Isaiah 52-53 ~ Israel or The Messiah?

Robban

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I accept what the NT says about it.




The context is concerning Israel but would apply universally to all who would accept him as Messiah.



Anything in scripture to support these things?




The Mishna is not scripture though.




Except chp 53 speaks of one:

sa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

You would have to look at the Code of Jewish Law ,
the point being that on this issue Judaism departs radically from other
World religions.
So it is not just a matter of accepting.

Though in the NT it not just a walkover either,
 
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gord44

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Today there are about 350,000 Messianic Jews worldwide who believe that Isaiah 52 and 53 speak about Yeshua ha Mashiach. That should give other Jews some food for thought.

That some people lack discernment when it comes to their religion?
 
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Ok dear people, the boat is rocking but still sailing. Hot winds but at least some effort at cool reason.
I've dithered as to whether to put part 2 here or start a fresh thread. Fresh thread gets to go.
I would say that Robban's post -
It is absolutely not off topic,
Am I right in thinking you are suggesting that Isaiah 53 is a prophesy concerning
some one who is going to die for your sins?
For me it is not so.
The only sin that is unforgiveable is,
if some one does me harm in some way and then repents sincerely,
and I for some reason do not, cannot or will not forgive him,
his sin remains.
God fogives any sin He can, but He does not forgive those He "cannot".

brings to the fore the real bone of contention. Text analysis is necessary and important but for both Jew and Gentile an important and necessary question has to be, Does our theology inform the text or visa versa? The theology is where it's at. What we all really want is to know and understanding The Living God. Isn't it??
Lo Ammi's jibe -
Since you have no desire to actually learn about Judaism
,
has some substance. Surely for Christians a desire to know and understand the people of our Lord Jesus, their culture and theology, should be on our hearts?
God bless us all
><>
 
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Eliyahu52

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Which is totally irrelevant. Isaiah 52 and 53 are about the Messiah. The ancient rabbis applied these passages to the Messiah (as well as many others). For confirmation see The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah by Alfred Edersheim (a Hebrew Christian who had a total grasp of rabbinic writings).
Bs"d

Can somebody now give some proof FROM THE TANACH (so not from the NT, not from rabbis, not from church fathers) that the suffering servant is the messiah?

Thanks.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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What message was Jonah given to proclaim unto the great Gentile city of Nineveh?
The Calling is not so much bringing Torah to the World,
but bringing the World to Torah.
By being a light unto the nations.
One should not act in such a manner that causes another to hate
the One who is being served.
The NT has a "Great commision"
Torah has also what may be considered a great commision of sorts,
"Uforatzta"

Gen 28:13-15
I love the book of Jonah, especially since our savior the Lord Jesus mentions him a few times.

Jonah 3:
6 And the word is touching to King of Nineveh and he is rising from his throne and is transferring robe of him from on him and sackcloth is covering and he is sitting on the ash
10 And the Elohim is seeing the deeds of them, that they turn back way of them the evil
and the Elohim is regretting on the evil which He spoke to do of to them and not He did.

Jesus gives the men of Nineveh casual mention here in Matt and Luke.
It seems the men of Nineveh are going to be rising up against that evil generation.....interesting

Matthew 12:41
"Men Ninevites shall be resurrecting/standing-up in the judging with this generation, and shall be condemning it.
That they repent/reform into the proclamation of Jonah, and behold! more of Jonah here.

Luke 11

30 for as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also shall the Son of Man be to this generation.
31 ‘A queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and shall condemn them, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and lo, greater than Solomon here!
32Men of Nineveh shall be resurrecting/standing-up in the judgment with this generation, and shall be condemning it,
because they reform/repent at the proclamation of Jonah;
and behold! greater than Jonah here!

I actually have a thread started on Jonah over here:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/what-about-jonah.8067726/
 
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Robban

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I love the book of Jonah, especially since our savior the Lord Jesus mentions him a few times.

