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Isaiah 52-53 ~ Israel or The Messiah?

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by afishamongmany, Jan 4, 2016.

  1. Robban

    Robban -----------

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    It can be used in various ways.

    "John had to break the news to Jack, and it pierced Jacks heart."
     
  2. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    http://www.truthnet.org/TheMessiah/12_Messiah_Objections_Psalms_2_22/

    "Jewish interpreters claim the Christians have misinterpreted Psalm 22:16 [17] because in the Masoretic text the verse reads ka’ari followed by my hand and my feet. The word ka (like) followed by ari (lion) means like a lion. The imagery here presents the picture of “Like a lion” my hands and my feet are mauled. In the older Dead Sea Scrolls version of Psalms 22 the word is ka’aru meaning, “to dig out” or “to bore through”

    So the issue of pierced is not so much a question of the King James translators, as much an issue of Jewish manuscripts. Dr. Michael Brown sums up this argument succinctly,



    ……….According to Rashi, the meaning is “as though they are crushed in a lion’s mouth.” While the commentary of Metsudat David states, “They crush my hands and my feet as the lion which crushes the bones of the prey in its mouth.” Thus, the imagery is clear; These lions are not licking the psalmist’s feet! They are tearing and ripping at them. Given the metaphorical language of the surrounding verses (cf. vv. 12-21 [13-22]), this vivid image of mauling lions graphically conveys the great physical agony of the sufferer…….

    …Where did the King James translators come up with this idea of ‘piercing’ the hands and feet? That’s not what the Hebrew says.” …..

    …..Actually, the Septuagint, the oldest existing Jewish translation of the Tanakh, was the first to translate the Hebrew as “they pierced my hands and feet” (using the verb oruxan in Greek), followed by the Syriach Peshitta version two or three centuries later (rendering with baz’u) not only so, but the oldest Hebrew copy of the Psalms we possess (from the Dead Sea Scrolls, dating to the century before Yeshua) reads the verb in this verse as ka’aru (not ka’ari, “like a lion”), a reading also found in about a dozen medieval Masoretic manuscripts—recognized as the authoritative texts in traditional Jewish thought—where instead of ka’ari (found in almost all other Masoretic manuscripts) the texts say either ka’aru or karu.

    In conclusion, the Dead Sea scrolls agrees with the picture of the pierced Messiah in the 22nd Psalm, verse 16."
     
  3. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Lol. Good night!
     
  4. Eliyahu52

    Eliyahu52 Member

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    "ka'aru" means "digging", and not "piercing trough". Apart from that, the manuscript doesn't say digging, because for saying that there is a letter to many in the word. Ka'aru would be "K-R-U". However, there is written "K-A-R-U" which is a verb which has no meaning and which doesn't exist in the Tanach.

    The Septuagint is corrupted by the church, so you cannot use that as proof for anything.
    This is freely admitted by the church:

    Here are a few excerpts from the online Catholic Encyclopedia, here to be found:
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/ from the entry "Septuagint" which show the reliability of the LXX:

    The Christians had recourse to it constantly in their controversies with the Jews, who soon recognized its imperfections, and finally rejected it in favour of the Hebrew text or of more literal translations (Aquila, Theodotion).
    .....................
    On account of its diffusion alone the hellenizing Jews and early Christians, copies of the Septuagint were multiplied; and as might be expected, many changes, deliberate as well as involuntary, crept in.
    ...............
    The Septuagint Version, while giving exactly as to the form and substance the true sense of the Sacred Books, differs nevertheless considerably from our present Hebrew text.
    ...................
    Again, we must not think that we have at present the Greek text exactly as it was written by the translators; the frequent transcriptions during the early centuries, as well as the corrections and editions of Origen, Lucian, and Hesychius impaired the purity of the text: voluntarily or involuntarily the copyists allowed many textual corruptions, transpositions, additions, and omissions to creep into the primitive text of the Septuagint.

    So the Catholics openly admit they corrupted the LXX.

    Again: The manuscript doesn't say digging, because for saying that there is a letter to many in the word. Ka'aru would be "K-R-U". However, there is written "K-A-R-U" which is a verb which has no meaning and which doesn't exist in the Tanach.



    No they do not, because there is not written there anything that means anything.

    And the particular scroll is full of mistakes, also the word "hands" right after "like the lion" is misspelled.
     
  5. Eliyahu52

    Eliyahu52 Member

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    Bs"d

    There is no "piercing" in Psalm 22.

    On top of that, neither Psalm 22, nor Isaiah 53 or Zech 12:10 speak about the messiah.

