Many Jews also accepted Jesus as their Messiah but they were hunted down and martyred like Stephen for their faith in Jesus.

What message was Jonah given to proclaim unto the great Gentile city of Nineveh?

The Calling is not so much bringing Torah to the World,
but bringing the World to Torah.

By being a light unto the nations.

One should not act in such a manner that causes another to hate
the One who is being served.

The NT has a "Great commision"

Torah has also what may be considered a great commision of sorts,
"Uforatzta"

Gen 28:13-15
 
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I fully agree with you on that point;
“Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he…” Isa 43

You were to testify to the world that salvation comes through Jesus.

“Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph…..Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God/El; thou art the King of Israel./Yahweh” John 1

Jesus pick 12 men representing the 12 tribes to go out to the Gentile world to preach and testify of him.

Peter was a Jew, in Acts 2 he proclaimed the message

“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.” Act 2

The Jews in the room were pricked in their hearts by the Holy Spirit and accepted Jesus.

Paul was like you he first rejected Jesus as the promised savior, he too was waiting for someone to show the world that Israel was God chosen people.

Then he had his vision and afterwards “… straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. But all that heard him were amazed…And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him”

My fellow Christians here are not going to like the way I interpret Paul’s letter to the Ephesians, it’s not about personal salvation but about the salvation of the gentiles in general. Paul is writing as an Israelite to Gentiles, he uses the nouns we, us and ye

“According as he hath chosen us/Jews and Gentile in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:… In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace….Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all (of mankind) in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

In whom also we/Jews have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we/Jews should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye/Gentiles also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation…”

The Jews had a special calling to preach the Gospel of Salvation to the rest of the world.

“And you/gentiles hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world….Among whom also we/Jews all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, ….and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others…

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us/Jew and Gentile…And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

For by grace are ye/Gentile saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we/Jews are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

It was your calling as God’s chosen servants to preach Christ to the rest of the world.

BUT throughout Jesus earthly ministry it was the Gentiles who showed more faith in him than the Jews. There is the Roman centurion who understood according to Jewish law Jesus could not enter his home, he felt unworthy of Jesus but still he pled for the life of his servant.

“When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.”

In Matt 11 he says
“Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.”

The opportunity for salvation was brought to the Gentiles world not because of any great work they had done but because of the great faith they were showing, because they were ready for it, they were hungry for it. Many Jews also accepted Jesus as their Messiah but they were hunted down and martyred like Stephen for their faith in Jesus.

Please dear Wonderingawe :)
"I would ask that any responses to this thread keep as close as possible to the topic and that we avoid sidetracking."
Your post made very interesting reading but definitely a sidetrack to the text and topic- to wit

Isaiah 52-53 ~ Israel or The Messiah? Let's try to keep it focused and maybe a bit leaner :). Have you read the thesis that I link to in the opening post and in response to which I wrote the opening post?
God bless you
><>
 
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ewq1938

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It was the custom of this prophet Isaiah,
he mentions all Israel as one man,
44:2- "Fear not My servant Jakob",
44:1-"And now hearken Jakob My servant",
52:13-"Behold My servant shall prosper",


That ignores the fact that he wrote of a certain man who would die for the people of Israel so you can't have it both ways in that situation.
 
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LoAmmi

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That ignores the fact that he wrote of a certain man who would die for the people of Israel so you can't have it both ways in that situation.

In your above post your entire argument seems to be based upon the word he being used. Do you not know that the nation of Israel is routinely referred to as a single entity using words like he in the entire Tanach?
 
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