Jonah 3:
6 And the word is touching to King of Nineveh and he is rising from his throne and is transferring robe of him from on him and sackcloth is covering and he is sitting on the ash
10 And the Elohim is seeing the deeds of them, that they turn back way of them the evil
and the Elohim is regretting on the evil which He spoke to do of to them and not He did.

Jesus gives the men of Nineveh casual mention here in Matt and Luke.
It seems the men of Nineveh are going to be rising up against that evil generation.....interesting

Matthew 12:41
"Men Ninevites shall be resurrecting/standing-up in the judging with this generation, and shall be condemning it.
That they repent/reform into the proclamation of Jonah, and behold! more of Jonah here.

Luke 11

30 for as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also shall the Son of Man be to this generation.
31 ‘A queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and shall condemn them, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and lo, greater than Solomon here!
32Men of Nineveh shall be resurrecting/standing-up in the judgment with this generation, and shall be condemning it,
because they reform/repent at the proclamation of Jonah;
and behold! greater than Jonah here!

I actually have a thread started on Jonah over here:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/what-about-jonah.8067726/

Jonah is also named in 2 Kings 14:25,

he annointed Jehu,

Jonah 4:11 however shows who gets the last word.

Also serves as a lesson,
Even one of great spiritual stature should realize that,

all is in the hands of God.
 
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CherubRam

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Bs"d

Can somebody now give some proof FROM THE TANACH (so not from the NT, not from rabbis, not from church fathers) that the suffering servant is the messiah?

Thanks.
“We despised and held him of no account” (53:3).

“despised, afflicted” (54:6-11), and oppressed “without cause” (52:4) at the hands of the gentile nations.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Do any of you remember Muffler Dragon.
He started a thread on Isaiah 53.
This was not too long after I joined so I got a little anxious in some posts.


https://www.christianforums.com/threads/isaiah-53-a-contextual-discussion.5858522/

Isaiah 53: A Contextual Discussion
quote:
I had written this some time ago, and I'll let it be part of the OP again:

As we look at the book of Isaiah, we should first make mention of the fact that the division of the Bible into chapters and verses is only for finding; not for determining theology.

I bring this to attention, because of the continuity that we find within the book of Isaiah.

I would like to present the following verses to form a foundation.

Isaiah 41
8. But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me, 9. Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from its nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant"; I chose you and I did not despise you.

Isaiah 42
19. Who is blind but My servant, and deaf as My messenger whom I will send? He who was blind is as the one who received his payment, and he who was blind is as the servant of the Lord.
20. There is much to see but you do not observe, to open the ears but no one listens.

Isaiah 43
10. "You are My witnesses," says the Lord, "and My servant whom I chose," in order that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me no god was formed and after Me none shall be.

Isaiah 44
1. And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen. 2. So said HaShem your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen.

Isaiah 44
21. "Remember these things, O Jacob, for you are my servant, O Israel. I have made you, you are my servant; O Israel, I will not forget you.

Isaiah 45
4. For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name; I surnamed you, yet you have not known Me.

Isaiah 49
3. And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."

Isaiah 49
7. This is what HaShem says- the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel- to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers: "Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of HaShem , who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you."

This is even consistent outside of Isaiah.

Jeremiah 30
10. And you, fear not, My servant Jacob, says the Lord, and do not be dismayed, O Israel, for behold I save you from afar and your seed from the land of their captivity, and Jacob shall again be silent and at ease, and no one will frighten them.
11. For I am with you, says the Lord, to save you, for I will make an end of all the nations where I dispersed you, but of you I will not make an end, but I will chasten you in measure, and I will not completely destroy you.
12. For so said the Lord: Your injury is painful, your wound grievous.
13. No one deems your wound to be healed, you have no healing medicines.
14. All your lovers have forgotten you, they do not seek you, for I have smitten you with the wound of an enemy, cruel chastisement, for the greatness of your iniquity; your sins are many.
15. Why do you cry about your injury [that] your pain is severe? For the magnitude of your iniquity, [since] your sins are many, I have done these to you.
16. Therefore, all who devour you shall be devoured, and all your adversaries, yea all of them, shall go into captivity, and those who plunder you shall be plunder, and all who prey upon you I will give for prey.
17. For I will bring healing to you, and of your wounds I will heal you, says the Lord, for they called you an outcast, that is Zion whom no one seeks out.