    For Isaiah 53 look here: http://Isaiah53.notlong.com

    For Zech 12:10 look here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/et-asher

    Never seen an instance where "את" means "with". Please show some examples.
     
  6. Eliyahu52

    Eliyahu52 Member

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    And there is spoken about Zerubabel.

    In Zechariah the branch is Zerubabel. See chapter 6: "The word of the Lord came to me: 10 “Take silver and gold from the exiles Heldai, Tobijah and Jedaiah, who have arrived from Babylon. Go the same day to the house of Josiah son of Zephaniah. 11 Take the silver and gold and make a crown, and set it on the head of the high priest, Joshua son of Jozadak. 12 Tell him this is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the Lord. 13 It is he who will build the temple of the Lord, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne. And he will be a priest on his throne. And there will be harmony between the two.’"

    So the branch would be ruler and build the Temple of God. Did JC do that? No. He never was a ruler, and he didn't build the Temple.
    Who build the Temple and ruled on his throne? Zerubabel: "So he said to me, “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the Lord Almighty.
    7 “What are you, mighty mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become level ground. Then he will bring out the capstone to shouts of ‘God bless it! God bless it!’”
    8 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 9 “The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this temple; his hands will also complete it. Then you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you."
    Zech 4

    And Zerubabel was a ruler. He did build the Temple. JC was nothing of this all. Therefore this does not speak about JC, but about Zerubabel.
     
  7. Eliyahu52

    Eliyahu52 Member

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    The word כארו doesn't exist in the Tanach. Not a single time.

    And you won't find that word in any Hebrew dictionary.

    It just doesn't exist and it has no meaning.
     
  8. Robban

    Robban -----------

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    Instead of tearing eachother apart over who is right or wrong.

    We should recite Psalms daily.

    If we only understood the power in reciting Psalms we would do nothing else.

    There is nothing that penetrates the heavens without interference as reciting Psalms.

    When done with all ernesty,

    It is pouring out ones self.

    Apart from that the whole discussion is uninteresting.

    Correction,
    uninteresting in as much as it is like a never ending melody,
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  9. Eliyahu52

    Eliyahu52 Member

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    We should do the one, and not refrain from the other.

    People who are wrong need to be corrected. This is a part of "Love your neighbour as yourself".

    There is more to life than only reciting Psalms.

    There are commandments to be fulfilled.

    Please feel free to stay away from it.

    https://tinyurl.com/ecc-12-13
     
  10. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Messiah / Anoited


    The concepts of moshiach, messianism, and of a Messianic Age originated in Judaism, and in the Hebrew Bible; a moshiach (messiah) is a king or High Priest traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil.


    1 Samuel 2:10

    those who oppose the Lord will be broken. The Most High will thunder from heaven; the Lord will judge the ends of the earth. “He will give strength to his king and exalt the horn of his anointed.”

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    1 Samuel 2:35

    I will raise up for myself a faithful priest, who will do according to what is in my heart and mind. I will firmly establish his priestly house, and they will minister before my anointed one always.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Isaiah 61:1

    [ The Year of the Lord’s Favor ] The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Daniel 9:25

    “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Daniel 9:26

    After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Luke 4:18

    “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
     
  11. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    The Temple


    Isaiah 60:11
    Your gates will always stand open, they will never be shut, day or night, so that people will bring you the wealth of the nations — their kings led in triumphal procession.
    12 For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish; they will be utterly ruined.

    Lamentations 2:6
    And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.
    The Sabbaths mentioned are not the Seventh Day Sabbath.


    Micah 4:1
    In the last days the mountain of the LORD’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and peoples will stream to it.

    Micah 4:2
    Many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.


    Yahshua is Zerubbabel
    Zechariah 4:9
    “The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this temple; his hands will also complete it. Then you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you.

    Zechariah 6:12
    Tell him this is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the LORD.

    Zechariah 6:13
    It is he who will build the temple of the LORD, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne. And he will be a priest on his throne. And there will be harmony between the two.’

    John 2:19
    Yahshua answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

    John 2:21
    But the temple he had spoken of was his body.

    Acts 17:24
    “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands.

    1 Corinthians 3:16
    Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?

    1 Corinthians 3:17
    If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

    1 Corinthians 6:19
    Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

    2 Corinthians 6:16
    What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

    Ephesians 2:21
    In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

    Revelation 3:12
    The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

    Revelation 7:15
    Therefore, “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.

    Revelation 11:1
    I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers.

    Revelation 11:19
    Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.

    Revelation 14:15
    Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”

    Revelation 14:17
    Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle.

    Revelation 15:5
    After this I looked, and I saw in heaven the temple—that is, the [tabernacle [dwelling for] of the covenant law—and it was opened.

