Isaiah 52-53 ~ Israel or The Messiah?

Eliyahu52

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No that's not what I'm saying :)
I'm saying that just as the heavens declare the glory of God but men still ask for proof, so The Tanach declares the glory of His redemptive suffering in the person of The Messiah but men still ask for proof.
God bless us
><>
Bs"d

Believing without proof is silly. Then you might as well start to believe in Mohammed or whoever.

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5
 
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Eliyahu52

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Was and Is...

Bs"d

Now you say that a human being is a lamb.

You are starting to talk nonsense.

I can't take you seriously any more.

symbolic of the old animal sacrifices. He was a spotless sacrifice

Human sacrifices are totally forbidden.

Then tell me why the prophets say that in the messianic era again animal sacrifices will be brought.

https://tinyurl.com/Zech-8-23
 
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ewq1938

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Bs"d

Now you say that a human being is a lamb.

You are starting to talk nonsense.

I can't take you seriously any more.

Yet, I said no such thing...why should I take you seriously when you misrepresent what I have said?
 
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Eliyahu52

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“To begin with; the Psalms are not prophetic writings. …. This is king David speaking about himself. This Psalm is written mainly in the past tense, and describes the tribulations King David went through.”
This surprises me! You're saying that Psalm 2 is not prophecy?

Bs'd

That's what I'm saying.

Genesis 3:15 is not prophecy?
That is prophecy. But just know WHAT it prophesies:

Gen 3: "Y-H-W-H God said to the serpent, 'Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. 15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.'"

Christianity sees in this vers a messianic prophecy, but also in this verse is no messiah to be found.

It speaks about the "seed of the woman". What is the seed of the woman? All mankind.

It speaks also about the seed of the snake. What is the seed of the snake? Many more snakes.

So what is written here is that God will put enmity between men and snakes. Snakes will bit men in the legs, and men will kill snakes. That is all what is written here.

No messiah to be seen.

Only in the over-heated Christian fantasy can this be seen as a messianic prophecy.

What are they then?

The Psalms are praise to God. David was not a prophet.

You say King David is speaking about himself. When ,where, how did he experience those things described in Psalm 22?

During his lifetime.

Now as to the word in verse 16 of Psalm 22 that you say should be translated 'as a lion' but others translate as 'pierced'. Your knowledge of Hebrew far out weighs mine but I know that there are those who also have a good understanding of the language and texts who argue persuasively for 'pierced'.
“As lions – hands of me – feet of me.”? In any language this doesn't make much sense.

So therefore some words have to be inserted to make normal English out of it. That's the nature of Hebrew, it is written in a sort of shorthand. Therefore, all over the place words have to be inserted to make normal English out of it.
Take the first sentence of Psalm 22, there it says in the Hebrew: "My God, why did you forsake me? Far from my salvation words of my roaring." The only way to make normal English out of that is to insert words.
The KJV writes all these inserted words in italics. Now look in the KJV at Psalm 22, and then you see that in that one Psalm there are about 33 words inserted. So that you have to insert words in that sentence is not strange.

I've never been attacked by a lion but I'm fairly sure they don't pussyfoot around chewing hands and feet. Meditating on Psalm 34:19,20 also helps our understanding of 22:16.

"I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted within Me."

I have never been poured out like water. And my heart never melted like wax. I think it is quite obvious that we shouldn't take everything here literal.

I have set out the arguments from the text for the eternal, atoning saviour/suffering servant being The Messiah, an individual. Those arguments still stand.

I must have missed those. Please tell me on which page which post nr I can find these arguments.

God bless you.

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5
 
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Eliyahu52

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Yet, I said no such thing...why should I take you seriously when you misrepresent what I have said?

Bs"d

In post 157 you say: "a spotless lamb was necessary to make atonement"
In post 159 I ask: "Was JC a lamb?"
In post 160 you answer on that: "Was and Is..."

So don't try to weazle out of the fact that you said that JC was a lamb.

https://tinyurl.com/ecc-12-13
 
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ewq1938

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In post 160 you answer on that: "Was and Is..."