And now, we come to the text of debate:

Isaiah 52:13-15:12
13. Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.
14. As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"
15. So shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.
1. Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
2. And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?
3. Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.
4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.
5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.
6. We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.
7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.
8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
9. And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
11. From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.
12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

So, we see from nine occasions outside of Isaiah 52-53 that Israel/Jacob is referred to as the "Servant". This is the context of the passage that proceeds. Does it not stand to reason that all situations are synonymous? The similarities, not only in grammar, but also in detail are very interesting between the Jeremiah passage and the Isaiah passage.
Another key note of interest in this entire passage, and all that have been expressed is that there is a complete absence of "Messiah". There is no inference; nor overt statement regarding these passages as being Messianic.

The following conclusions can be made from what has been expressed above:

1) Contextually, the "Servant" is Israel/Jacob.
2) These passages are not Messianic.

The following is provided by an acquaintance of mine the delves into the surrounding context as well:

1. Israel is described as God's servant (Isa 41:8, etc.) who is afflicted and oppressed in Isaiah 49:13, 51:21, 54:11-15, and 60:14-15.

2. Israel is described as being led like sheep to slaughter in Psalm 44:23.

Psalm 44
23. For it is for Your sake that we are killed all the time, [that] we are considered as sheep for the slaughter

3. Israel is promised future exaltation with seed and long life in Isaiah 60, 61, 65, etc.

These are just some examples to show how the servant of Isaiah 53 can be shown with scriptural evidence to be Israel. Israel is explicitly identified in the above passages as bearing the very same characteristics of the servant of Isaiah 53.
Click to expand...
This opens up the surrounding context of Isaiah 53. After this topic has been exhausted, we can discuss the internal context.
 
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Robban

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“We despised and held him of no account” (53:3).

“despised, afflicted” (54:6-11), and oppressed “without cause” (52:4) at the hands of the gentile nations.

One thing that should be taken into considaration, often Israel is mentioned as one,
It is a soulmatter.
"The entire people of Israel comprise a single soul, only the bodies seperate"

Like a bicycle wheel, at the outer rim the spokes are seperated,
but at the center they are as one.
 
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Eliyahu52

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“We despised and held him of no account” (53:3).

“despised, afflicted” (54:6-11), and oppressed “without cause” (52:4) at the hands of the gentile nations.
Bs"d

And why do you think that these verses proof that it speaks about the messiah?
 
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CherubRam

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Bs"d

And why do you think that these verses proof that it speaks about the messiah?

Isaiah 52
The Suffering and Glory of the Servant

13 See, my servant will act wisely;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him —
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness —
15 so he will sprinkle many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.
 
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Eliyahu52

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No one doubts that Israel was God's servant, but there are also other servants.
Bs"d

No doubt others than Israel are called "servant of God", but Israel the most, and the amount of times that the messiah is called "the servant of God" in the book of Isaiah or in the rest of the Tanach is a nice round number: 0.

https://tinyurl.com/Zech-8-23
 
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Eliyahu52

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Isaiah 52
The Suffering and Glory of the Servant

13 See, my servant will act wisely;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him —
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness —
15 so he will sprinkle many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.
Bs"d

And what proof or even indications do you have that these verses speak about the messiah?

http://Isaiah53.notlong.com
 
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Bs"d

Can somebody now give some proof FROM THE TANACH (so not from the NT, not from rabbis, not from church fathers) that the suffering servant is the messiah?

Thanks.