    Revelation 15:6
    Out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests.

    Revelation 15:8
    And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.

    Revelation 16:1
    Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.”

    Revelation 16:17
    The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

    Revelation 21:22
    I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.




    John 4:20-21
    "20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship." 21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father."

    Hebrews 12:21
    But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of messengers in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Yahshua the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

    Galatians 4:27
    These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.




    1 Peter 2:5

    The Living Stone and a Chosen People

    4 As you come to him, The Living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Yahshua Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:

    “See, I lay a stone in Zion,
    a chosen and precious cornerstone,
    and the one who trusts in him
    will never be put to shame.”

    The Last Days do not come to an end until the end of the thousand year reign.

    The temple is seen overhead in heaven.

    Yahwah is our Foundational Rock and Yahshua is our Capstone.
     
  12. Eliyahu52

    Eliyahu52 Member

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    A messiah is an anointed person. Kings and High Priests were anointed at their inauguration by a prophet or a priest.

    It is important to keep in mind that this has never been done with JC, so he was never an anointed one, he was never a messiah.

    Wrong translation, as usual. It does not say there THE anointed one, but "AN anointed one"

    For Daniel 9 look here: http://tinyurl.com/Daniel9E

    https://tinyurl.com/ecc-12-13
     
  13. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    God proclaimed Yahshua His Anointed, so that is good enough for me.
     
  14. Robban

    Robban -----------

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    The Rebbe,s words pierced the innermost point of the Chassid,s heart
    and he fell full length in a dead faint.
     
  15. Robban

    Robban -----------

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    I,ll stick with Rabbi Menachem Mendel,s version of "Love your fellow as yourself."

    Just like you are blind to your own failings,

    your self-love covers them up, so too,

    should your fellow,s failings be swallowed up and concealed by your love for him.
     
  16. afishamongmany

    afishamongmany Oldbie Supporter

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    Hi Eliyahu thanks for your response – I think you over do the translation references a bit. Three or four references, or even just saying something like, “The majority of english translations say, “-----”, would suffice to make your point.
    So you say,
    “To begin with; the Psalms are not prophetic writings. …. This is king David speaking about himself. This Psalm is written mainly in the past tense, and describes the tribulations King David went through.”
    This surprises me! You're saying that Psalm 2 is not prophecy? Genesis 3:15 is not prophecy? What are they then?
    You say King David is speaking about himself. When ,where, how did he experience those things described in Psalm 22?

    Now as to the word in verse 16 of Psalm 22 that you say should be translated 'as a lion' but others translate as 'pierced'. Your knowledge of Hebrew far out weighs mine but I know that there are those who also have a good understanding of the language and texts who argue persuasively for 'pierced'.
    “As lions – hands of me – feet of me.”? In any language this doesn't make much sense. I've never been attacked by a lion but I'm fairly sure they don't pussyfoot around chewing hands and feet. Meditating on Psalm 34:19,20 also helps our understanding of 22:16.

    The important point Eliyahu, is that this discussion does not pivot or hang on the disputed translations of one or even several words. The inspired word of God is a whole, it is self illuminating. Psalm 22 gives light to Isaiah, Isaiah gives light to the Psalms, gives light to the all the Prophets - Psalm 119:130.
    The point we are disputing in this thread is whether any of those scriptures that speak of a 'suffering servant' refer to an atoning, eternal saviour or only to the collective Israel and some of its past, imperfect individuals.
    At the beginning of this thread (yeshuaslavejeff #125 helpfully and pertinently requotes) and here - https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-or-the-messiah-part-2.7927727/#post-69123209
    and here - https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-or-the-messiah-part-3.7932967/#post-69268313
    I have set out the arguments from the text for the eternal, atoning saviour/suffering servant being The Messiah, an individual. Those arguments still stand.
    God bless you.
    ><>
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
  17. afishamongmany

    afishamongmany Oldbie Supporter

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    Those who repent and believe receive forgiveness and eternal life. But a spotless lamb was necessary to make atonement so this could be, without God's holiness and justice being compromised.
    ><>
     
  18. afishamongmany

    afishamongmany Oldbie Supporter

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    No that's not what I'm saying :)
    I'm saying that just as the heavens declare the glory of God but men still ask for proof, so The Tanach declares the glory of His redemptive suffering in the person of The Messiah but men still ask for proof.
    God bless us
    ><>
     
  19. Eliyahu52

    Eliyahu52 Member

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    Was JC a lamb?

    https://tinyurl.com/Zech-8-23
     
  20. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Was and Is...symbolic of the old animal sacrifices. He was a spotless sacrifice that ended all literal sacrifices forever.
     
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