So don't try to weazle out of the fact that you said that JC was a lamb.

Who is the "weazle" here?

You quote post 160 BUT quote it out of context by quoting a small part. That is DISHONEST.

The real quote, "Was and Is...symbolic of the old animal sacrifices. He was a spotless sacrifice that ended all literal sacrifices forever."

Do you know what the word "symbolic" means?
 
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Eliyahu52

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Who is the "weazle" here?

You quote post 160 BUT quote it out of context by quoting a small part. That is DISHONEST.

The real quote, "Was and Is...symbolic of the old animal sacrifices. He was a spotless sacrifice that ended all literal sacrifices forever."

Do you know what the word "symbolic" means?
Bs"d

So now you say JC was not a lamb. So then he could not have been a sacrifice, because human sacrifices are strictly forbidden.

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5
 
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ewq1938

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Bs"d

So now you say JC was not a lamb. So then he could not have been a sacrifice, because human sacrifices are strictly forbidden.

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5

Are you a dishonest person?
 
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19 And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” …......
29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” 32 And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”

John1

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Dirk1540

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It’s not an either or. The servant of the Lord sometimes refers to the nation Israel, sometimes refers to an individual representative of Israel, and sometimes refers to a righteous remnant of the nation...and sometimes the distinction isn’t clear.

The reference as the servant refering to the people ends by Isaiah 49, and the reference to the servant as an individual runs through chapters 49-53. For the chapters in question (52-53) the national interpretation isn’t found anywhere in the Talmuds, Targums, or the midrashim. Not found in any traditional Jewish sources until the 11th century C.E.
 
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Robban

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It’s not an either or. The servant of the Lord sometimes refers to the nation Israel, sometimes refers to an individual representative of Israel, and sometimes refers to a righteous remnant of the nation...and sometimes the distinction isn’t clear.

The reference as the servant refering to the people ends by Isaiah 49, and the reference to the servant as an individual runs through chapters 49-53. For the chapters in question (52-53) the national interpretation isn’t found anywhere in the Talmuds, Targums, or the midrashim. Not found in any traditional Jewish sources until the 11th century C.E.

Genesis 25:23.
"One nation will struggle against the other."
 
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Eliyahu52

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It’s not an either or. The servant of the Lord sometimes refers to the nation Israel, sometimes refers to an individual representative of Israel, and sometimes refers to a righteous remnant of the nation...and sometimes the distinction isn’t clear.

Bs"d

But it NEVER refers to the messiah.
The reference as the servant refering to the people ends by Isaiah 49, and the reference to the servant as an individual runs through chapters 49-53. For the chapters in question (52-53) the national interpretation isn’t found anywhere in the Talmuds, Targums, or the midrashim. Not found in any traditional Jewish sources until the 11th century C.E.

Who tells you this idiocy??

Long before Rashi in the year 1000 the Jewish reading of Isaiah 53 was that it speaks about Israel.

In the Midrash Rabbah on Numbers it is clearly written that the suffering servant is ISRAEL.

In the Talmud, finished about the year 500, in tractate Brachot 5A, is at least three mentioned that the suffering servant is ISRAEL.

The Targum Jonathan ben Uzziel from the first century says in his comment on Isaiah 53 several times that the suffering servant is Israel.

And then there is of course the Christian father of the church, Origen, born in the year 185, who says in a debat with wise Jewish men, that they hold the opinion that the suffering servant is ISRAEL.

He says so in his book "Contra Celsus", that book can be found online here:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0416.htm

Look in book 1, the end of chapter 54, and the beginning of 55. There he writes: "But He was wounded for our sins, and bruised for our iniquities. The chastisement of our peace was upon Him; by His stripes we were healed. We all, like sheep, wandered from the way. A man wandered in his way, and the Lord delivered Him on account of our sins; and He, because of His evil treatment, opens not His mouth. As a sheep was He led to slaughter; and as a lamb before her shearer is dumb, so He opens not His mouth. In His humiliation His judgment was taken away. And who shall describe His generation? because His life is taken away from the earth; because of the iniquities of My people was He led unto death." Now I remember that, on one occasion, at a disputation held with certain Jews, who were reckoned wise men, I quoted these prophecies; to which my Jewish opponent replied, that these predictions bore reference to the whole people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations."