Hello Eliyahu - Well it was a surprise to see my thread pop back up after all this time!
Baruch Hashem indeed!
So two questions - Are you really 103 years old? If so, well done and baruch Hashem.
Did you actually read through the thread? Isaiah is FROM THE TANACH, no?
As to 'proof', well the heavens declare the glory of God but can you prove it?
I understand well that jewish theology believes that everything in the Old Testament that speaks of The Suffering Servant refers to Israel, the jewish people as a collective but there are numerous places where an individual is being spoken of.
What is your understanding of Zechariah 10:12, 13:17 and Psalm 22:14-18?
Underlying the jewish rejection of The Messiah being a suffering servant as well as a conquering king is a refusal to get to grips with the theology of sin. How will any, Jew or Gentile, escape the certain just condemnation and judgement of their sinfulness?
Baruch Hashem
><>
 
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Eliyahu52

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Hello Eliyahu - Well it was a surprise to see my thread pop back up after all this time!
Baruch Hashem indeed!
So two questions - Are you really 103 years old? If so, well done and baruch Hashem.

Bs"d

Don't take that age too seriously. I'm a bit younger. :)

Did you actually read through the thread? Isaiah is FROM THE TANACH, no?

Yes it is.

As to 'proof', well the heavens declare the glory of God but can you prove it?
I understand well that jewish theology believes that everything in the Old Testament that speaks of The Suffering Servant refers to Israel, the jewish people as a collective but there are numerous places where an individual is being spoken of.

The suffering servant is Israel. But sometimes somebody else, for instance king David, is called a "servant of God".

What is your understanding of Zechariah 10:12

See here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/et-asher


Zech 13 does not have a verse 17.

and Psalm 22:14-18?

To begin with; the Psalms are not prophetic writings. Also Psalm 22 does not claim to prophesize about the messiah. It is nowhere written: The messiah will come and he will call out during his execution: My God, my God, why did you forsake me? This is king David speaking about himself. This Psalm is written mainly in the past tense, and describes the tribulations King David went through. But, as shown before, the authentic messianic prophecies are NOT fulfilled by Jesus, and therefore Christianity has to resort to Biblical texts that have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, and present them as messianic prophecies. Because of the fact that, according the NT, Jesus quoted Psalms during his execution, the Christians claim that this Psalm must be a prophecy about the messiah. An upside down proof based upon nothing. And even that is not enough. In order to make it a little more authentic Christianity squeezed in the infamous falsification about the “piercing of hand and feet”. See verse 16: “Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet.” They say: “Look! Here is the crucifixion, prophesized in the Psalms!”

Point one: It is not written here that that the hands and feet of the messiah would be pierced. Like I pointed out: King David speaks here about himself, and that in the past tense. And on top of that: there is no such a thing as “they pierced my hand an feet”. The Hebrew word that is here translated as 'pierced' is 'ka'arie'. There is no word that even comes close to ka'arie that means piercing. To call this a mistranslation is too euphemistic, we should call this just what it is; another Christian falsification of their Bible translations, in order to squeeze in JC. The word that comes the closest is 'karah', but it is impossible to fit that in here, because that would violate almost every rule in the Hebrew grammar. And besides that, karah does not mean piercing, but 'to dig up, to bring up from the ground' (in the sense of mining)

The Hebrew prefix 'ka' means: 'as the', and the Hebrew word 'arie' means 'lion'. So what it says here is: "Like the lion [they are at] my hands and feet." The text between the square brackets is my insertion. So King David, who is not prophesizing about the messiah here, is speaking about a lion, and not about piercing hands and feet. The same lion he speaks about in verse 13 and 21.

Also the modern day Bible translations translate this in the wrong way. I could find only one Christian Bible translation who translates this verse in the right way, and that is the translation of the Y-H-V-H witnesses. But at least the modern Bible translations have the decency to write that there is no such thing in the Hebrew text.

My edition of the Revised Standard Version has a footnote with the word pierced in verse 16, it says there: "Gk Syr Jerome: Heb like a lion" That means that the translators get the word “pierced” from the ancient Greek translation; the Septuaginth, and from the Syriac translation, and from the Vulgata, the Catholic translation of the Bible into Latin, made by Jerome, on the request of Pope Damascus, in 328 CE. But this: “Heb like a lion” means that they admit that in the Hebrew is written: Like a lion.