This is very clear, Origen, debating Jews, is told by those Jews, who are considered wise men, that Isaiah 53 speaks about ISRAEL.

So not the messiah, but ISRAEL.

In the very beginning of Chrisitianity.

For BIBLICAL proof that Isaiah 53 speaks about the Jewish people, look here: http://Isaiah53.notlong.com
 
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Eliyahu52

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19 And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” …......
29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” 32 And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”

John1

Bs"d

So according to you JC was an animal, and not a man?

https://tinyurl.com/do-not-abuse
 
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Dirk1540

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Who tells you this idiocy??

Long before Rashi in the year 1000 the Jewish reading of Isaiah 53 was that it speaks about Israel.

In the Midrash Rabbah on Numbers it is clearly written that the suffering servant is ISRAEL.

In the Talmud, finished about the year 500, in tractate Brachot 5A, is at least three mentioned that the suffering servant is ISRAEL.

The Targum Jonathan ben Uzziel from the first century says in his comment on Isaiah 53 several times that the suffering servant is Israel.

And then there is of course the Christian father of the church, Origen, born in the year 185, who says in a debat with wise Jewish men, that they hold the opinion that the suffering servant is ISRAEL.

He says so in his book "Contra Celsus", that book can be found online here:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0416.htm

Look in book 1, the end of chapter 54, and the beginning of 55. There he writes: "But He was wounded for our sins, and bruised for our iniquities. The chastisement of our peace was upon Him; by His stripes we were healed. We all, like sheep, wandered from the way. A man wandered in his way, and the Lord delivered Him on account of our sins; and He, because of His evil treatment, opens not His mouth. As a sheep was He led to slaughter; and as a lamb before her shearer is dumb, so He opens not His mouth. In His humiliation His judgment was taken away. And who shall describe His generation? because His life is taken away from the earth; because of the iniquities of My people was He led unto death." Now I remember that, on one occasion, at a disputation held with certain Jews, who were reckoned wise men, I quoted these prophecies; to which my Jewish opponent replied, that these predictions bore reference to the whole people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations."

This is very clear, Origen, debating Jews, is told by those Jews, who are considered wise men, that Isaiah 53 speaks about ISRAEL.

So not the messiah, but ISRAEL.

In the very beginning of Chrisitianity.

For BIBLICAL proof that Isaiah 53 speaks about the Jewish people, look here: http://Isaiah53.notlong.com
Actually, I don't like to blindly throw out something that I'm not familiar with (the absence of it referring to the nation anywhere in Jewish writings), I am not familiar with the Jewish literature...but in this instance I made an exception because I was interested in probing you. I see that you have some lengthy replies, and I hate holding onto something that is false and throwing it out as if it's true (strawman). I will hang on to your reply and will keep it for when I get a chance to confront somebody who is familiar with the literature, and claims this. I don't like just lobbing softballs at people who claim to be experts, it will be good to see how they will respond. This was coming from Dr Michael Brown by the way. I'm sure if I confront him on this he'll have something to say, the man is no stranger to tough rebuttals and is not in the practice of launching strawmen arguments, he really can't afford to considering who he debates. So I find it interesting that he was pretty adamant on this claim.

As for Isaiah. For me this was awhile back, and I had listened to opposing parties hash out the Hebrew translations and the arguments & counter arguments, and in the end I was totally sold that Jesus as the suffering servant made way more sense. I not only don't speak Hebrew, but I'm even rusty on those arguments because it was awhile ago. So as for me taking on an expert in Hebrew on this matter I think I'll pass lol. I'm more qualified as the audience on this debate. I just thought that it was not in dispute at all that the suffering servant ALWAYS referred to the nation, so I tossed out my comment. Just one question then, are you saying that you do believe that it does at times refer to and individual, but that when it does refer to an individual you think that it is in reference to King David?

This actually has me thinking, I wonder which Christian members in here are efficient in Hebrew?? I wouldn't mind sitting in on a few of these threads where both sides know the language very well!! Getting involved is above my paygrade.
 