Here is the footnote of the New American Standard Bible Update (1995): "Another reading is like a lion, my..."

And here is the footnote of the New International Version: "Some Hebrew manuscripts, Septuagint and Syriac; most Hebrew manuscripts: 'like the lion,"

What the Bible translators are doing here is ignoring the original Hebrew Bible, and translating translations instead, because that fits the Christian theology better.

But the exact same word "ka'arie" is used in Isaiah 38:13. This claim can be checked out by people who cannot read Hebrew, by means of the Christian Hebrew-English interlinear, that is a Hebrew text of the Tanach, (OT), with under each word an English translation. Provided by a Christian institution. Look here: www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm and look there how it is translated there. It is possible to zoom into the text.
On the right side of the Hebrew text is a normal English translation. Now look at the discrepancy between how the Hebrew is translated right underneath, and how it is translated in the text on the right side. VERY educational!


And look here how the English translations translate the word "ka'arie" in Isaiah 38:11;

New International Version “I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones;”

ew American Standard Bible: “I composed my soul until morning. Like a lion--so He breaks all my bones,”

The Message: “I cry for help until morning. Like a lion, God pummels and pounds me,”

Amplified Bible: “I thought and quieted myself until morning. Like a lion He breaks all my bones;”

New Living Translation: “I waited patiently all night, but I was torn apart as though by lions.”

King James Version: “I reckoned till morning, that, as a lion, so will he break all my bones:”

English Standard Version: “I calmed myself until morning; like a lion he breaks all my bones;”

Contemporary English Version: “Until morning came, I thought you would crush my bones just like a hungry lion;”

New King James Version: “ I have considered until morning-- Like a lion, So He breaks all my bones;”

New Century Version: "I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones"

21st Century King James Version: “I reckoned till morning that, as a lion, so will He break all my bones;”

American Standard Version: “I quieted myself until morning; as a lion, so he breaketh all my bones:”

Young's Literal Translation: “I have set [Him] till morning as a lion, So doth He break all my bones,”

Darby Translation: “I kept still until the morning; ... as a lion, so doth he break all my bones.”

Revised Standard version: “I cry for help until morning; like a lion he breaks all my bones;”



Another place where we see the word "ka'arie" is in Numbers 24:9. See here how it is there translated:

New International Version “Like a lion they crouch and lie down"

New American Standard Bible: “He crouches, he lies down as a lion"

The Message: “Israel crouches like a lion and naps"

Amplified Bible: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"

New Living Translation: “Like a lion, Israel crouches and lies down"

King James Version: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"

English Standard Version: “He crouched, he lay down like a lion"

Contemporary English Version: “Like a lion you lie down"

New King James Version: “He bows down, he lies down as a lion"

New Century Version: “Like a lion, they lie waiting to attack"

21th Century King James Version: "He couched, he lay down as a lion"

American Standard Version: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"

Young's Literal Translation: “He hath bent, he hath lain down as a lion"

Darby Translation: “He stooped, he lay down like a lion"

Revised Standard version: “He couched, he lay down like a lion"

To be continued.
 
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Eliyahu52

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Bs"d

Continuation



Also in Ezechiel 22:25 we encounter the same word "ka'arie", followed by the word "sho'eig", which means "roaring".

See here how that is translated:Ezekiel 22:25 KJ21
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey.

Ezekiel 22:25 ASV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey:

Ezekiel 22:25 AMP
There is a conspiracy of [Israel’s false] prophets in the midst of her, like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 CEB
The conspiracy of princes in her is like a roaring lion ripping up prey.

Ezekiel 22:25 CJB
There is a conspiracy of prophets in it like a roaring lion tearing up the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 CEV
Their leaders are like roaring lions, tearing apart their victims.