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ewq1938

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Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

"We" is Israel, him is this other person.


Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Again, the "we" and the "him" are not one and the same! Israel is the "we" and they esteemed "him" not. "him" cannot be Israel.


Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

This singular person will bear the griefs of Israel!


Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

This singular person was wounded for the transgressions of Israel!


Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

"we" is still Israel and the singular person received the inquities of Israel! Who but a Messiah can do that?


Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

The "he" is the suffering servant. It certainly cannot be Israel because they are referred to as "we" (Isaiah's people)

Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.


He died for his people!


Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Just like Jesus Christ! Died next to wicked people, buried in a rich man's grave...didn't so anything wrong to deserve this death.


Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.


His soul was an offering for sin! He was a sin sacrifice just as Christianity claims! This is the Lamb of God, who took on the sins of his people and died for them! And some people claim this is Israel and not a singular person? Not the Messiah?

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

One man will justify many! That "he" cannot be Israel. That doesn't fit in any of this chapter as you can see.

Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Amen. Praise be Jesus Christ, the Messiah promised by God!
 
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Dirk1540

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I vaguely recalled the Michael Brown quote earlier, so in case I misrepresented him I dusted off the material and checked it out. He was only referring to Isaiah 53 when he said that.

He says that even though Isaiah 52:13 onward immediately follows the context of the nation's departure from Babylon, still many traditional Jewish interpreters from the Targum until today had no problem reading Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12 with reference to the Messiah, thus reading this section as distinct.

And he adds that even those traditional Jewish commentators from Rashi, Ibn Ezra, and Radak, to modern orthodox commentators who do interpret it as pointing to Israel as a whole, they still do so with reference to Israel's suffering through the ages up until and past the Holocaust. So part of his point was that almost everyone has the context divorced from the exile that immediately precedes it anyway.

Just wanted to clean up what I say about Dr Brown earlier.
 
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Eliyahu52

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Actually, I don't like to blindly throw out something that I'm not familiar with (the absence of it referring to the nation anywhere in Jewish writings), I am not familiar with the Jewish literature...but in this instance I made an exception because I was interested in probing you. I see that you have some lengthy replies, and I hate holding onto something that is false and throwing it out as if it's true (strawman). I will hang on to your reply and will keep it for when I get a chance to confront somebody who is familiar with the literature, and claims this. I don't like just lobbing softballs at people who claim to be experts, it will be good to see how they will respond. This was coming from Dr Michael Brown by the way. I'm sure if I confront him on this he'll have something to say, the man is no stranger to tough rebuttals and is not in the practice of launching strawmen arguments, he really can't afford to considering who he debates. So I find it interesting that he was pretty adamant on this claim.

That claim about the interpretation of Israel as the servant that that didn't show up before Rashi about 1000 years ago pops up time and again, therefore, the sources I bring, I checked out myself.

And you can check out Origen for yourself, the link to his book is included in my post.

As for Isaiah. For me this was awhile back, and I had listened to opposing parties hash out the Hebrew translations and the arguments & counter arguments, and in the end I was totally sold that Jesus as the suffering servant made way more sense. I not only don't speak Hebrew, but I'm even rusty on those arguments because it was awhile ago. So as for me taking on an expert in Hebrew on this matter I think I'll pass lol. I'm more qualified as the audience on this debate. I just thought that it was not in dispute at all that the suffering servant ALWAYS referred to the nation, so I tossed out my comment. Just one question then, are you saying that you do believe that it does at times refer to and individual, but that when it does refer to an individual you think that it is in reference to King David?

At one point it refers to Zerubabel. Sometimes to Isaiah, sometimes to others. But most of the time to the people of Israel.

And don't forget: NOWHERE in Isaiah, NOWHERE in the whole Hebrew Bible is there any indication, let alone proof, that it speaks about the messiah.

https://tinyurl.com/Zech-8-23
 
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CherubRam

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Bs"d

In post 157 you say: "a spotless lamb was necessary to make atonement"
In post 159 I ask: "Was JC a lamb?"
In post 160 you answer on that: "Was and Is..."

So don't try to weazle out of the fact that you said that JC was a lamb.

https://tinyurl.com/ecc-12-13
Wake up!

Dreams Parables Proverbs Riddles Sayings Visions.


The bible often is written in a parable without giving any indication that it is parabolic.


Numbers 12:8

With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”


Psalm 49:4

I will turn my ear to a proverb; with the harp I will expound my riddle:


Proverbs 1:6

for understanding proverbs and parables, the sayings and riddles of the wise.


Daniel 5:12

He did this because Daniel, whom the king called Belteshazzar, was found to have a keen mind and knowledge and understanding, and also the ability to interpret dreams, explain riddles and solve difficult problems. Call for Daniel, and he will tell you what the writing means.”


Ezekiel 20:49

Then I said, “Sovereign LORD, they are saying of me, ‘Isn’t he just telling parables?’”


Hosea 12:10

I spoke to the prophets, gave them many visions and told parables through them.”


Matthew 13:3

Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed.


Matthew 13:10

The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”


Matthew 13:13

This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.


Matthew 13:34

Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.


Matthew 13:35

So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: “I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.”


Psalm 78

2 I will open my mouth with a parable; I will utter hidden things, things from of old...




Similitude Definition


Similarity and resemblance; also known as synonyms and likeness.


Closely resembling another; a counterpart.


A perceptible likeness.


Archaic. A simile, allegory, or parable.


[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin similitūdō, from similis, like. See similar.]


The quality or state of being alike: affinity, alikeness, analogy, comparison, correspondence, likeness, parallelism, resemblance, similarity, uniformity, uniformness. See: same / different / compare.



Parable Definition


A parable is purposely intended to convey a hidden and secret meaning other than that contained in the words themselves, and which may or may not bear a special reference to the hearer or reader."


A parable, though their significance is not always explicitly stated, though parables are not necessarily hidden or secret, and at times straightforward and obvious. It is the allegory that typically features hidden meanings. The object of a parable is to enlighten the hearer or reader to a case in which the person has no direct concern, and upon which therefore an investigative judgment may be elicited to discover the meaning.



Proverb Definition


A short well-known saying that expresses an obvious truth and often offers advice


Synonyms: maxim, axiom, adage, saying, aphorism, saw, truism, epigram



Riddle Definition


A riddle is a statement or question having a double or veiled meaning, put forth as a puzzle to be solved. Riddles are of two types: enigmas, which are problems generally expressed in metaphorical or allegorical language that require ingenuity and careful thinking for their solution, and conundrums, which are questions relying for their effects on punning in either the question or the answer.



Vision Definition

In spirituality including religion, visions comprise inspirational renderings, generally of a future state and / or of a mythical being, and are believed (by followers of certain religions) to come from a deity, sometimes directly or indirectly via prophets, and serve to inspire or prod believers as part of a revelation or an epiphany. Some take the word vision to be synonymous with apparition.


For religious visions in a literary form, see apocalyptic literature.


Religious visions are generally categorized as miracles.

In addition to the religious visions mentioned, the term vision (theoria) can refer to the experience of God, as the result of common sense.


In spirituality including religion, visions comprise inspirational renderings, generally of a future state and/or of a mythical being, and are believed (by followers of certain religions) to come from a deity, sometimes directly or indirectly via prophets, and serve to inspire believers as part of a revelation or an epiphany.


A dream is an experience during the night while sleeping.


Dream and similar may also refer to:


Daydream, a day vision or kind of fantasy.


Dreams are sequence images, sounds and feelings experienced while sleeping.



Word Association Definition

Word Association is a common exchange of words that are associated together. A logical connection.


Synonyms Definition


Synonyms are words with the same or similar meanings. Words that are synonyms are said to be synonymous, and the state of being a synonym is called synonymy. The word comes from Ancient Greek syn (σύν) ("with") and onoma (ὄνομα) ("name"). An example of synonyms: If talking about a long time or an extended time, long and extended become synonyms. In the figurative sense, two words are often said to be synonymous if they have the same connotation.
 
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