Ezekiel 22:25 DARBY
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst of her like a roaring lion ravening the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 DRA
There is a conspiracy of prophets in the midst thereof: like a lion that roareth and catcheth the prey,

Ezekiel 22:25 ERV
The prophets in Jerusalem are making evil plans. They are like a lion—it roars when it begins to eat the animal it
caught.

Ezekiel 22:25 ESV
The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 ESVUK
The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 EXB
Like a roaring lion that tears ·the animal it has caught [its prey], Israel’s ·rulers [princes] ·make evil plans [conspire].

Ezekiel 22:25 GNV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof like a roaring lion, ravening the prey:

Ezekiel 22:25 GW
Your princes are like roaring lions who tear their prey into pieces.

Ezekiel 22:25 GNT
The leaders are like lions roaring over the animals they have killed.

Ezekiel 22:25 HCSB
The conspiracy of her prophets within her is like a roaring lion tearing its prey:

Ezekiel 22:25 KJV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 AKJV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey;

Ezechiel 22: KNOX
What of the prophets? A sworn conspiracy; lions roaring for their prey, the lives of men;

Ezekiel 22:25 LEB
The conspiracy of its prophets in the midst of her is like a roaring lion that is tearing prey.

Ezekiel 22:2523- MSG
The leaders among you became desperate, like roaring, ravaging lions killing indiscriminately.

Ezekiel 22:25 NOG
Your princes are like roaring lions who tear their prey into pieces.

Ezekiel 22:25 NASB
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in her midst like a roaring lion tearing the prey.

Ezekiel 22:25 NCV
Like a roaring lion that tears the animal it has caught, Israel’s rulers make evil plans.

Ezekiel 22:25 NET
Her princes within her are like a roaring lion tearing its prey; they have devoured lives.

Ezekiel 22:25 NIRV
“Ezekiel, the princes of the land are like a roaring lion that tears its food apart.

Ezekiel 22:25 NIV
There is a conspiracy of her princes within her like a roaring lion tearing its prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 NIVUK
There is a conspiracy of her princes within her like a roaring lion tearing its prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 NKJV
The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 NLV
Israel’s false religious leaders are making plans within her. They are like a lion making noise over the food it has killed.

Ezekiel 22:25 NLT
Your princes plot conspiracies just as lions stalk their prey.

Ezekiel 22:25 NRSV
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 NRSVA
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 NRSVACE
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 NRSVCE
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Yechezkel 22: OJB
There is a kesher of her nevi’im in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 RSV
Her princes in the midst of her are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 RSVCE
Her princes in the midst of her are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 VOICE
Her prophets conspire in her midst like raging lions killing their prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 WEB
There is a conspiracy of her prophets within it, like a roaring lion ravening the prey:

Ezekiel 22:25 WYC
Swearing together, either conspiring, of prophets is in the midst thereof; as a lion roaring and taking prey like a lion roaring and taking prey,

Ezekiel 22:25 YLT
A conspiracy of its prophets [is] in its midst, as a roaring lion tearing prey;


So the translators know very well what "ka'arie" means. It is just that in Psalm 22 (almost) all the Christian Bible translators are collectively struck with blindness, and go astray.

But here we see what “ka’arie” means: “As the lion”, and, more important, we clearly see what is does NOT mean: "piercing".

So in Psalm 22 it does not speak about the final messiah, and not about a crucifixion, and the “piercing” in Psalm 22 is just another Christian falsification of their Bible translations.


Underlying the jewish rejection of The Messiah being a suffering servant as well as a conquering king is a refusal to get to grips with the theology of sin. How will any, Jew or Gentile, escape the certain just condemnation and judgement of their sinfulness?
Baruch Hashem
><>

God will forgive us.

https://tinyurl.com/Zech-8-23
 
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Eliyahu52

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As to 'proof', well the heavens declare the glory of God but can you prove it?
Bs"d

So you are saying that there is no proof from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

Well, since there is a lot of proof from Isaiah that it speaks about Israel, then I guess this debate is settle in favour of the Jewish viewpoint.

Baruch Hashem!

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5
 
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